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Title: cj3b resto-mod
Description: help for a bronco guy


michaelksmith - May 8, 2012 02:20 AM (GMT)
Hey guys - I am new to the site, and have a few planning questions... I'm just finishing a 74 bronco project, and have a 54 cj3b with no motor/no drivetrain... I'm not so familiar with Jeeps, so have a few questions to try to get a plan together before I get started on this...
mostly drivetrain, and electrical harness, and I've found a ton of information here on the electrical already!

I have a pretty stock chevy sb that I plan on putting in (really just because I have it, and it's pretty easy to deal with) I have a muncie 4 spd, bolted up to an NP205 transfer case, and am hoping that will all work out under the jeep.

Research tells me that I need to update the front and back end a bit, which leads me to the first of my questions...

Without planning on driving the jeep too hard, I planned on getting a dana 30 (or 44 if I find one) for the front end... Will a narrow cj dana 30 fit well without too many modifications? (except maybe to the spring perches) my jeep has the original 25 I believe.

For the back end, I planned on using the dana 44 housing that I've got, but just need to know what axle upgrade might be necessary...

Thanks for any help!
The wealth of knowledge that I've seen from your group is phenomenal!
Michael Smith
user posted image

Moncheche - May 8, 2012 01:43 PM (GMT)
That's a sweet looking 3b on that trailer. Wish I had answers for you.

Take lots of pics! Start a rebuilders thread so I can follow you over there.

I have a thread "home again" over there. I have a chevy power plant, but I'm Willys from the transmission back.

Good luck, and looking forward to seeing your work.

Duffer - May 8, 2012 01:55 PM (GMT)
I am going to assume by sbc you mean a 350? A 283/305/307/ and even a 327 will work with all the stock components if you show a little restraint. You will want to upgrade brakes and I would be putting in a Saginaw box, but otherwise it will work with a T90 if you don't get carried away with big tires.

If the sbc is a 350 or one of the even larger versions, a lot needs to change. The rear D44 will still be fine if you full float it, otherwise you will be shearing the hubs and axles shafts. A front D30 will work if again, you show some restraint and keep the tires around 33's. A front D44 would be the ticket, but you need to either build one or out-board the front springs and use a Waggy axle. There are no narrow versions of the D44 available that will bolt in.

You will not likely be able to fit a 205 between the frame rails and if you actually manage to somehow fit it, it is going to hang very low. Again, assuming you will be using a SM465 or a SM420. Bite the bullet and get the short adapter to the D18. Build the D18 using a late D20 case-I am sure there are some threads on that at ECJ5 or JF. I did it about 15 years back when the Teralow gearset became available. It makes a reasonably strong case, gives you a good driveline angle (at least better than anything else), you get a 2.46 (or 3.15 with tera's) reduction instead of the 1.96 in the 205, and most important, lets you use a Warn/Saturn overdrive.

If the trans is a SM465 (or SM420), you can probably use even 3.73's for diff gears, especially if you go with a Teralow gear set. I use 4.10's and with the OD, it is almost identical to running 3.07's on the highway. Anything bigger than a 307 sbc will have no problems on the road with that.

All that said, your 3B looks WAY too good to be doing that to it------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

oldtime - May 8, 2012 03:19 PM (GMT)
michaelksmith, Welcome to the CJ-3B Bulletin Board !

As you know the "just because I have it" scenario can easily turn bad on you.

Please read: http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/ar/t2591.htm

After model selection the engine choice is paramount to developing a complete synchronous system.
The quantity of mechanical force harnessed by the chosen engine effects all drivetrain and frame components.
It is ideal for one to first determine and then define the expected useage.
Your expected useage is needed to determine realistic build stipulations.

History reveals that the WWII military LRV's all started with the 1940 army build stipulations.
If you are building a complete jeep from various parts you also need to determine your desired stipulations.

Example: under 2500 lbs
must have 10 / 1 torque to weight ratio
for off road use only
25 mpg hiway
etc.

Daryl - May 8, 2012 03:37 PM (GMT)
The 205 is really tough to squeeze into a CJ frame. Nice thing about a sbc is that bellhousings are easily available to fit practically every trans out there. Nice to use a T-18 or a SM420 as they are small trannys that are easily adapted to a 18 or 20 tc. Many have put Buick v6s and 4.3 Chevys into short wheel base Jeeps with much success. Nice thing about a 3b grill is that you can place a big enough (tall) radiator behind it to cool just about anything. Be flexible, search alot, and try to find threads by those who actually have built one instead of just repeating what they read on the magical internet of misinformation. Good luck!

Duffer - May 8, 2012 04:27 PM (GMT)
Here is the rear axle kit you will likely want
http://www.hermtheoverdriveguy.com/id2.htm

The 30 spline kit will allow you a much bigger selection of traction devices. Downside is you have to pull the spindles off to get the shafts out. The older 19 spline kits allow you to pull the shafts without even removing the wheels but no selectable lockers available for them that I know of. One word of caution: Detroit Lockers are a real handful in an 80 wheelbase with a 350. Those un-planned lane changes you read about can be VERY real. I tried them twice and gave up.

A front D30 out of a 70 to 75 CJ should bolt in-I would be looking for the disc brake version.


michaelksmith - May 8, 2012 04:57 PM (GMT)
Thank you guys! Great information! I continue to be impressed with the knowledge and support on this forum...
Daryl - Good to know on the np205, and exactly why I asked... As oldtime said - I just happen to have that stuff, but am not married to using it on the jeep unless it works well... (I had read that modifications page, and found it to be REALLY good!)

duffer - yes - it's a 350 - pretty mild tho... I was thinking 32x11.50's at the most, and not thinking of driving it too hard. Full-Floating the rear 44 is exactly what I guessed, (thanks for the link) and the front 30 from the 70-75 cj is what I hoped would work as well. Agreed on the disc brakes...

Thanks for the help!
MS

HOGHEAD - May 8, 2012 06:37 PM (GMT)
If you want something to run down the road 60 or 70 MPH & run 33s & have a reliable running motor,84 " wheel base..,, Pick up a 74 to 76 running gear,,, 304-360 AMC 3speed & Dana20 transfer Dana 30 & Dana 44,,, The worst youll have to do is move the Motor back 4 inchs make a drive shafts to fit ,,, & then you ll have some place to run your fender headers,,, :unsure: :blink: Just saying if your not restoring it .... :) That way your Distributor is in the right place,,,, :angry: :)

Duffer - May 8, 2012 07:35 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (HOGHEAD @ May 8 2012, 01:37 PM)
If you want something to run down the road 60 or 70 MPH & run 33s & have a reliable running motor,84 " wheel base..,, Pick up a 74 to 76 running gear,,, 304-360 AMC 3speed & Dana20 transfer Dana 30 & Dana 44,,, The worst youll have to do is move the Motor back 4 inchs make a drive shafts to fit ,,, & then you ll have some place to run your fender headers,,, :unsure: :blink: Just saying if your not restoring it .... :) That way your Distributor is in the right place,,,, :angry: :)

Hoghead, I know you are fond of AMC's and that is ok, but I am not. The only place I will use one is in something that already has one-where it has definate economic advantages. From having to tear half the motor apart to replace the front seal, to the lousy mileage, to the the limited and expensive selection of aftermarket parts, they just are no match to either the old school sbc, the newer LS's, or the 90 degree GM V6's.

And a 3B will go down the road just fine at 70 to 80 mph with good brakes and steering AND with an 80" wheelbase. Mine has been doing that since 1973. With the right tires, they can go a good bit faster, but that's another story.

Where I wheel, longer is definately not an asset. If one wants longer, just go buy a JK and be done with it-but not nearly as much fun as a flatty even if they do come with stock lockers on both ends and the applauded 3.6L (which doesn't even come close to the first sbc (327) I installed in my 3B 39 years ago).

Since in this case we already have a very good engine/clutch/transmission combo, getting the D18 adapter makes to most sense here, along with an offset full float rear axle. I will not put anything other than a full float in the rear of my Jeeps if I am doing any conversions. A lot of insurance when in the back country knowing that if you do break an axle, everything will remain in-place and you can just pull the driveshaft and drive flanges and motor home in front wheel drive. You may have to use the winch a few times, but beats the hell out of replacing axle shafts in the mud or trying to find what's left of your brakes in the same.

michaelksmith - May 8, 2012 09:53 PM (GMT)
duffer - does the dana 18 mean offset rear housing though? so I'd then need to get a cut-down offset 44 for the rear?

Daryl - May 8, 2012 11:38 PM (GMT)
I'm with Duffer on the AMC motor. The only place that I will run one is to the Scrapyard as the 10 cents a pound is far more then they are worth as a motor. :D
Any offset 44 axle from a universal will work for a full-float kit. I think there may be thicker tubes from 62 to 70 though- Ken help me out there-.

oldtime - May 9, 2012 12:11 AM (GMT)
I must say your 1954 appears to have potential to be restored back to stock condition.
It may actually be worth more $ if built back to stock standard or as stock optional.
See automotive terms: http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_B...?showtopic=2157

The stock standard 1954 will have a 10 spline D44.
The Hurricane engine with early 8-1/2" clutch cannot break the early 10 spline D44.
A highly modified Hurricane with 9-1/4" clutch cannot break the 19 spline D44.
But a highly modified Hurricane engine with HD 9-1/4" Borg Beck clutch can break the side gears of an open differential.
This directly implies the open carrier (having only 2 side gears) to be the weak link.
If installing larger than an I-4 engine the D44 should be upgraded to 19 spline axle shafts.
If installing more than a V-6 engine the D44 should be upgraded to 30 spline axle shafts .
The axle shaft diameter increases as the spline count goes up.
It will do little or no good to install heavy duty 30 spline axle shafts if the open case is not improved upon.
For that reason you will want to go to a stronger differential case with 4 side gears.
In other words your better off with a 19 spline Powr Lok than an open 30 spline differential unit.

QUOTE
I think there may be thicker tubes from 62 to 70 though- Ken help me out there-.
Jeep did use some HD D44 axle housings prior to the offset flanged D44 (circa 1970 /1971).
They are very few and far between because they were only an option for the CJ.
This rare feature is almost universally overlooked.
Obviously a late 60's CJ with the backhoe option would be a prime suspect.
Very few are in the know concerning the option.
AFAIK You Daryl are the first to bring it up.

HOGHEAD - May 9, 2012 12:15 AM (GMT)
I knew I would be in trouble with that stick & that hornets nest,,, But I dont know any other motor GM or Ford that can be flogged every day for 15 years the way I drive them,,, As far as Milage in the 80s I had a 360 AMC with a speadbore Holley sitting on top of a bunch of other goodys that got 28 MPG ... My 98 Cherokee is a far cry from that ,, It was a manual linkage & Id unhook it when I wasnt racing it ,,,& run on the primaries Jetted just right & it had all the power to power the 78 CJ-5 around town & trail riding,,, Ive had Chevys (327) & I have Fords (302s),, AMCs are easyer for what I do with it ,,, & yes they are a little more Chevy parts in the junk yards to pick over,,, Butt if you know what your looking for you can find AMCs just as cheap.. :)

Duffer - May 9, 2012 12:50 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (oldtime @ May 8 2012, 07:11 PM)
I must say your 1954 appears to have potential to be restored back to stock condition.
But a highly modified Hurricane engine with HD 9-1/4" Borg Beck clutch can break the side gears of an open differential.
This directly implies the open carrier (having only 2 side gears) to be the weak link.
If installing more than a V-6 engine the D44 should be upgraded to 30 spline axle shafts .
The axle shaft diameter increases as the spline count goes up.
In other words your better off with a 19 spline Powr Lok than an open 30 spline differential unit.

QUOTE
I think there may be thicker tubes from 62 to 70 though- Ken help me out there-.
Jeep did use some HD D44 axle housings prior to the offset flanged D44 (circa 1970 /1971).
They are very few and far between because they were only an option for the CJ.
This rare feature is almost universally overlooked.
Obviously a late 60's CJ with the backhoe option would be a prime suspect.
Very few are in the know concerning the option.
AFAIK You Daryl are the first to bring it up.

Ken is right on the money with all this except maybe the 19 spline axles-at least the aftermarket full float versions I have. Those also have been in the 3B since 1975 and behind two different 400+hp engines. No sign of twist and no breakage. I really don't think you actually gain much strength with the 30 spline axles as they neck down to the same size as the 19's at the spindles making the larger size of the rest of little consequence. I agree the side gears and spiders are the weak link in a 44 diff and both are eliminated with a PowrLoc and most other traction devices.

As Daryl notes, any offset 44 can be full floated as well as the centered version. The only thing that changes is the axle lengths.

As for the thick wall tubed 44's- there is one of those under the rear of my 68 CJ5. Thickness difference is more than obvious.

Daryl - May 9, 2012 01:04 AM (GMT)
In all our posts, I don't believe anyone has asked the location of pictured Jeep. I have a couple of 134/t90/18 setups, that I believe would be a really good start to fixing up that B.

oldtime - May 9, 2012 01:07 AM (GMT)
Well they only neck down if they are full float shafts.
The 30 spline flanged D44's have very strong axle shafts.
In fact they are the best that Jeep ever installed. (1970 through 1975)
Full floating shafts are certainly superior concerning vehicle dependability if by chance you happen to break one..

Dana 23-2 rear, Dana 25 front and Dana 27 front all have 10 straight cut spline axle shafts.
They measure 1.12" outside diameter or .005" under 1-1/8".

Dana 30 front has 27 rolled spline axle shafts.
They measure 1.162 outside duiameter.

Pre 1957 Jeep Dana 44 rear axle shafts all have 10 staight cut spline rear shafts.
They measure 1.225" outside diameter.

Post 1956 Jeep Dana 44 rear axle shafts all have 19 involute spline axle shafts.
They measure 1.245" outside diameter or .005" under 1-1/4".

Post 1970 Jeep Dana 44 use 30 count rolled spline axle shafts.
They measure 1.285" outside diameter.

michaelksmith - May 9, 2012 04:12 AM (GMT)
Hey Daryl, my jeep and I are in Portland, or....

RamblinCJ3B - May 9, 2012 04:18 AM (GMT)
I ran my 48 CJ2A with a very hopped up 327,SM420 and Dana 18 with the stock front 25 and rear 44 for years with a Detroit locker and 33s. Went through the Rubicon many times and never broke anything! I did upgrade to 11" brakes and had a full floater kit in the rear. I think swapping out all the running gear for a mild trail rig with 31s or 32s is a waste of time and $$$! Maybe if you were going hard core wheeling. I'd save my $$$ and run the stock stuff. Maybe upgrade to disk brakes,but 11s will work fine on the little flat fender.

Hoghead....I am with you bro! The AMC V8 is one great engine! They run forever and can take abuse no Chevy,Ford or Dodge V8 could ever hope to handle!!!

But putting one in a Flattie is a little much! LOL

michaelksmith - May 9, 2012 05:32 AM (GMT)
So if I'm going to go with the Dana 18 transfer case, which makes sense, would I be better off adapting the sm465 (which is the one I've got) to the 18 as Daryl suggests, or should I get a t18 transmission to go with the 18, and not have to worry about the conversion?

HOGHEAD - May 9, 2012 10:14 AM (GMT)
Thanks RamblinCJ3B , Its going in a 74CJ-5 frame & running gear & a 3B body is going on it ,,, Ive mellowed out a little since my racing days,, So no NOS on this one, :rolleyes: So I think she'll be just fine,,, & look good too,,,, Butt I still get a kick out of rattlin cages,,, :rolleyes:

Duffer - May 9, 2012 01:36 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (michaelksmith @ May 9 2012, 12:32 AM)
So if I'm going to go with the Dana 18 transfer case, which makes sense, would I be better off adapting the sm465 (which is the one I've got) to the 18 as Daryl suggests, or should I get a t18 transmission to go with the 18, and not have to worry about the conversion?

The SM465, at least in my book, is stronger than either the T18 or the SM420. One could make a good case that maybe it's overkill and they weigh about 50 lbs more. However, not only do they work very well, they make one of the shortest transmission transfercase assemblies available using Novaks adapter. And you have it!!!

http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/kit_462.htm

The short package is very important because you want the longest rear driveshaft you can get. Your 350 likely has the long water pump which you will want to swap for the short version, along with the corresponding crank and water pump pulleys.

For an alternator bracket, these place the alternator high and out of the way and work with the short pump:

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/small-block-...ckets,3458.html

There may be similar ones available if you do some searching.

Depending on how the steering is engineered, you may or may not be able to use a stock power steering pump. I am using a kit similar to this one in my 3B:

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Power-Steeri...ings,33011.html

It makes a very compact installation and you can mount the reservoir about any place you want it. Mine is on the left side of the radiator.

I like to keep the vehicle as light as practical-better mileage, more nimble, and just easier on the drivetrain in general. Something that one should always keep in mind when building bumpers/winch mounts/cage/etc. And you will be building parts as there just isn't much commercially available for any of the flatties. If this is all done right, you will end up with a pretty exciting vehicle.

oldtime - May 9, 2012 02:42 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
does the dana 18 mean offset rear housing though? so I'd then need to get a cut-down offset 44 for the rear?

As you know the D18 uses the drop down offset output.
The D18 is nearly mandatory on an 80" or an 81" wheelbased CJ.
Yes any CJ axle with offset carrier will work with the D18.

QUOTE
So if I'm going to go with the Dana 18 transfer case, which makes sense, would I be better off adapting the sm465 (which is the one I've got) to the 18 as Daryl suggests, or should I get a t18 transmission to go with the 18, and not have to worry about the conversion?

Just depends. A properly chosen 3 speed could be a better choice.
First you need to determine your needs, your expected useage.

If mainly driven on the street with only mild to moderate offroad use the 3 speed is supreme.
There are many to chose from that will bolt direct to the "TEXAS" pattern.
Here the Borg Warner T-15 reigns as the supreme HD choice.
It is a smooth shifting transmission with the capacity to handle high HP.

If you need extra ranging ability for serious rock crawling the four speed should be chosen in lieu of the 3 speed.
The Borg Warner T98/ T18 are most desireable for reasons indicated under "Modification Parameters".
The Synchro Mesh transmissions will only become advantageous if you prefer GM engines.
Even if installing a GM engine a Borg Warner transmission may still be retained.




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