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 Swaping a V6 Dauntless into 3b
RVSwisher
Posted: Apr 29 2011, 10:42 PM


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Group: Members
Posts: 70
Member No.: 880
Joined: 23-June 10



Well spring has arrived and it is time to start working on the 3B. I was able to find a Dauntless 225 very close to my home and purchase a set of original 225 frame brackets from oldtime for why swap.

Looking at the frame, looks like i will need to remove the battery tray to remove the orginal 4 cylinder frame brackets.

Anyone have any suggetions regarding the process of swapping from a 4 cylinder to a dauntless 225.

I will be using a T90A transmission converted with an adaptor kit to mate up to the 225. I will be using the longer adapter, with the thought that I will be able to keep the transmission and transfercase in the orignal location.

Any thoughts or suggestions.

RVSwisher


--------------------
Vance Swisher
1953 CJ3B Trans-vintage / Dauntless 255 / T90A / D18 / Dana 27 & Flanged 44 / Warn Overdrive / 11" Brakes / Warn 8274 winch
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dortoh
Posted: Apr 30 2011, 12:36 AM


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Posts: 51
Member No.: 881
Joined: 25-June 10



I did a f134 to 225 v6 swap last summer on a 1964 cj5.

Measure 3 or 4 times before you weld those v6 brackets. I set mine in place and used Vise-grips and c-clamps to hold it during the fitting stages. I think I put it in and removed it 3 or 4 time before I got every thing just how I wanted it.

The t90 adapter I used still set the v6 back next to the firewall and I had to drill new holes and move the transmission and transfer-case forward one or more inches. I got lucky and my drive shafts all still worked the front one doesn't have much compression capability. But the next owner can deal with that.

I did remove the battery tray with the mounts. I moved the battery to the firewall. I also went with a cable for the clutch linkage. I think it is a stock one for a 1971 cj5 with v6.



--------------------
Lenard Gardiner
1964 CJ3B
1964 M416 trailer
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derekredmond
Posted: Apr 30 2011, 08:05 AM


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Posts: 284
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Joined: 25-June 08



Good luck Vance -- it's a time-honored swap. And your post reminds me of something that used to come up regularly, but I haven't seen for a while: somebody who swears they have a CJ-3B with a factory-installed V6. I guess some of these swaps were done a long time ago, and even by dealers, so they look pretty good.

Anyway, if you haven't seen the CJ-3B Engine Conversion Manual at http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/EngineSwap.html you'll want to read through it.

Derek
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williams3b54
Posted: Apr 30 2011, 05:09 PM


Williams3B54


Group: Members
Posts: 308
Member No.: 140
Joined: 25-November 08



I have been contiplating this swap for some time for my 54 CJ-3B but have not done it yet. But like Derek says check out the Engine conversion on the
cj-3b Teck page. 'CJ-3B engine conversion manual'
A guide for installing the jeep 225cuin V6
By Bruce D. Osborn

This is a very complete description of the pros and cons and the other stuff you need to know if doing this swap. I think it is very good info.
Don't over look the brakes if you do this swap. Also the steering will most likely have to change, but that is better anyway. Saginaw box and tie rods and drag links.
I would collect all of the stuff you need before you start the swap so it can be married at the time of the conversion, not later.
Dick W.


--------------------
1954 CJ-3B
Semi-modified for trail riding in the Northwest.
See photos on CJ-3B page owners photos 1954.
1968 CJ-5/1975 231 odd fire V-6/ many other mods. ordered new from Toledo 1968.
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RVSwisher
Posted: Apr 30 2011, 07:40 PM


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Group: Members
Posts: 70
Member No.: 880
Joined: 23-June 10



Thanks for the input so far. I have read the V6 Swap manual a couple of times and printed it off for refrence.

I have gathered 99% of the parts that I will need for the swap; including 11" brackes all the way around, 225 engine, 225 engnie frame mounts, exaust headers (flat drivers side exiting to the rear). I will be ording the Novak Transmission adaptor kit for the t90 (long adaptor not the new compact adaptor), complete rebuild kit for the t90, daul brake master cycliner from Herm. I have rebuilt my dana 18 and am in the process of rebuilding my Koenig model 51 PTO.

Looking for advice on the begining placement of the engine when I get to that point. Can I leave my transmission and transfer case at the original location or am i going to need to move them forward an inch or two.

Thanks, lots of questions to come. Photo will be coming soon, I just opened my photo bucket account.

RVSwisher


--------------------
Vance Swisher
1953 CJ3B Trans-vintage / Dauntless 255 / T90A / D18 / Dana 27 & Flanged 44 / Warn Overdrive / 11" Brakes / Warn 8274 winch
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Jon
Posted: May 1 2011, 07:58 AM


1954 CJ38


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Member No.: 1,007
Joined: 14-January 11



Please keep us posted with lots of photos. I am on the fence contemplating a swap. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on what the determining factors were to take the leap. I am basically at a stand still with my rebuild until I select the direction to take with the engine and all the nomenclature that comes along with it. Thanks


--------------------
54 (first one) all apart in basement, taking time, doing Engine swap (thinking sbc V8), disc brakes w/ vacuum assist. power steering. Love the look of a 3B but need the modern conveniences. Having a blast doing it.

A Wise man Is Cognizant Of What He Doesn't Know.

Worcester, MA
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williams3b54
Posted: May 1 2011, 01:10 PM


Williams3B54


Group: Members
Posts: 308
Member No.: 140
Joined: 25-November 08



I own a 1968 CJ-5 that I ordered in 68' with the 225cuin V-6. I think I can use the location of the V-6 in the CJ-5 as a starting point for engine location. My 68 came with the T-14A 3 speed tranny which I have swapped out for a T15. I broke the T14 three times. I had to design an adapter for it to the V6 bellhousing but the engine location stayed put.
The only thing I have noticed is that the front horns on the frame are a bit longer than the frame horns on the 54 CJ-3B. I am not positive but I think the axles are placed the same on both. In fact the drive lines are interchangeable, I think, I have not tried that yet. My 68 is still a runner, so I have not come to the point of dismantalling it. But I can use it for reference if I decide to go the V6 route in the "highhood".
Keep us posted on your progress, and any help this group of jeepers has I am sure will benefit your project.
Dick W.


--------------------
1954 CJ-3B
Semi-modified for trail riding in the Northwest.
See photos on CJ-3B page owners photos 1954.
1968 CJ-5/1975 231 odd fire V-6/ many other mods. ordered new from Toledo 1968.
Top
oldtime
Posted: May 1 2011, 02:39 PM


MODERATOR


Group: Co-Admin
Posts: 4,473
Member No.: 3
Joined: 12-July 08



First off I would like to mention the end time of CJ-3B production.
This occurred nearly simultaneous with the begining of 225 Dauntless CJ installations.
I do not see this as mere co-incidence considering that time and manpower are limited resources.
I have no proof but suspect a decision was made to sacrifice the 3B for the Dauntless.
This all occurred during the peak years of the automotive Horse Power Wars
Further opinions or data are certainly welcomed.

Please refer to: CJ-3B MODIFICATION PARAMETERS
http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_B...?showtopic=2591

Installation of a D-225 into a CJ-3B is a Trans-model modification.


--------------------
1953 TRANS-VINTAGE CJ-3B / AC 4693 fuel pump / YF 938 SD / Hurricane / 9-1/4" Auburn clutch / T90-C / 2.46 ratio D-18 / Warn O.D. / 5.375 final drive / Powr Lok Front + Rear / Dualmatic drive flanges / deluxe Koenig half cab / 12 volt generator
2nd full re-build using the best from all vintages of CJ-3B

1962 OPTIONAL-STOCK CJ-3B / Warn O.D. / Tigertop / Transport yellow (orange)
Currently serving as my one and only DAILY DRIVER

St Louis
Top
RVSwisher
Posted: May 1 2011, 05:38 PM


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 70
Member No.: 880
Joined: 23-June 10



Jon,

My kids and I were planning to keep the F-134 during our rebuild, but we took a ride with my brother who has an early CJ6 with a F-134. This ride made me concerned about the power and drivabilty of our 3B with the F-134. Our plan is to have a sunday driver to take out during the summer and get around to the local trout streams. The area we like to drive is hilly and we were not sure the F-134 would keep up with traffic. At the same time a 225 came availabe 45 minutes from our house. This made the decision easier, we picked up the 225 and started buying parts for the swap.

We are at the point we have torn down the jeep and are buy all the parts we need to start our rough build (engine, transmission rebuild, steering change, ect.). Hopfully will have our rough build done mid summer and take the rest of the summer to complete a finished rolling chassis. Body work and electrical would be in the summer of 2012.

RVS


--------------------
Vance Swisher
1953 CJ3B Trans-vintage / Dauntless 255 / T90A / D18 / Dana 27 & Flanged 44 / Warn Overdrive / 11" Brakes / Warn 8274 winch
Top
Jon
Posted: May 2 2011, 04:49 PM


1954 CJ38


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Member No.: 1,007
Joined: 14-January 11



RVSwisher,

Thanks for the feed back, sounds like my fear as well keeping up in traffic. I once bought a new Sportsman 335cc four wheeler and regretted not spending a little more money for the 500cc..... the 335 got you there but I was always last in the pack.

There are a few jeeps on you tube with the D-225, very inspirational..
This one sounds awesome http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed4pUuRPZBs&feature=related

What did you do about aquiring all the steering parts? Did you purchase a donor vehicle or just the parts alone? The power steering is a great bonus, I could use a smaller steering wheel. Before I tore my jeep down, it was really uncomfortable squeezing in there (maybe should loose a few lbs... hahah)..


Please keep us posted with the progress, it is greatly appreciated... Best, Jon


--------------------
54 (first one) all apart in basement, taking time, doing Engine swap (thinking sbc V8), disc brakes w/ vacuum assist. power steering. Love the look of a 3B but need the modern conveniences. Having a blast doing it.

A Wise man Is Cognizant Of What He Doesn't Know.

Worcester, MA
Top
oldtime
Posted: May 3 2011, 10:16 AM


MODERATOR


Group: Co-Admin
Posts: 4,473
Member No.: 3
Joined: 12-July 08



GENERAL CONSIDERATIONS

Installation of a Dauntless 225 (D-225) into a CJ-3B is a Trans-model modification.
Installation of a D-225 into a CJ-3B is not a direct copy of the CJ-5.
The differences are mainly due to the frame differences between these 2 models.
The CJ-5 frame is nearly 6" longer OAL than the CJ-3B frame.
There is NO exact common frame reference point between CJ-3 and CJ-5 models.
When comparing these two jeeps the best common frame reference point is the Ross pivot bolt centerline (CL).
Due to the very deep grill gaurd of the CJ-5, the CJ-3B has slighly more engine bay length.

Engine placement effects:

1)...Battery tray location / alternator clearance
2)...Differential / engine clearance
3)...Front propeller / bellhousing clearance
4)...Front and rear propeller shaft lengths
5)...Clutch control location
6)...Transmission location of shift tower centerline (CL)
7)...Fan / radiator clearance
8)...Firewall / engine clearance
9)...Ross pitman / bellhousing clearance
10).Exhaust routing

Basically the engine must fit between the firewall and the radiator with adequate clearance.
The engine, bellhousing and transmission plus adapters must all fit between the transfer case and the radiator core.
Regardless of transmission chosen the maindrive gear (input) needs to be 3/8" longer than the chosen length of bellhousing including bellhousing adapters if any.
Two Dauntless bellhousings were produced.
1965 to 1970 is the short Dauntless BOP bellhousing with GM bolt pattern.
1971 bellhousing is longer with a Jeep bolt pattern.

D-225 DATA
6-1/4"......1965-1970 D-225 bellhousing
8-7/8"......1971 D-225 bellhousing
1-5/16"... .Rear of D-225 to right side valve cover12-9/16"...Rear of D-225 to engine mount CL
22-3/4".....Rear of D-225 to fan mount
1-1/4".......Fan depth

VERTICLE AND TRANSVERSE D-225 PLACEMENT for CJ-3B

Following my own modification guidelines I highly recommend using D-225 frame mounting brackets taken from a CJ-5,6.
Doing so is advantageous since the frame width between these models is identicle.
When installing factory D-225 frame brackets the transverse (side to side) engine placement is predermined.
This places the engine 1-1/2" to the left of vehicle CL.
The verticle adjustment effecting propeller shaft and differential clearance is predetermined.
This best addresses concern #1 and effectively eliminates concerns #2 and #3.

LONGITUDINAL D-225 PLACEMENT for CJ-3B with T90

The standard transfer case fore/aft location is ideal for D-225 /T90 installations.
This standard transfer case fore/aft location eliminates concern #4 ,#5 and #6 when a T90 is installed.
Unlike CJ-5 with Dauntless the 3B transfer case is always bolted directly to the rear engine support crossmember.
Note that for CJ-3B the standard transfer case mounting face (texas pattern) is located exactly 2-5/8 rear of crossmember CL.

The following dimensions are all referenced from the mounting face of the transfer case.

ZERO...........rear transmission to transfer case (in standard 3B location)
2-5/8"..........rear engine support crossmember CL... also foremost body outrigger CL
3-3/8"..........T90 shift tower CL
8"................T90 transmission front to adapter
8-1/8"..........pedal pivot CL
10-5/8".........adapter to rear of bellhousing
15-5/8".........firewall recass
16-7/8".........bellhousing foreward to engine rear
18-1/8".........firewall
18-3/16".......right rear valve cover
22"..............spring pivot CL... also Ross box pivot bolt CL
29-7/16"...... D-225 frame bracket CL
38-3/8".........radiator shroud
39-5/8".........D-225 (not Buick 231) water pump mount face
40-7/8".........fan leading edge
42-7/8".........rear most radiator core (standard 3B radiator)
45-7/8".........radiator to grill
49-5/8".........grill mount at frame (plus/minus 1/4" of adjustement)
60-5/8" ........front of frame horn
60-3/4".........front of bumper

Adding / subtracting dimensions places the CL of the D-225 frame brackets 7-7/16" foreward of the Ross pivot bolt CL.
Standard adapters are used and the transfer case remains in the standard location.
So I consider this as the "standard" D-225 location into a CJ-3B.
This addresses concerns #7,#8 and #9.

For reference the Harrison radiator clears the Hurricane fan by 2-7/8".
And the F-134 Hurricane clears the 3B firewall by approx. 1". (need to verify due to firewall curvature)

Figures indicate that the radiator core to D-225 fan has an ideal 2" of clearance.
With the D-225 mounted in the specified location the firewall is cleared by about 1". (need to verify due to firewall curvature)
The Harrison radiator shroud box may need removal or modification depending on specific fan installed.

There are two basic variations for installing a T90 behind a D-225.
Typically one installs a longer 1-1/8" diameter maindrive gear into a T90 A along with the correct bearing carrier.
The T90 A then becomes a T90 J, the same as used with SW and PU models having 226 super Hurricane.
A bellhousing adapter is needed to mate the T90 to GM pattern bellhousing and extend the OAL of the power train.

COMPONENTS USED

AA 712502 2-5/8" adapter with 941665 bearing retainer or...
Trans-Dapt TD 25 93 adapter @ 2-5/8" with 9741458 bearing retainer
906203 maindrive gear
GM 9774035 bellhousing @ 6-1/4"
A-6156 rear engine support insulator at transmission (standard stock)

If one desires a complete set of T90 internal components can be built inside of the T86AA case.
This essentially provides a T90 with a "Jeep" bellhousing bolt pattern.
All that needed is the T86AA case along with the front bearing carrier.
One can then bolt the T86AA transmission case directly onto a 1971 Dauntless bellhousing.
Because the forks will vary only the T90 shift tower is used.
This procedure requires the use of no adapters and only uses Jeep parts.

COMPONENTS USED

994081 Jeep bellhousing 8-7/8"
906203 maindrive gear
941665 bearing retainer
941644 T-86AA case from CJ
939995 rear engine support insulator at transmission

T-90 DATA
8" ...........T90 OAL
9-1/4" .....maindrive gear (input) stick out
11-1/2" ...maindrive gear OAL
3-3/8"......T90 shift CL from rear
2-5/8"......T90 to early Dauntless bellhousing adapter


--------------------
1953 TRANS-VINTAGE CJ-3B / AC 4693 fuel pump / YF 938 SD / Hurricane / 9-1/4" Auburn clutch / T90-C / 2.46 ratio D-18 / Warn O.D. / 5.375 final drive / Powr Lok Front + Rear / Dualmatic drive flanges / deluxe Koenig half cab / 12 volt generator
2nd full re-build using the best from all vintages of CJ-3B

1962 OPTIONAL-STOCK CJ-3B / Warn O.D. / Tigertop / Transport yellow (orange)
Currently serving as my one and only DAILY DRIVER

St Louis
Top
Jon
Posted: May 3 2011, 07:40 PM


1954 CJ38


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Member No.: 1,007
Joined: 14-January 11



Oldtime, that is great info... Is is saved somewhere on this site?


--------------------
54 (first one) all apart in basement, taking time, doing Engine swap (thinking sbc V8), disc brakes w/ vacuum assist. power steering. Love the look of a 3B but need the modern conveniences. Having a blast doing it.

A Wise man Is Cognizant Of What He Doesn't Know.

Worcester, MA
Top
RVSwisher
Posted: May 7 2011, 10:30 PM


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 70
Member No.: 880
Joined: 23-June 10



Oldtime,

Thanks for the information. The kids and I are getting ready to start working on the 3B as spring has finally arrived in MN.

Thanks

RVSwisher


--------------------
Vance Swisher
1953 CJ3B Trans-vintage / Dauntless 255 / T90A / D18 / Dana 27 & Flanged 44 / Warn Overdrive / 11" Brakes / Warn 8274 winch
Top
oldtime
Posted: May 8 2011, 08:37 PM


MODERATOR


Group: Co-Admin
Posts: 4,473
Member No.: 3
Joined: 12-July 08



I'll provide additional information and clarify when, I get more time.
Attempting to cover multiple transmissions data in a single reply takes a lot of time to organize.
You are probably only concerned with the T-90 data but the other information is closely related.
I have T-15 and T-18 Data to add.


--------------------
1953 TRANS-VINTAGE CJ-3B / AC 4693 fuel pump / YF 938 SD / Hurricane / 9-1/4" Auburn clutch / T90-C / 2.46 ratio D-18 / Warn O.D. / 5.375 final drive / Powr Lok Front + Rear / Dualmatic drive flanges / deluxe Koenig half cab / 12 volt generator
2nd full re-build using the best from all vintages of CJ-3B

1962 OPTIONAL-STOCK CJ-3B / Warn O.D. / Tigertop / Transport yellow (orange)
Currently serving as my one and only DAILY DRIVER

St Louis
Top
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