this might seem like a stupid question but...

people do realize that dealings with dragons in magick is one of the most dangerous things you can do?

EDIT: I only say this because dragons are some of the most intelligent and powerful entities in the known multiverse, and usually require some sort of payment for any services rendered and if you are lucky will only ask for knowledge in return.

There's plenty of more dangerous things, but yeah it's not the safest either. Thankfully the only real magicians here have no particular interest in dragons.

Compared to us it may seem that way but there's a whole lot scarier things out there.

Then you're doing it wrong. You don't bargain with something like that, you bind it into servitude or command it with a name of power, it's true name, or something of the like.

I know that there are more dangerous things out there but I didn't see any articles on calling forth the rulers of the planes of the underworld so I figured I would mention the ones I did see that should have contained at least a caution.

your right I'm not going to argue on that.

The typical form of summoning of more powerful entities done where a form of something capable of being detected by the senses is created, is done by a pact to the best of my knowledge but it has been several life times since I last did any.

how, may i ask, DOES one summon other beings?

Your understanding of magick is flawed and dangerous to the extreme.

No. By doing a pact with a being you bind yourself to it for millenia in many cases. It is so that we have the authority to work magick because of the four-elements in our soul.
After you die(and you have a pact in place) then you will still work for this entity. It can be so that you spend so long in their sphere that you lose your four-element nature and spend another few millenia crawling back to your once elevated status as a Man.

I see articles, books and threads on said all the time. Dragons are useless and literally nothing compared to elemental kings or Arch forces.

This is almost entirely wrong. First of all Dragons are only slightly elevated in the elemental hierarchy. Under even elemental angels and kings!
Multiverse is a term from movies.
No spirit can demand payment for a man who is summoning them when properly strong enough. This generally takes about 2-3 years of 1-2 hours of dedicated and logical study a day.

I don't know what fantasy you've been reading but I like the sound of it.

How is my understanding flawed most beings that can be summoned are going to do something for free; it's just a mater of when they ask for the return favor.

Only if the terms for the pact are not clearly defined, will it last for longer than the caster intended. As a pact is an agreement for exchange of services; ie you come and do this for me for a time and I'll do something for you. If you are stupid enough to summon a being through a pack and not spell out the terms of the service then you deserve what you get.

I was referring to on this forum, I browsed through the threads and articles and didn't see anything on it. Most of the Dragons I have interacted with are elemental kings and a few have reached the age to where they are considered arch forces.

I know of several dragons that would gladly kill you for insulting them as the are more intelligent than you seem to be giving them credit for. I used a movie term because it fits each plane of existence that you visit is in effect a separate universe and multi verse is the best term I've heard to describe it. As for saying that no spirit may demand payment from a person who is summoning them if the caster is strong enough is bull as no mater how strong you are if you summon a master of a particular plane such as the elemental plain of water the being is going to ask for some form of payment or you will be destroyed. I've seen it happen to one who had mastered the element and had gained the necessary strength to do so with out a problem and they wound up dead because they didn't listen to the being. You are making it sound like the other beings are but servants to your will and have no free will of their own. All beings that are sentient have free will and no mater how much you want you will never fully control them. And just because you can safely summon them once doesn't mean that you will be able to do so again.

Really? Fascinating because I simply made up the term "arch forces". There are only 4 elemental kings. Djinn, Nischa, Paralda and Ghob of Fire, Water, Air and Earth respectively. Most dragons are inherently of the sphere of fire and admitedly you must be careful when summoning them as unlike other elementals they are sentinent (contrary to intelligent). They've lived for millenia and have learned. Such experience is formidable indeed.

Your view on summoning is wrong. Read the Leser Key Of Solomon and other such classic grimoires. Pacts are not reccomended by any credible author. You see we have the authority to command such creatures. We need not ask them to do anything. To evoke one must ensure that the Divine Spark of God that lies in his soul ignites him, bathing the entity that is being evoke in the light of God. Nothing then will refuse to do your will.

Furthermore, you should never summon a creature you cannot command. If a creature threatens to destroy you then be damned sure that you must return the thread. A devil, for example, must be treated with complete contempt. It must be peppered with threats and motivated through use of the ritual blade to do your will.

One should not master one element. What makes one a master is studying them all and making them equal in your soul, raising you to the divine.


It is my belief, and the belief of great adepts such as Crowley, Eliphas Levi and so on, that Man is the only species that has true will. Man is the race that has the oppurtunity that Angels used to have. Next it will be something else. One day all will be brought up in the Hand of the Tetragrammaton.



Edit: No mere dragon would be able to kill someone currently at my level. And I'm sure Thrashercub will back up all the points I have made.

An arch force is one that has the ability to dominate all elements and or forces arrayed against them.

I'm sure if you were to ask Djinn, Nischa, Paralda, or Ghob they would tell you that they are no kings of the elements; I say this as I knew them in my first life.

You are correct most that people interact with are fire dragons, there are also those that are born and live in water and breathe water jets as opposed to jets of flame. As to them being sentient I'm not going to argue that but it is also possible to have an intelligent conversation with one as they are capable of projecting their thoughts and cause them to touch the speech center of our brain so we are able to understand them.

there are entities out there that could give two shits about the light of God, there are more powerful entities than him/her (depending on your personal beliefs as to the gender representation of god). You might want to tell Rasputin that nothing will refuse to do your will. He was one of the most powerful Russian casters and was on par with Crowley he just went mad with power; and as the Russian revolution happened around the time he lived and died a lot of his texts were destroyed.

He had attained complete mastery over one, I never said that he wasn't studying or had not attained a level of mastery over the others just that he had completely mastered one.

Then you say Elves, Goblins, Dwarfs, Orks, and the literaly thousands of other magical creatures including theranthropes (I apologize if I've misspelled it) are not capable of free will or true will for that matter.

were I speaking of mere dragons I wouldn't argue but I'm not talking about anything under 10,000,000,000 years old.

Far be it from me to question your knowledge of your past lives. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on the subject of elemental kings as it is one of the basis of my sciences that I have proven beyond reasonable doubt time and time again.

I see you believe that Rasputin was a magician. This is something that has always fascinated me. I personally believe it based on my own ability to gather information however if you have any evidence or reputable sources I can view that would be excellent.

Perhaps you misunderstood sentience. It is because the dragon are sentient that people can commune with dragons to an extent. However....they are not free to reject or embrace God. They do their duty under god and have very little choice over their own life.


Pertaining to free will very few people utilize their free will, living instead by the vices they have accumulated in past lives and never truly pursuing their goal.

I stand by what I said. I challenge anyone to find a mere dragon they believe could kill me.

I agree to disagree on that though I'm not disagreeing that elemental kings exist just who they currently are.

I wish I had sources to give as this is a theory that has been floating around, all I have to go off of is interactions with him in a past life. I have had many past lives just in case you were wondering.

I may have misunderstood what you meant, the way it sounded when I read it is that no other creatures besides man have free will which is why I started listing Elves, Dwarfs, Gnomes, and such, because they are technically not human. I got a little angry about that and I apologize.

could you explain that better as all sentient beings are capable of making that choice to my understanding; take angles for example they have a choice, however, when they reject God they are cast from the presence and cease being angles, they may not become demons but they are no longer angles. And it is possible that God didn't create dragons.

I'm going to leave the last statement alone as I don't want to owe that big of a debt.

I mentioned pacts because all summoning has a cost. weather or not we pay it now or later is the difference; ergo the more powerful the entity you summon the bigger the debt and the opposite is true as well the weaker the creature the smaller the debt. Even God does not grant favors for nothing fortunately all he asks in return is undivided devotion and worship oh and should it become necessary to die for him. There is a Buddhist saying that goes something close to "if you meet the Buddha kill the Buddha" this is not the complete quote nor do I claim it to be completely correctly worded but it is meant to cause one to question every thing one finds, that all is not brought about by divine will and that the divine does not control everything or every creature.

EDIT: a good example of cost is the creation of fire there must be fuel to burn, heat and oxygen to allow the flame to continue to consume the fuel the cost of creating the flame is the fuel source and the energy necessary to ignite it plus the gases necessary to keep it from going out.

FYI: you're not going to win a magickal debate against Raitaro. He's right.

Sure. You can make the choice. But...how can you truly expect a being to make a choice when one option leads to ultimate pain and relative suffering?

It could be incredibly indoctrinated (read: brainwashed, usually socially or religiously) and therefore refuse to acknowledge that it's walking face first into misery.

That's how you can expect a being to do that - you just have to find a being that can't think properly.

well, i understand that smarter people are easily brainwashed.

my way of doing it was that if the person is overly logical, i use logic (slightly twisted, just enough to get the point across), if the person is not smart at all, i simply make the idea sound good,that kind of thing, basicly, play on their mental weakness.

Why do we deal with dragons you ask? Because of the very reason that you stated, they are the most intelligent, most powerful, and most feared spirits that roam the planes and modern world. To harness such a power would make you more than man on the planes, it would give you closeness to the gods. Few of us in the brotherhood actually harness the power of the dragons to their fullest extent, us their knowledge, their power, and their advice. Why would some not want to harness one of the most powerful beings on all the planes other than the gods themselves, but even they aren't as mighty as most of the draconic's put together.

And we harness this power by using the draconic ritual of summoning the spirits themselves to the physical planes for a temporary time until the host that the spirit will inhabit and empower that host. Only person I know for sure can achieve this ritual, but it can be done personally but that is very hard.

A slight exageration. The Dragons are indeed a powerful race worthy of our respect and admiration. Magestic beings who can indeed lead us to be a King amo9ng Men. However, they are not, nor shall they ever be, the most powerful race in the planes.
The things that wander the planes are far beyond our ability to imagine or even comprehend until we see them. A mere dragon is nought but a firefly infront of an Avatar of the Abyss. Hulking dieties of chaotic energy that screams "I Am I" with every breath yet will never achieve the spark it needs for true power. Too unstable to last long the energy eventually is ripped apart often creating strange physical phenomena should they physically manifest (in a round-a-bout way) or effect a person astrally.
Never make absolute claims Mejita. Smarter men than you or I have been driven mad when trying to understand the finer worlds.

yes but it is never safe to deal with an avatar of the abyss or the constructs of the elemental chaos; there are ways to ensure surviving the encounter but not guaranty complete safety. I never intended to claim that dragons were the most powerful creatures in all the plains; tho I realize that it may sound like I claimed that. I merely meant to point out that even though there are several articles dealing with dragons none at the start caution the reader that if one is not careful they could wind up at a minimum loosing their life.
And Please keep in mind that I use conditionals, they are there because I am not perfect in my recollection of past lives; and a lot of what I have written is based on past experiences my soul has had.

I admire your concern for the safety of the practioners here however unless you already know how dangerous summoning is the you shouldn't be performing it from articles on the internet and, quite frankly, those who do deserve what's coming to them.

Well the articles or post that we made on here that were based on summoning were made from none other than our own practiced ki practioners and summoner of our guild, Vincent, or fury_warhammer. Those instructions on summoning we pretty clear, with a warning and everything. If someone were not careful then, yes they could get themselves into some spiritual help.

Yes, dragons are not the most powerful beings, but they are the best choice for controlling. We prefer the dragons over other beings because we can attain a more diverse and ancient knowledge from them rather than from most otherkin or planar beings.

Draconics has been around for a very long time, thousands of years, back when the pagans and druids where around, long before stonehenge. The beliefs in dragons have been around for longer, but we have very little resources to research this ancient art.

My suggestion is, you haven't trained enough and you don't feel confident, don't try our techniques. Most of us have been practicing this stuff for damn near 7-6 years, me 5 years coming up next month. So what I think is, the weak should not summon the strong. Those of us who have been through this ritual, we were all tested and tested each other to see if we could handle such a being.

I would also question the dragons being the best choice for summoning. Much more beneficial would be a goetic demon in order to erase ones vices or a spirit of the Air Kingdom in order to gain esoteric knowledge.