The war

Y'know, it just occured to me that if everyone went to war on defensive terms, then there would be no war. (Noone would ever attack) Why doesnt everyone just completely disarm, then the problem would be solved?



Yeah, i know that would be just about impossible. Just saying.....

Chad, im pretty sure he posed at least a decent threat figuring Old George Bush went to war with him and Clinton wanted to go to war with him.

How do they know for a FACT there were no weapons of mass destruction. Its not like they can check every inch of iraq, underground and above, in the mountains, in the valleys, im POSITIVE they couldnt have searched the ENTIRE country. AND they could have left and covered everything up. There is no way to know for sure.

Bush might not admit his mistake, because to him, its not a mistake, its a victory. Sure with alot of loss of life, but fuck, its the least loss of life in any war ever, so hell, to him, again, its another accomplishment.


"Do you -live- in Iraq? Do you -know- it's fucked up? Did the big bad Americans tell you that it was fucked up there?

"I'm Afraid of Americans" --David Bowie + Trent Reznor from NIN"

Ok... Hows this for a few examples.
Half the population didnt have clean water
Most the cities didnt have plumbing.
Almost no cities of iraq had a police force at all.
They had no unified currency
While saddam was in control there were no theatres, no freedom of religion, hardly any education at all, women werent allowed to do shit.

Just a few examples.

My point was its been what, two, three years now and we havent found anything. Im sure by now, with our army being in control of the country, weve scoured every military installation/ secret hiding spots saddam might've had, even the ones he cordoned off to U.N inspectors. Even if the only weapons were in some super-duper top secret facility under a mountain or in a cave somewhere, the location or record of the place has to appear somewhere. Even if they had taken thier weapons out of the country to avoid detection, where would they take them? Cant keep that shit hidden forever. Besides, all the top military guys and (if i remember correctly) bush himself have come out and said they have found nothing, and that it wasnt at all likely saddam had anything in the first place. Which means the whole justification for the war was Bullshit.

Old George Bush went to war with him because he invaded a country. Clinton wanted to go to war with him because he wasnt listening to the U.N. Sure, he ran his country to shit just because he wanted to hold onto power. But where is new Bush's justification for the war? Hell, as far as running the country to shit goes, i could say the same for Bush. Sure, we deposed an asshole Dictator, brought democracy to an oppressed people, and its a victory, and thats all well and good. But its a victory in a war that should never have happened in the first place.

And if youre going to quote alisa's views on me, ill throw a few back at you.

"And I don't think it's cool to just walk in to a country who's had a completely different history than ours, and try to plant our government values on them.
Sure, democracy works for us, and we wonder why it wouldn't work just as great for others.
But they have their own roots, and we have ours.
I know our intentions are good, but its not right, or fair"

Agreed, taking over and molding a country to our own image just flat out isnt cool, and it doesnt exactly improve our standing with the countries that already hate us.

And im pretty sure they at least had a unified currency, but that other stuff is probably true.

There was no unified currency.

Nuclear weapons are a HUGE thing, he may purposely kept it hidden and told only his MOST trusted friends, and not recorded it anywhere (or took all the records with him and either burned em or is still in hiding.)

Sure, its hard to keep nuclear weapons secret, but fuck, its totally possible. You'd be surprised how sneaky those motherfuckers can be. Remember osama? He's left us a wide open trail for 2 years and we still can't catch him.


I dont support the way he went to war without intelligence first. He should have had SOME kind of evidence or proof that there actually were WMD.

Im pretty sure there was.... because i remember seeing a news report of all the soldiers keeping dollar bills with saddam's ugly face on them as souvenirs after we took bagdad... but oh well, i could be wrong.

Unless Saddam was running his own WMD programs entirely by himself, thatd be a pretty damn hard thing to cover up. Youve got to think about all the scientists, the people running hte factories where they could've been making nerve gasses, the people in the facilities where they could've been housing nukes... not to mention all the military people running the whole thing. Those are a lot of loose ends to deal with. Even if they had managed to take care of all that, where is the actual, hard evidence? Where are the actual WMDs?

And thats another thing that pisses me off.... why the hell did we star ANOTHER war when we havent even CAUGHT OSAMA YET.

Also, we went into iraq on a "strong suspicion" that saddam had nukes, when over in North Korea, Kim Jong Il, (sp?) a dictator just as ruthless as saddam is, in a country just as repressed as iraq, is saying "Hey look, weve got nukes!!! Were testing them over in the desert right now, wanna come watch??" And now Bush is saying were not going to war with N.Korea. Wtf? Hypocrite piece of shit. You know why were not? Korea has no oil. Plain and simple.

rawr

rawr

I'm in italics. Mark is in bold.

[QUOTE]Also, we went into iraq on a "strong suspicion" that saddam had nukes, when over in North Korea, Kim Jong Il, (sp?) a dictator just as ruthless as saddam is, in a country just as repressed as iraq, is saying "Hey look, weve got nukes!!! Were testing them over in the desert right now, wanna come watch??" And now Bush is saying were not going to war with N.Korea. Wtf? Hypocrite piece of shit. You know why were not? Korea has no oil. Plain and simple.

Dont know what to tell you, he's got his reasons, maybe he just can't say them yet for whatever confidential reasons. Or maybe he just wants a backup supply of oil so that the US doesnt run out anytime soon.
That was one of the worst reasons yet (at least, the part about building up a backup supply of oil). He still may have some 'reasons,' but they are going to have to be some DAMN GOOD reasons to do something like that. [/QUOTE]
so basically, youre saying, we went to war in iraq, got 1500 soldiers plus all the coalition forces/civilians killed, for no reason other than OIL, and meanwhile somewhere else there was a country with a real reason to go to war over? [/QUOTE]


this is probably gonna get way to confusing, but whatever, im in underlined text.
Edit: Okay, i completely screwed up the quoting thing in this, but whatever, you get my point.

There was no unifed currency, there were currencies they tried to use, but it didnt work for the entire country, now there is a countrywide unified currency.

I didn't say it was the actual reason, or a good reason for that matter. None of us know the real reason behind it, except a bad decision. He might have honestly have gone in to find WMD because he firmly believed there were some, and if there were and we didn't, millions to billions of people would have died because of it.

A probable reason Bush isn't going to attack N. Korea is because they would have absolutely no problem launching a nuke at us or any of our allies. They have the capability and they are more than willing to launch one. See, if we invaded N. Korea (Hell, I sure hope we don't, or we're all screwed, meaning the world) there would be another huge war, most likely World War III. This war would kill millions and millions (reason: Nuclear War, improved technology). If we invaded North Korea, they'd launch a nuke at us, or an ally of ours. China would back up N. Korea and help them attack us, Cuba would also probably do anything it could to disrupt our economy (ie: terrorist bombings in the U.S.), Russia would then be thrown into it because of their alliance with us, and with the Chinese joining the N. Koreans. With this, the Middle East would be thrown into yet another war, which would ultimately throw the rest of Europe into it.

If you give this thought, you find it to be very probable. Correct me if I'm wrong otherwise though or if you disagree with this. This war would be the worst thing to happen to the human race, it'd be horrific. Also, another reason we're trying to settle things over there in the Pacific is because of another bad situation. I'm talking about Taiwan and China. I don't know if many of you have heard much about the trouble and friction between them, but it's significant. The United States supports Taiwan, but they want to attack China, and China would attack them if that happened, yet again....it'd throw us into WWIII, that's why I'm hoping Bush has enough sense to not screw this up. So yea....I end my rant on this.

Lol, actually conner, China said they would back us up against N.Korea if it came down to that. (Which is very historic, considering theyre a communist country and all.) But if youre going by that theory, couldnt saddam (if he had actually had nukes,) done the same thing to us when we invaded? Bush wasnt at all afraid then, which just sort of leads me to believe WMDs again were not the reason for war in iraq, and bush lied.

If saddam had nuked us, it mightve turned out worse then the WW3 you were thinking of if we had invaded N.Korea. Think about it, Most of the U.N was opposed to us going into iraq in the first place. Do you really think they wouldve wanted to help clean up the mess we wouldve made?

i dont see how it would be historic since the soviet union was part of the allies in ww2....



hmm... maybe we are waiting for the missle system to be perfected just incase there was a nuke launched at us. i dont see a threat over there right now, but when in the middle east alliance are being made, syria and iran have joined together for a common cause, it may be democracy, of course they would fear it so that could be it, its like the US fighting communism, they were in a world when many countries were turning communist, but then they fell, it could be the same, they see democracy rise in their lands and they will watch it fall, syria and iran fear, the media reports that young iranians want more freedoms, but it cannot be trusted at all times, if this is so, they will collapse, it was said that WMD that may have been in Iraq might have been sent to Syria, there for if Iran is devoloping nukes, and there could be an assumption that Syria may have some already, and since they have an alliance its a bigger threat, soon the major countries in asia will have nuclear/atomic, or any sort of mass destruction weapon, like pakistan, india, israel, russia, and north korea and maybe some more but i cannot remember, Iraq is despensible, once it is stable then it will matter, Afghanistan is the king right now, its well established, it has a pretty big military now and will get more, look at afghanistan and you will get your answers... Israel is the pest brother that will be shut down, sending planes to attack nuclear facilities in the making, having its brother the US to protect it, if Israel falls, Iraq Will fall, if iraq falls, if iraq falls afghanistan falls... who is the one who looks after them. the United States of America

I agree mostly with you Chad. Bush definantly didn't invade Iraq for WMD's, although I'm pretty sure Saddam had some biological weapons or chemical weapons. I mean...he did afterall release chemical weapons on his own people, back in the early 90's I believe (right?). But I'm not too sure if he had any more weapons. Plus...Saddam is kind of a pansy. I mean...we found him, hidding in that hole, literally, a hole in the ground. Kim Jong Il on the other hand, he's willing to start a nuclear war, he's just a plain out sadistic sociopath. But yea, this war is way unjustified, especially now. We've already blown craters all over and place (yes, we did rid the country of the horrible dictator and maybe make it a bit better) But's it's almost as though Bush has taken a stick and rattled a hornet's nest (terrorism).

israel is the root of all our problems, they own the world

Israel isn't the cause of all problems. Events that have happened in Israel are the real problems (have you learned nothing in English, Tovar??). Like the fact it's a huge epicenter for religious matters.