Storm Troopers Or Allied Scouts?

[Lance Major]

Hi everyone,

I'm a long time guard player and casual reader of the site, but this is my first post. I really cannot make up my mind on this one so i thought i'd ask for advice.

Not sure if this should be in Tactics or Army lists instead; moderators please move it as you see fit.

I'm looking to add a unit to my army; the kind of unit that can go into the oposite deplyment zone and fight an enemy unit off an objective. Maybe i should be using space marines for this style of play, but everyone uses them and guard are much cooler!

I was looking at converting a 10 man stormtrooper squad out of space marine scout sniper bodies and rifles with cadian legs and heads, but I tried a game with proxies and dispite the hotshot lasguns extra CCWs they still struggled to do much damage with str3 shooting/close combat, and were still very fragile with t3.

With the new allies rules i could do the same conversion but with a mix of shotguns and polt pistol/ccw counting as an elite IG regiment and get;

-s4 for shooting and assault
-t4 for increased survivability
-combat tactics and 'and they shall know no fear'
-a s8 power fist and/or combi weapon if i want one
-a scoring unit
-lower points cost per model
-scout bikers as an option for future conversions

I'd need an HQ; a combat monster like a captain or chaplain wouldn't fit, but maybe a master of the forge counting as something more imperial guard.

My other thought is to maybe add some more kick to the stormtroopers in the form of a primaris psyker with biomancy. Has anyone tried this? Enfeeble and endurance would be awsome, iron arm and warpspeed would be fine i guess, but i'm not really sold on the rest of the powers...

All advice/opinion is welcome!

[Lt. Yorke]

What special weapons did you Storm Troopers have?

Deep Striking Storm Troopers with flamers can decimate a squad in one turn of shooting because you can land them right on top of the squad and those templates generate a lot of hits.

Meltas will let you pop a tank, plasma will let you pop TEQ etc.

Charging with them is not the best idea though. Even with more attacks their power is in the shooting phase and they will often lose any combat they engage in because their weapons are rapid fire and they can't soften a target before the charge (and can't deep strike then assault in the same turn).

Wounding on 5's and then denying a marine their 3+ save is better than wounding on a 4 and letting the marine get their save.

EDIT: Oh and Scouts have BS 3 not 4 so the difference in shooting comes down purely to the armor penetration (5 Scouts with shotguns ~= 1 wound on MEQ, 5 ST with Hotshot lasguns ~= 2 wounds)

For me it's Storm troopers every time over allied Scouts.

That's not to say allied scouts aren't good (they are) but I would take them only as my required troops choice so I can get a SM HQ and an assault squad. The Scouts wouldn't be my reason to take allies.

This post has been edited by Lt. Yorke on Aug 20 2012, 06:43 PM

[Lance Major]

If you're only using scouts to unlock assault marines why not use codex: blood angels and get them as scoring troops? I don't want to take something super killy though, I'm looking for something that could still be a guardsman, just an elite one.

I was using 10 stormtroopers with 2 plasma guns, a plasma pistol and a power sword. I was trying to take an objective from a tactical squad in a ruin. I caused a few casualties but they passed their moral check and held their ground.

To take an objective I think it really needs an assault, not many armies fail unmodified moral checks from shooting and it is very hard to wipe out a squad in cover.

Now that i think about it the increase in strength is useful against all opponents, rather than just MEQ armies, would you still take stormtroopers against orks?

[hammerbolt]

Why Stormtroopers anyway? Did you want to Deep Strike them? That would leave a single squad isolated in enemy ground...

I use Veterans to assault objectives. Your squad costs 215 points. For 130 points, you can put 2 Meltaguns, 1 plasmagun, 1 plasma pistol and a powerfist. If you want save +4, that's an extra 30. Still profits. Or you can trade a plasma/melta for a heavy flamer. This will give you a better armed unit, with the same Ld, for a lot less points. Or you can pimp it even more, and give them cloaks for +1save.

Or even, for those 215, you can rig a squad with 2 meltas, the heavy flamer, power fist on the sergeant, and add a Priest with an eviscerator. Gives you a reroll on the assault

[Lt. Yorke]

The value in Storm Troopers is really in their Deep Strike. You can place them wherever you need them to be (which doesn't always have to be on their own in your opponents backfield) this means you can put them on the side of a unit that has a special or heavy weapon so using nearest first wound allocation you can "snipe" it and negate the meatshield your opponent bought for it. You can drop them in to attack the rear armor of a Landraider or use them to support some troops in taking an objective.

How I would use them against Orks is to deepstrike in a pair of Flamers on a mob of Lootas using the flamers to turn the Orks numbers advantage against them - Deep strike as close as you can and those two templates should be able to cover 8 or more Orks each making them highly effective and negating any cover save they might get.

For assaulting an objective (as in actual assault not just shooting somebody off it) then you want Flamer/Shotgun vets in a Chimera with Heavy Flamer with a Sarge with Power weapon (I don't like fists because lots of people still have Sarges with fists and in a challenge I want to go first vs those guys).

Chimera rocks up to the objective and torches the objective. Then you can either fire your flamers from the top hatch or disembark and bring some shotguns to bear as well letting you assault next turn. If your vets have forward observers then they'll get a cover save against shooting this close thanks to defensive grenades which gets better thanks to camo cloaks. If they get charged then they get to overwatch with 3 flamers and a bunch of shotguns and the defensive grenades strip the charging unit of their extra attacks.

If the vets didn't get charged and survived the shooting you should be in a position of having another round of Flame based fun from the Chimera (The Chimera is as much a distraction as anything else, if they shoot that instead of your vets then great) and this turn you get your vets in really close (1 inch close) torch and shotgun the unit on the objective and then assault them. You should win because of how much the shooting has softened up the unit and you then hunker down in cover with your camo cloaks, defensive grenades and flamers daring the enemy to try and assault you.

Now if you don't think you can pull off that move with just the vets in a chimera you deep strike in the storm troopers to help soften it up. Unless it's a kill points game losing the Storm Troopers isn't a problem so long as it lets you take and hold the objective.

EDIT: Deep striking Storm Troopers also serve as an excellent distraction that can give your troops a turn free of being shot up in which they can close the gap while your opponent deals with the Storm Troopers. If they ignore them and continue to fire on your Troops then your ST can get dug into cover and be a thorn in their side all game which if left alone can earn you a VP from Linebreaker or maybe even deny them an objective even if they can't take it. If the Storm Troopers get shot at then that's pulling firepower off your much more fragile (and scoring) troops and you are forcing your opponent into reacting to your strategy which can let you take control of the entire game.

Other uses for Storm Troopers: Taking out a Skyfire platform on an Aegis Defence line - Deep Strike in as close to the gun as you can get and shoot off the models manning it or shoot the gun. If you have any Flyers in your list then this can be a good way to get air superiority early on.

This post has been edited by Lt. Yorke on Aug 21 2012, 03:53 PM

[Lance Major]

I like the double doctrine shotgun/flamer veterans idea! my maths is pretty basic for this and i'm not factoring in possible casualties; appologies.

145pts with grenadiers, forward sentries and 3 flamers + cost of transport

-valkyrie/chimera to get close
-shoot with 9.3 s3 ap- hits and 3 s4 ap5 templates
-survive return fire with t3/4+ save and stealth based cover save
-overwatch with 3d3 s4 flamer hits + 2.3 s3 ap- hits
-survive being assaulted with with t3/4+ save and defensive grenades
-shoot again and charge if neccessary
-maybe add a power fist to kill things in close combat
-scoring

vs 175 for storm troopers with 2 flamers

-deep strike with a reroll/infiltrate/outflank to get close
-shoot with 10.6 s3 ap3 hits and 2 s4 ap5 templates
-survive return fire with with t3/4+ save
-overwatch with 2d3 s4 flamer hits + 2.6 s3 ap3 hits
-survive being assaulted with with t3/4+ save
-shoot again or charge
-maybe add power axe to kill things in close combat

vs Space Marine Scouts

On reflection i think i can take the scouts out of the equasion simply because i dont want to pay 100+ points for a space marine character that will not fit in with my army

The key decisions i need to make for vets vs stormies are

ap3 bulk shooting
vs
an extra flamer

the ability to deep strike anywhere on the table
vs
having more survivability when i arrive

no need to pay for a transport
vs
not being scoring

defensive grenades: -1 attack for them if they charge
vs
extra CCW: +1 attack for me at all times

Shotgun barrage before charging
vs
Hotshot laspistol barrage before charging

Dispite my initial enthusiasm for Double D Veterans <TM> when i started writing this, I think i'm now leaning towards taking some Glory Boys...

This post has been edited by Lance Major on Aug 22 2012, 03:50 PM

[Bluephoenix54]

I've been using 2 stormtrooper squads (full strength) in my lists for quite a while, and they have very rarely failed to deliver.

the most powerful of the 3 SO options they have is actually the recon one. move through cover is meh, but scouts grants them outflank, which allows you pretty much a guarantee of being able to get behind or surprise enemy units from the side table edges, without a chance of losing them to DS mishaps.

with the new 6E rules on overwatch and the random charge distance it makes charging them an even more painful proposition than it was in 5E, and AP3 will usually cause 2-3 unsavable wounds on MEQ.

if you're using them for MEQ removal duties give them 2 PGs, the extra punch allows them to face down even harder things and destroy light vehicles.

[Lt. Yorke]

I always forget the Stormies have HShot Laspistols which actually makes them a bit better on the turn they charge than I previously thought.

It's not a huge amount better since it's only one shot each but with AP3 on those shots it's not as huge a swing for the Shotgun/Flamer vets as I originally thought.

I just did the math on Shotguns vs Hotshot LasP and 10 Hotshot LasP firing at MEQ in 5+ cover is the same effect as 20 Shotgun shots (1.5 wounds) so the real difference would be in the extra flamer on vets vs the extra attacks on Stormies.

I recommend this for figuring out the statistical result http://anydice.com/program/15e5 (Where H is the To Hit, W is To Wound and S is to Save) of any shooting if you aren't very good at doing it in your head.

I think the reason you had trouble with your Storms before was taking Plasma.

A Plasma Stormie Rapid Firing at MEQ in Area terrain has a 75% chance to score one wound. To match those odds a Flamer has to hit 5 marines which should be easy with Stormies and if it's a full Tac squad you should be able to get 7 or 8. If the MEQ are in anything better than 5+ cover then the Plasma just gets worse while the Flamer doesn't care.

The flamer scales up better vs Hordes with low saves than the Plasma gun and is cheaper. I wouldn't give Plasma to a unit I was going to use to flush an objective because their role is to get in close, negate cover saves and both assault and deter being assaulted.

Plasma is more useful for hurting multi-wound, high save, high toughness infantry or MC and hunting light vehicles. Stormies can do that job too but that's not what this thread is about.

EDIT: I just ran a scenario of a full squad of 10 tac marines vs a full squad of 10 ST assuming the marines were in 5+ cover and the ST had arrived via Deep Strike. Neither side had any upgrades and instead of dice I just calculated the odds at each step.

The result was pretty much a coin toss. Turn of arrival the ST kill 3 marines but the next turn the marines kill 3 of them. Turn 2 the ST kill 1 marine from shooting, assault and take 1 would from overwatch. The Marines go first in the assault and cause 1 wound. The ST then cause 1 wound back for a draw and both sides are stuck in combat with 5 on each side and neither having a strong statistical advantage in the next round.

So in summary: It all depends on your upgrades. In the above scenario replacing 2 Hotshot lasguns with Plasma will translate to 4 wounds on the turn you arrive rather than 3 but so will taking 2 flamers and hitting 5 marines each with them. The flamers would win because they are assault so the next turn you get to fire them again while the Plasma won't fire again probably for the whole game.

This post has been edited by Lt. Yorke on Aug 22 2012, 05:35 PM

[Lance Major]

10 stormtroopers with two flamers and a power axe it is then!

flamers should keep the cost down and allow the unit to retain some utility if i come up against a horde rather than an elite army.

off to town to buy a box of scouts with sniper rifles for the conversion this afternoon. I'll post some pics in the hobby section as i go along!

[D503]

If you are going to use allied marines you have to make the squad match the character.

I have used a blood angels jump pack chaplain with inferno pistol and a squad of assault marines as an ally once and it worked well... But it's 400 points.

An unupgraded librarian with a tactical squad is also a good choice - they hold objectives well, and the psychic defence and offence added to your army is worth it.

Getting to the point, there are no Marine characters that interact well with scouts - meaning you'd be stuck with an extremely expensive character who is of no real use.

I think the squad of stormtroopers with 2 flamers outflanking would work much better than scouts. Nice to keep it cheaper than if you took fancy weapons.

[librisrouge]

This thread and other battle reports have made me seriously consider 30 stormtroopers in my infantry guard army. I even posted it here for comment.

[lomaxxdurang]

Have you considered running a 5 man pcs with 4 flamers and a pf? I stick them in a Valkyrie or Vendetta and have no issues taking an objective away from my opponent.