Religion, asexuality, & lesbianism, How do these things tie in?

Posted by: malizmizer Aug 31 2007, 05:02 AM
Is anybody here religious?
How do you deal with your orientation in relation to this subject?

I know a lot of faiths object to same-sex relations, but I wonder, since asexual lesbians probably won't be having sex with one another, whether religious groups would still protest these relationships?
Although some texts have prohibitions against the sexual aspect of such a union, I can't remember anything in the Bible, for instance, prohibiting emotional romantic commitment between females...

Posted by: Carsonspire Aug 31 2007, 11:50 PM
I wouldn't call myself "religious" per se, but I do study and follow many of the principles behind Wicca and Buddhism. Both are fairly welcoming to people of all sexual orientations.

Wicca, especially Dianic Wicca, tends to cater to female spirituality. Dianic Wicca can be particularly attractive to lesbians as it focuses exclusively on the Goddess, and its covens/groups are female-only.

Buddhism doesn't say anything specifically pertaining to sexual orientation; it's mainly concerned with promoting "good" and preventing "harm". Many former Christians have been attracted to Buddhism for its relative lack of homophobia/heterosexism.

On a more personal level, the only time I attend any sort of religious service is when I spend time during holidays with my grandmother, who is a devout Catholic. I'm not out to her as asexual lesbian, nor have I really discussed religion with her on a philosophical level, so the combination of the topics never comes up.

Posted by: Cerridwen Sep 2 2007, 10:38 AM
As keeps becoming clear on AVEN, it's impossible to generalise, even about what different traditions within Christianity believe. Some have specific roles for celibates, others try to insist on marriage, particularly for women. But most of them have trouble with difference. I don't think I would want to "slip under their radar" just by being sexually inactive, because that's a limited view of who we are.

I was brought up as the daughter of a Vicar - that's an Episcopalian Priest - but didn't encounter fundamentalist Christianity until my teens. I used to be more interested in campaigning to change their limited view of humanity (not on my own! I was in Christian Feminist, and Lesbian and Gay Christian, groups). And in the end, of course, I gave up and flounced off to join the Witches, which doesn't help you if you're still involved with them.

Ironically, there's a much loved bible text for American wedding services, which many lesbians eventually pointed out was spoken between two women - Ruth's words to Naomi.

Some formal Wiccan traditions put huge emphasis on the interplay between masculine and feminine energy, which is hard to talk about without writing too long an essay, and I don't engage with that. Among the Pagans I actually hang out with (mostly Reclaiming tradition witchcraft, which partly evolved from Starhawk's writings) there is much greater freedom to be whoever you are, although still a concern that sexual energy is uniquely important, and that I'm "missing out", but not condemnation.

Posted by: Kincaid Sep 4 2007, 03:39 AM
Non-practicing Catholic here. Haven’t attended mass in years! I know that in the Bible, sodomy is considered a sin, but doesn’t really say anything about lesbian sex tongue.gif

Dunno if they object, but my mom (who is very religious) told me that I should enter the convent if I don't get married haha.gif But yea, I think most religious groups see sex as a means to procreate, and if you're not doing that, then you should serve God.

Posted by: cijay Sep 16 2007, 06:45 PM

I grew up in the United Church of Canada (very similar to the Unitarian, as a matter of fact, I don't see any difference) and while I don't consider myself Christian (never baptised, never confirmed, don't declare I believe Jesus to be the Son of God), I'm still involved with the church as far as outreach goes. Of all the Christian churches, it just 'feels best' for me tho' if I had to commit to putting a title on my beliefs, I would call myself Jewish.

United Church itself affirms same-sex relationships, I'm very proud of them for that. I have sent questions/letters to their magazine addressing asexuality but it they haven't been answered. I'll keep you posted.

I reconcile my sexuality by saying simply that God made me this way. He meant to do this. He didn't make me better or worse than anyone else on the planet, he just made me this way and gave me to some great parents who decided I would be Cijay Janet Morgan.

I figured He messed up a bit on the reproductive organ part because they made me very ill until I had some of them removed but He doesn't mess up so He probably said "well, I'll give her these wrecked ones and she can decide if she wants to keep them or get rid of them", so he didn't make me 'perfect', he just made me 'this way'.

It may be a different situaton if God made everyone identical - then you might say that I was defying what He made. For the same reason people of some faith don't cut their hair/shave...because God gave it to them and they're not worthy of deciding that they should have short hair or be clean shaven.

I think the people in the church (the ones I know, anyway) would have a problem with me if they knew of my sexuality. And if they do...I don't care - because God made me this way and He never messes up.

Posted by: Amphioxus Sep 27 2007, 10:36 AM
I study LaVeyan Satanism. (If you don't know what that is, Wikipedia has a good article about it which you can find here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism). In short, it's like atheism and humanism, with a touch of magic and a symbol called "Satan".

It was from a book called "The Satanic Bible" by Anton LaVey that I even found out about asexuality. It was the first place I ever saw the word "asexuality" when referring to humans.
He states (and I paraphrase) that we should be free to have any kind of sex we want, as long as the other person consents and isn't underage, or none, if that is the case.
He also says that asexuality is actually productive, since the person has more time to focus on other activities (and has one less thing to worry about, if I may add).
It might be the first religion which actually educates people about asexuality, as far as I know.

So yes - I've chosen to identify as a Satanist because it pretty much sums up what I believe, and both lesbianism and asexuality are ok with my religion of choice. wink.gif


Posted by: Lex Nov 3 2007, 10:50 PM

Hhhmmmm....
Yeah.
I've been looking into Satanism myself.
I read all about it on Wikipeidia.

I really did like what I read.
It was VERY truthful, and down to earth; pretty much.
From what I remember reading.

And I also found that it was the ONLY religion I found that actually addressed ALL the sexual orientations; or a LOT more then the other religions.
I have to admit. I never liked the other religions, (esp. Christianity, but that's what I was raised in) because they treated their people like mere cattle to be bread. It was as if all the (Christian at least, since this is what I know) religions were only trying to mass produce more of their own.

( What finally got me to turn AGAINST Christiany COMEPLETLY was what I read in the Bible.
I won't mention it but it was the most Perverse thing I've read. EVER.
I've taped the Song "Judith" by A Perfect Circle to the cover of it, something that I've believed for a long time.)

I'm proud to say that, even though I've been so indoctrinated, and brainwashed into believing in and ONLY listening to THAT religion, I have managed to NOT return to the Bible.
So
Small steps.
:-)
*happy RELIEVED! sigh!*


Posted by: Lex Nov 3 2007, 10:54 PM

You've said you were part of Lesbian and Gay Christian groups.
*Hopeful!*
Are there any on the internet?
I've looked and have found NONE.


Even though I'm trying to turn AGAINST Christianity I'm still holding out hope.

Posted by: Kincaid Nov 5 2007, 02:14 AM

IMHO, I think ALL religions share at least one similar goal, to convert people (whether by aggressive or subtle means). Personally, I try not to judge any religion at all. I’m not religious myself, but I do give credit where credit is due. There are some teachings of Christianity that I do agree on, and few of which I don’t. Same goes for Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etc. The “newer” religions are more of a curiosity to me, which I am open to learning more about. But I refuse to stick to one religion... I dislike anything cult-like, to be quite honest, because it seems so restricting to me... I guess you can say I’m more of a free thinker.

Ahh, mayhaps something in the “Old Testament?” If anything, I find stories from the Bible intriguing, to say the least smile.gif

Posted by: Cerridwen Nov 5 2007, 02:50 PM

The main one I know is British (as I am) and is called the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement or LGCM for short. I think their website is LGCM.org.uk, but if that doesn't work, google the initials LGCM. It's about twenty years since I was involved with them but they definitely still exist.

Posted by: chlirissa Jan 30 2008, 12:57 AM

While I am by no means Christian (you have to understand that I was raised by a southern Baptist), there are a couple churches in the states that are gay-friendly.

I suggest you look up Mel White. He was a conservative evangelical who came out after years pf pasturing and was rejected by his church, so he started a new one (I can't remember its name but I read about the ordeal in his book Stranger at the Gate[I]). Also, the universalist unitarians 9especially in the North East tend to have explicit statements about acceptance of varying sexual orientations if not gender transgressions.

Chlirissa

Posted by: Carsonspire Feb 1 2008, 12:02 PM
I'd second the comment about the Unitarian Universalists. They seem to be a very welcoming group. Last time I checked, they were working on awareness campaigns regarding LGBT issues and I think boa from AVEN was working with them on a pamphlet about asexuality.

Posted by: yogachick Mar 9 2008, 03:40 AM
Yes, the UU (Universal Unitarian) church is gay friendly and oftentimes are activists within the community. They're a very tolerant community I highly recommend. I used to go to one about 9 or 10 years ago.

Posted by: Carsonspire Mar 18 2008, 06:07 AM
The Quakers tend to be LGBT-friendly. Though they are not an exclusively Christian group, they do have their roots in Christianity. For those interested in activism, you might also want to check out the http://www.afsc.org, a Quaker-based social justice organization.

Posted by: yogachick May 18 2008, 10:08 PM
Oh yea! The Quakers (often referred to as "Friends") are a tolerant group as well! When I felt I needed to belong to a religious group (in younger days), I actually considered joining them. But somewhere along the way, I decided that I really didn't fit into any organized religion. My path is my own unique blend of beliefs I've found along my journey. If I like an idea, I embrace it and welcome it into my life. Those that don't resonate, I gentley discard. It works for me.

Personally the lack of acceptance of certain religions towards gay people bugs me immensely and it doesn’t make me feel any better knowing I’m asexual. Very often I hear Bishops talk about ‘tolerance’ but it just doesn’t sit right with me and I’ll never feel truly comfortable about religion until they succeed in replacing the word ‘tolerance’ with the word ‘acceptance’.

It does make me feel more optimistic knowing that there are voices within faiths such as Christianity and Islam who do try to make room for true acceptance of lesbian and gay people. I always feel so uplifted when I see groups such as LGCM and Imaan turning out at Pride parades. I am actually going to a talk in just over a week which is being given by a woman called Rev Sharon Ferguson who is herself a lesbian and was recently made the new chair of the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement (LGCM) in the UK. I’m not really religious and may not have chosen to go to this had it not been for the fact that it is being organised by a local gay organisation and they asked me to promote it for them among the lesbian groups I mix with. However, I am looking forward to hearing what Sharon Ferguson has to say about acceptance of lesbian and gay people.

Well,I'm religious,I'm catholic,but I don't see that my religion and my sexual orientation are in disagree because I'm asexual,so,I don't practise sex,and for the catholic church,sex is a sin,if you are married sex isn't a sin,but any type of sex (hetero,homo,bi) out of marriage is a mortal sin,for me no problem,because I don't pretend to have sex with anybody,I mean,genital sex,which is exactly the type of sex which is forbidden in my religion.

Well, I'm an eclectic Dianic Pagan or Witch. The Pagan community is pretty much accepted towards gays. However, I'm not so sure about asexuality. Certain Wiccan traditions such as Dianic Wicca is big on female sexuality and fertility. I'm not a Wiccan, so I do not follow the tradition (which is why I'm a Witch). My patroness is Artemis, so there's really no problem at all lol. She was after all depicted as the virgin huntress in Greek mythology ^^

I had a Christian try to tell me asexuality was a sin. So I asked him what was the greater sin, adultery or being asexual? What a tool :lol:

Oddly, the Satanic Bible mentions asexuality and openly allows it :boogie:

Even more oddly, the New Testament does too. And...best of all, even if St. Paul DIDN'T support it, there is nowhere in the Bible that condemns it.

Next time, tell your friend to show you in his book where it's condemned. Basically say "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" LOL

But seriously, I don't care what book it's in, I won't support the 'if you're not wasting your time with sexual thoughts you can concentrate on others' theory. There are many brilliant sexual people and the fact that they have healthy sex lives don't appear to hinder their brilliance. I don't have sexual thoughts but my guess is that you can have one AND the other...perhaps at the same time.

I usually refer to myself as a spiritual/gnostic Christian. My beliefs are highly unconventional though and I'm not affiliated with any church. There is a big overlap in my thinking with Buddhism and Hinduism and mysticisms. I started having mystical experiences at 15 soon after I started reading the New Testament - both to try to get strength to cope with the abuse in my household, and to align with the opposite of the evil I saw in my father. They continue to this day. So very early on, I came to accept reincarnation and life in other dimensions as fact - also an intelligent consciousness organising the processes of the Universe, and spirit friends and that power helping me.
I have to believe that everything is pre-known, as I've had so many experiences of foreseeing events before they happened. And I've had spirit contact of all kinds (seeing, hearing, feeling) - including remembering being in spirit myself - so I have no doubts about the continuance of existence.
I don't take the whole Bible literally, because I've researched how it was created, by whom, and in what interests. I give little attention to the Old Testament full stop.
I acknowledge certain insights in the Bible however. I tend to believe that 'Jesus' (Yeshua ben Yoseph) went to Nepal to study Buddhism in his lost years, and then went and lived in Kashmir after surviving the cross - and died there.
I see him as a role model (like his mother), of what to aim for.
When atheists argue against 'God', they are always arguing against a concept I don't even adhere to - a simplistic 'man in the sky' version. They argue against concepts they themselves have invented because they can't imagine beyond that. In actual fact, our brains aren't even developed enough to conceive of everthing that exists. We can't even perceive all the noises dogs can, or when there's going to be a twister like other animals. We can't perceive electromagnetic forces like sharks, or sonar like dolphins, whales and bats.
Quantum physicists have now proven the existence of an 11th dimension that is what was required to explain all paranormal activity. Dimensions overlap, held separate by differing vibrational frequencies. Just sometimes, conditions or idiosyncratic states allow for a 'breaking through' from one dimension to another.
To me, anything that brings one closer to 'God' is good. 'Jesus' said that one can't be both of/for this world and of/for God. Sexual desire brings thoughts (and often behaviours) that are not entirely spiritual (spirituality being something that effects us all, as opposed to human, usually man-made religious constructions developed in certain interests - even in Buddhism, it's only men who can be leader, and nuns do the domestic service for monks!). When I was sexual, I was aware that it was something that hindered reaching my spiritual potential in this lifetime. So when I had to come to terms with the change, I tried to focus on acceptance and this positive.
You can be a good person and do great stuff when sexual, but being asexual is another level again I think. (But development happens on multiple levels often at different times.) Christian is a term often used in a general way, but in fact, many people of varying levels of spiritual development and vastly differing belief, call themselves Christian and I am as different from many so-called Christians as I am atheists. I think morality isn't bound up with being hetero or homo/bi, but in motives, thoughts and actions. Do they come from love, or deviant thrill and making sex dirty ... I also think tolerance is different to acceptance of same-sex r/ships. And the church I would be most likely to attend would be Unitarian (but they are few and far between in Oz). In the past I've looked into the Salvation Army, Quakers, and Spiritualist Church - but all were not quite right for me. One of my biggest problems with established churches, apart from beliefs/dictates (don't start me on the Catholic Church!), is the gender-exclusive language. I have no tolerance for *that* - nor the idea that you have to go through someone else to reach 'God'. These are my thoughts.

Goanna, I have basically very similar perspectives/experiences as you do related to spirituality and mysticism (as you explained in the first paragraph in particular). For me, my asexual seems to help me reduce some of the "clutter" that distracts me in my spiritual journey. I am curious how the two aspects affect each other (asexuality and spirituality). Regarding an earlier post, I am wondering why asexuality is considered a sin? Lack of procreation?

I'm Agnostic. Atheist, almost, except I believe in ghosts and an afterlife. For me, the existence of life itself is god, or whatever causes us and everything else to exist is either made from god, or is god.