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Title: #745 POMF
Description: The sound summoned flowers make


Tonberry2k - November 30, 2011 06:48 AM (GMT)
Hmm... Only person I can think of with red hair is Banon. :P

jaimehlers - November 30, 2011 06:52 AM (GMT)
Seems like she's a normal little girl...who just happens to have high-level Touched powers.

Drekal - November 30, 2011 06:58 AM (GMT)
On a hunch, I went and checked a few things. Rydia's mom has red hair. And Mist is in right between a cave and a desert.

jaimehlers - November 30, 2011 07:17 AM (GMT)
Dang, you beat me to it.

It isn't absolute confirmation, but it very strongly supports "the child" being Young Rydia. Also...*cough* "Summon Flowers!"

mordain - November 30, 2011 07:40 AM (GMT)
For those saying it's young Rydia... why doesn't she look anything like Rydia?

~ Sophie - November 30, 2011 08:02 AM (GMT)
Because the Sovereign. She warps perception of herself to an expected form of the viewer...what's to say she can't do the same for the shard-bearer?

mordain - November 30, 2011 08:34 AM (GMT)
Except no one recognizes this girl. Just like no one would recognize Rydia. There's no point in changing one random girl to another random girl, unless the shard is trying to fool us (and I don't think JD is going quite that meta yet).

Cyrus - November 30, 2011 11:27 AM (GMT)
Although I'm not convinced, myself, I would assume it's a "matching the style of the world" thing. Kid Rydia would look... Comparatively jarring; either her map sprite is there, which is in the wrong proportions, or her battle sprite is there, which looks awfully chibi when placed against FF6's style.

But, of course, we don't know how unusual that would look to in-game characters, anyways.

jaimehlers - November 30, 2011 12:03 PM (GMT)
As I said, it doesn't confirm it, but it is strong evidence in favor of the proposition.

Also, look at it from the other angle. Where in FFVI are we going to find a town that can legitimately be described as being between a cave and a desert? The closest match that the FFVI characters could come up with is South Figaro, but that is a bad match because South Figaro is on the wrong side of the Cave of Figaro. It's between an ocean and a cave, and the closest deserts are either on the other side of the cave or on the other side of the ocean.

enlong - November 30, 2011 02:33 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (jaimehlers @ Nov 30 2011, 12:03 PM)
As I said, it doesn't confirm it, but it is strong evidence in favor of the proposition.

Also, look at it from the other angle. Where in FFVI are we going to find a town that can legitimately be described as being between a cave and a desert? The closest match that the FFVI characters could come up with is South Figaro, but that is a bad match because South Figaro is on the wrong side of the Cave of Figaro. It's between an ocean and a cave, and the closest deserts are either on the other side of the cave or on the other side of the ocean.

There are caves in Mount Koltz.

Ti-Phil - November 30, 2011 05:37 PM (GMT)
Definitively kid Rydia.

jaimehlers - November 30, 2011 05:49 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (enlong @ Nov 30 2011, 09:33 AM)
There are caves in Mount Koltz.

So? Go look at a map of the World of Balance to see the relative locations of the Figaro desert, the Cave of Figaro, South Figaro, and Mt. Koltz, and you'll see why this doesn't matter. For that matter, go look at a map of the World of Ruin and tell me when you find Mt. Koltz.

My point stands, whichever map you refer to. In the World of Balance, South Figaro is at the southern end of the continent; further south is the ocean. The Cave of Figaro and Mt. Koltz both are north of South Figaro (northwest and northeast, respectively), and the Figaro desert is northwest of the Cave of Figaro.

And in the World of Ruin, South Figaro is at the eastern end of its landmass. The Cave of Figaro and the Figaro desert are both west of it. While there is a desert further east, it is across a rather substantial body of water and thus it would be kind of silly to say that it was between a desert and a cave, because you can't get directly from one to the other.

Compare that to Final Fantasy 4; before Rydia closed the path by summoning Titan, the village of Mist was directly between the Cave of Mist and the desert of Kaipo. You could walk from the Cave of Mist, through the village of Mist, and into the desert of Kaipo.

mordain - November 30, 2011 06:42 PM (GMT)
You guys are missing the fact that there's another rather important desert in the comic. :P

There's also the fact that all of the FFIV characters didn't consider Marle jarring, and she was twice the height of anyone else (it just served as evidence that she wasn't Rosa). Waiting for an actual reason why Rydia's appearance would change, still (and why it would change THAT drastically... green hair isn't strange in the FFVI world and leotards remain fairly standard attire for females).

HeroicJay - November 30, 2011 07:33 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (mordain @ Nov 30 2011, 11:42 AM)
green hair isn't strange in the FFVI world

Actually, other than Gau's official art/character portrait*, Terra is the only human (well, half-human) character in the entire FF6 world to have an unusual hair color, and, as stated, she's only half-human. Of course, no one ever seems to notice her odd hair color, but it's still true that no one else has it.

* - And, for the record, Terra's official art shows her as a blonde. Gau is kind of a sandy blond in-game.

Anyway,

I can't help but notice that, at least in this comic, maybe-Rydia is talking like a perfectly ordinary little girl. Other than the cries for her missing mommy, she's not acting sorrow-touched at all, despite the purple text and ominous dark aura that somehow our three FF6 heroines fail to notice. Indeed, she's downright EXCITED to be part of the wedding, talking about all the stuff she likes at weddings (okay, I don't know what princesses and chocobos have to do with ordinary weddings, but this is a stereotypical little girl we're talking about here - princesses and ponies are THE stereotypical little girl interests.)

Is her shard giving her the purple text and aura WITHOUT turning her into a raving suicidal loon? Or is there more to the purple text than angsting?

mordain - November 30, 2011 07:43 PM (GMT)
So... one of the characters in the game has green hair (depending on if you go by sprites or official art) and no one ever comments on it as odd.

I think my point is still valid. Besides, this girl looks NOTHING like Rydia. It's more than just "Whups, her hair is too weird, better change that", it's a completely different sprite.

Notty - November 30, 2011 08:23 PM (GMT)
Also, wasn't the whole reason adult!Rydia sent Marle into Nexus to find aforementioned child-with-shard-that-we-presume-to-be-child!Rydia?

Why would she randomly be in FF6-ville instead of Nexus?

Pata Hikari - November 30, 2011 09:08 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (mordain @ Nov 30 2011, 08:34 AM)
Except no one recognizes this girl. Just like no one would recognize Rydia. There's no point in changing one random girl to another random girl, unless the shard is trying to fool us (and I don't think JD is going quite that meta yet).

Because videoland is weird.

aturtledoesbite - November 30, 2011 09:24 PM (GMT)
I think I can explain the art change from kid Rydia to random FF3 sprite. It is mentioned by Daos, upon his meeting with the Mask, that the Mask's form would, to a lesser being, change to something that the being could comprehend easily. This is evidenced several times, from Roy's claim that she looked like Princess Peach, to the several eye-witness accounts of the Sovereign talking to Mrs. Squaresly. It's possible that the Shard has this power upon its carriers as well, even though they already have forms. The FF3 gang simply perceive young Rydia as a random little girl sprite because the only other little girl sprite there is in FF3 is Relm, and she's standing right there.

EDIT: Also, I find it odd that in the half-panel Terra notices the newly-summoned flowers, Rydia?'s aura sort of fits the form, while in the rest of the panels, the aura is round. I also love how Rydia? is being vague, intentional or not, about herself. I mean, the only thing she's mentioned is that her mom has red hair and her town is between a desert and a cave.

Here's a thought: If the kid is Rydia, it explains why she ties weddings to princesses. After all, the only weddings in FF2 were between royalty. It might explain the chocobos, too, due to mounted knights or some such.

jaimehlers - November 30, 2011 09:28 PM (GMT)
Who said this didn't happen before the events in Nexus? There was a four-month period between when Bob lost the Shard and the 'present' of the comic.

Also, if the girl is carrying the Shard, then who is to say that the Shard could not be causing the different appearance? The Sovereign had the power to appear as a different person to everyone who saw her. And Daos said that the wearer of the Mask might appear different to other people as well. It follows that the Shard could have a similar power.

As I said earlier, this isn't confirmation, but it does support the idea of this being child-Rydia, or at least the child who has the Shard of Tears. There's some additional circumstantial evidence for her being child-Rydia, as well, such as the fact that she remembers her mother but doesn't know what happened to her (whereas adult-Rydia doesn't remember her mother but presumably knows that she died).

Sir Donald - November 30, 2011 11:24 PM (GMT)
First up:

QUOTE (jaimehlers)
Where in FFVI are we going to find a town that can legitimately be described as being between a cave and a desert?


WoR Kohologen. Granted, said cave is a tomb and said desert is merely a sliver enough for Figaro Castle to surface but it's there. Fail on Celes' part for not thinking of her new husband's hometown!

Next: At first, I was in complete agreement with Mordain's point. There's no need for the deception against us/Ryan. Unless Alex is wanting to demonstrate something him (and us). Or just play around with him. By the way, we're looking for the Rydia with a bib, not the Rydia with a snake-hood and leotard.

EDIT: Then again, Turtle makes a good counter-point. Still, presuming that this is the shard bearer, this is the first time we've seen either of the Sovereign's forms directly. Also, we (and Ryan) are seeing it in flashback, just as Magus only encountered her through another's mind and Alex only thus far saw her through Lisa's flashback...

Hm... there may be a point here. Granted, the first was most likely the Mask; the second we don't quite know. Doesn't confirm stuff, but like was said before, doesn't rule it out... /EDIT

Finally: Notty raises another good point which trumps the most recent argument that jaime is trying to make as to "what's to say Kid!Rydia didn't come here first?" To quote myself from a previous thread:

QUOTE (Sir Donald @ Topic #741)
Also, for the shard bearer to be in this world would require a hithertofore unknown gate between there and Nexus.  Wouldn't you have thought that we would have a blink-and-you'll-miss-it type of reference to such a gate before now?


I added a link within the quote. The linked comics demonstrate that the portal is from Damcyan to Nexus. Neither this comic, nor the Chrono Trigger source, have demonstrated any stable portal's ability to relocate in any dimension. (Neither physically, Chronologically, nor trans-dimensionally. The main CT portals are implied to be running on equal time and the End of Time is essentially a point at infinity, so it's point relative to the presnts is the same. Sort of a non-Euclidian Geometric reference.)


mordain - November 30, 2011 11:49 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Nov 30 2011, 01:24 PM)
It is mentioned by Daos, upon his meeting with the Mask, that the Mask's form would, to a lesser being, change to something that the being could comprehend easily.

There's nothing difficult to comprehend about child-Rydia's standard form. She looks like a little girl.

Basically all the answers to my question thus far have been "obviously the shard would change her form because the shard COULD change her form". Not a single actual reason for it to do so has yet been given.

And as a kind-of counterpoint - the mask shows the Sovereign as a familiar form because the mask has no other body to show. The mask is an object, a kind of free-floating energy with consciousness, but no physical form except what is perceived by the eyes of observers. It's not being HELD by anyone the way the shard is.

Also the shard is quite clearly a lot different from the mask. The child is just acting like a stereotypical little girl. If she hadn't used magic no one would ever have realized something was wrong with her (Relm's aggravation aside).

jaimehlers - December 1, 2011 12:54 AM (GMT)
mordain: First off, no. The Mask is being worn, it isn't just "a kind of free-floating energy with consciousness". Daos made that exceptionally clear by describing the Mask as being set on a human vessel of noble blood and purest despair.

Second, the Shard does not appear to be aware, the way the Mask is. So it isn't doing anything on its own. Whatever's happening, if anything is happening, is something that would happen normally. So maybe the Shard split child-Rydia from adult-Rydia, so it's the Shard's power that's providing the body, but the personality is as yet unaffected by the Shard's proximity.

mordain - December 1, 2011 01:26 AM (GMT)
I don't think Daos was actually the best witness, but okay.

(Shame, I rather liked the idea.)

aturtledoesbite - December 1, 2011 02:07 AM (GMT)
Hmm...perhaps "comprehend" isn't the most accurate word here. Here's a better explanation. The viewer, when seeing the wielder, sees him/her as the closest approximation to the truth that they can recognize. For the Sovereign, most see her as a princess or queen from their own world since she is, in fact, a female ruler. The FF3 group see kid Rydia as a generic little girl because that is the closest "female child" sprite they are familiar with.

As for why the Mask/Shard would do this, I do not believe it is an intentional act of the piece so much as an intrinsic effect of wielding it. For example, there's the scene in FF2 where Kain, after retrieving the Crystal from the Sealed Cave, reverts to being Golbez's minion and steals the Crystal. This event triggers when you have the Crystal in your inventory, whether it be from defeating the Demon Wall in the Sealed Cave or using the Warp trick to keep the one in the Dwarf Castle. You do not have to *use* the Crystal, the event is simply an intrinsic effect of having the Crystal in your inventory. I believe the Mask and Shard work similarly in how other sprites cannot grasp the true form of the wielder.

Also, as MFD said a few threads ago, there is no reason to believe that this is any time other than the "present", being defined as being concurrent with the other plot threads. I believe that when kid Rydia was escaping from Wily, she used Warp. The Shard used its power (or rather, Rydia inadvertently tapped into its power) to boost the power of Warp. This caused her to end up in the world of FF3. Of course, this is just pure conjecture.



P.S. Let's see who finds my reference first.

EDIT: I find it odd that Ryan? hasn't said anything since Rydia? showed up. He can see the purple text and aura. And I doubt he's figured it out. Hmm...

Knight - December 1, 2011 03:58 AM (GMT)
I'm still operating on the assumption that Schala Zeal is the bearer of the Mask.

Lucavi - December 1, 2011 06:01 AM (GMT)
I wish Ryan was speaking through this wedding; it'd be nice to hear a bit of commentary to help solve some of these... riddles. Alex usually has a nice habit of leaving a few kernels of truth for us to nibble on.

Gaius - December 1, 2011 06:15 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Knight @ Dec 1 2011, 03:58 AM)
I'm still operating on the assumption that Schala Zeal is the bearer of the Mask.

... Did I miss someone contesting this? I'm raising an eyebrow, but I'd be curious to read a theory against it.
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Dec 1 2011, 02:07 AM)
Also, as MFD said a few threads ago, there is no reason to believe that this is any time other than the "present", being defined as being concurrent with the other plot threads.

Taking things in isolation, there's no reason to believe that this is not concurrent with the other plot threads and no reason to believe that this is concurrent with the other plot threads. Why do you dismiss the latter out of hand? I'll grant the former's the more tidy explanation and it's more often the case. But Alex doesn't have to tell the story chronologically: he could easily show the FF VI stuff before (or after) it'd synch up with the other plot threads. Never mind a direct statement that "time is subjective in Videoland."

... Also, if I've misinterpreted the argument you guys were making, and you simply meant that it's likely this is concurrent with the other plot threads, then I withdraw the rambling. ^_^o

mordain - December 1, 2011 06:43 AM (GMT)
I think it's "treat is as concurrent unless/until proven otherwise". This could easily be taking place before the other events, but it's isolated as yet. If it merges back up another storyline in the 'past', then that would be rather bad planning on JD's part...

Kawaresksenjajok - December 1, 2011 09:15 AM (GMT)
*A New Challenger Has Appeared!*

I don't think this is kid Rydia. What evidence of time warp have we seen in the comic thus far? This could very well be a kid from Mist but I think it's a far cry to say it's Rydia. I will say that I assume:

- This girl has the Shard
- Schala has the Mask
- The Sovreign is on the Lunarian Moon

So we at least know which three points need to *not* converge (but almost certainly will). I think I'm most interested in Bob's story at this point.

MFD - December 1, 2011 03:12 PM (GMT)
I suggested it was a random Mobliz orphan because Terra saw her first and solidified the form. Here's another idea.

Schala has the Mask. The Mask turns her into a form beyond spritely comprehension. Everyone sees her as Royalty. We thought it was because she's the Sovereign, but maybe it's because she's Schala.

So... Kid Rydia with the Shard is beyond comprehension... and appears as a child.

Knight - December 1, 2011 03:22 PM (GMT)
Eh, could be, I guess. Makes more sense than the other way around, anyway.

SorataYuy - December 1, 2011 06:29 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (MFD @ Dec 1 2011, 10:12 AM)
I suggested it was a random Mobliz orphan because Terra saw her first and solidified the form.

Nope! Maria saw her first, we just didn't get to see that meeting.

HeroicJay - December 1, 2011 09:16 PM (GMT)
To those unaware, the idea that the girl with the shard is Kid-ia probably has its basis not in the fact that she is possibly from Mist or had a mother with red hair, but from this comic.

QUOTE (Bob)
Let the pain of the past manifest, for all to see.


QUOTE (Rydia)
I felt a horrible pain, as though I was being torn in two...


Both quotes fit the child being Kid-ia, somehow manifested by Bob.

Knight - December 1, 2011 11:31 PM (GMT)
I think there's about as much debate about "the child with the shard" being young Rydia as there is about the mask bearer being Schala (the latter even using the same sprite outline). the only real question is whether we're looking at the shard-bearer currently or some other form of Touched.

Sir Donald - December 2, 2011 08:58 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Nov 30 2011, 10:07 PM)
I believe the Mask and Shard work similarly in how other sprites cannot grasp the true form of the wielder.

Could that be because Nexus is at war with Eagleland? (Only kidding. Turtle did challenge...)

Seriously, though. Yeah, there would seem to be some sort of "Devil's Machine" effect at work. But Kid-ia and Schala aren't just palling around in a spider mech; they're actually necessary to carry their totems, but they have little control over themselves, I deem. Sort of the opposite of Pokey.

jaimehlers - December 2, 2011 03:08 PM (GMT)
We don't know for sure what's going on with child-Rydia. She doesn't seem to be acting like an avatar of Sorrow. So if it's happening, it must be quite subtle.

Something just occurred to me. Two things. First, if the Shard is directed towards the past, then maybe that is why child-Rydia isn't acting all mopey and sorrowful, because her memories (which presumably end right before the destruction of Mist) are not sad.

Second, what if Sorrow repels itself? It's funny that, no sooner did Bob use the Shard in FFIV, where the Sovereign's body is, than "the child" came and took it back through the warp zone. That could explain why the Sovereign needs the Gamemaster, immune to the effects of Sorrow, to collect the pieces of the Sovereign, because normal sprites that bear the various pieces are repelled from each other.

Joseph Collins - December 2, 2011 05:08 PM (GMT)
Changing the topic altogether, I'd like to point out that magic can never truly be destroyed. Only dispersed. It's kind of like that theory about energy. In fact, it's that same theory at work because magic is simply a different kind of natural energy. Anyway, my point is that the girl summoning flowers isn't at all strange if you ponder the possibility that that the natural connection to magical energies was interrupted, rather than completely broken, when Kefka and the Warring Triad faded out of sight.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Zap Rowsdower - December 2, 2011 05:09 PM (GMT)
Well, it can't be destroyed, but it isn't being generated anymore. Casting a spell in that world is typically light flicking the light switch in a home connected to a power plant with no turbines.

aturtledoesbite - December 2, 2011 06:46 PM (GMT)
This could be further proof that the child is Rydia. See, in FF3, those with magic borrowed it from the Espers, who, in turn, borrowed it from the Triad. In FF2, it's simply a result of training (or defeating your dark side). The magical power there comes from the caster. It is not borrowed from greater beings. For this child to be able to use magic, the magical power would have had to have come from the child, since the Triad is gone. Therefore, the child most likely originated in FF2.

As for the theory that the child is simply an ordinary Mist child, but not Rydia: There are no sprites of female child summoners in FF2 except for Rydia. All of the others are presumed dead from the Package, and never shown on the screen. The sprites left are not summoners. None of them would be able to cast "Summon Flowers". Remember that Sorrow only enhances pre-existing traits. Rydia is the only option for this.

For the Shard-wielder vs. uber-Touched argument: The child's personality is that of an ordinary sprite. The only sadness we've seen from her is wondering where her mommy was, and it seems easy to distract her from that point. Also, the color and font of her text shows that the Sovereign herself is there in some way. All evidence points to the Shard.

Also, there is a need to semi-correct myself: It is Schala's form who Roy sees as Peach. However, Schala is still a princess so those who see her would see the most prominent "princess" sprite from their own world. However, the witnesses for Mrs. Squaresly's guest - the complete Sovereign - also see her as the closest "female ruler" sprite they are familiar with.

EDIT: Nice job catching that, Sir Donald. However, I should mention that the Devil's Machine was not Pokey's spider thing. The Devil's Machine was the huge fleshy thing that Ness and co. were standing on, and also the casing that Giygas rested within. When the Machine was turned off, the fleshy parts disappeared and the un-grasp-able form of Giygas was released (and your Devil's Machine emulator crashes, too, if you're using that).

EDIT2: I find it interesting that you people continue to refer to the games as FFIV and FFVI, knowing that they are based on the American counterparts, FF2 and FF3.

HeroicJay - December 2, 2011 08:54 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Dec 2 2011, 11:46 AM)
EDIT2: I find it interesting that you people continue to refer to the games as FFIV and FFVI, knowing that they are based on the American counterparts, FF2 and FF3.

I find the GBA versions of both games to be superior to the SNES versions all around, and the GBA versions use the Japanese numbers. That and FF2 and FF3 can refer to different games entirely; FF4 and FF6 are unambiguous. Both factors combined have trained me to use the Japanese numbers in most contexts.

However, since this comic is about Captain SNES, not Captain GBA, I can accept the comic's use of the American SNES numbers.




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