View Full Version: #750 Heartless Victory

Captain SNES > Comic-by-comic > #750 Heartless Victory


Title: #750 Heartless Victory


Algasir - December 22, 2011 07:50 AM (GMT)
Locke is a master of kill stealing because it lets him get to the treasure first.

EDIT: Also is Strago just having a normal heart attack from Kefka's re-appearance or is there something I missed from not playing Final Fantasy VI?

Notty - December 22, 2011 08:16 AM (GMT)
He prefers to think of it as kill-treasure hunting.

Man, I really have to wonder how much of an embarrassing anti-climax the ending of the normal games must've been for all of the FF characters...

aturtledoesbite - December 22, 2011 08:22 AM (GMT)
On the bright side, the heroes have finally figured out that the girl isn't quite...normal. On the not-so-bright side, she herself has not. Of course, it also doesn't help that she sees Kefka as just a clown. But that's countered by the fact that he dies in about ten seconds anyway.

Cyrus - December 22, 2011 08:28 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Notty @ Dec 22 2011, 12:16 AM)
He prefers to think of it as kill-treasure hunting.

Man, I really have to wonder how much of an embarrassing anti-climax the ending of the normal games must've been for all of the FF characters...

First off, ahahahahaaaaa. That's one of the funniest things I've read in a while!

Secondly, probably pretty bad for every one of them but 7, 8, and 12. (samphamaroth getting bonus stats for each character at 99, Ultimecia leveling with you, and Vayne being able to ignore defenses and two shot max level characters as he pleases)

That whole prediction about the little girl running off with Kefka is getting ever more likely! Who knows, maybe it'll change him for the bett- pffffhahahahah, okay, I can't say that with a straight face.

ShadowWarriorLuke - December 22, 2011 12:12 PM (GMT)
7: Knights of the Round + Mime
8: Aura + Continuous use of limit breaks

Even at max level they don't really stand much of a chance. Can't comment on 12 though.

aturtledoesbite - December 22, 2011 01:59 PM (GMT)
For XII, once you hit 99, you can pretty much just attack with the occasional Scathe when he puts up a Paling and you're good to go. He's only got around 200,000 HP, I think. Hell, a completely-maxed character can easily do 9999*12 damage per attack. So yeah, two of those and that's it...granted, even with max levels, you have to be fairly lucky to chain off two 12-hit combos.

EDIT: Also, for your VII and VIII strategies:
VII) Yeah, sure, we can do KotR. Of course, that's only if you have a few hours of spare time. :P
VIII) To make that even easier, start off with Meltdown. Attack that reduces Defense (and maybe M. Defense) to zero. No enemy in the game is resistant. This lets pretty much any character hit for 9999. Couple that with the fact that Squall's Lion Heart hits for, I think, 25 times...yeah.

EDIT2: Back on topic, I find it interesting how Celes sees the girl responsible for Strago's recent bad health, as well.

Also, I wonder if that three months in the forest are in-game or real-world...

EDIT3 (eventually I'll run out of details to notice after I finish editing :P): Well, at least this confirms that Locke had the Atma Weapon. Though, I don't understand what he means by "Stole it from rest."

Hmm...It also seems that the girl has more powers than just summoning. She managed to revive Kefka easily. Curious about that is that I don't think young Rydia learns Life. Hell, I know for a fact that she doesn't learn Cure2.

MFD - December 22, 2011 02:46 PM (GMT)
She doesn't seem to be casting a spell.

As an editor I looked up Rest. You can steal a second Atma Weapon from it. So Locke is equipped with Atma x 2.

Bobulus - December 22, 2011 02:48 PM (GMT)
It's a shame FF8 is not a SNES-era game, because it has the silliest way to break the game:

Because all the monsters (including the final boss!) scale with you, and you can increase your stats without leveling via the junctioning system, the best way to break the game in half is to fight as little as possible, try not to level up, etc.

I watched a guy play that game who faced off against the final boss, who was level 13 and only had 12,000ish HP when the main character could hit for 9999!

Knight - December 22, 2011 04:32 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Dec 22 2011, 06:59 AM)
Hmm...It also seems that the girl has more powers than just summoning. She managed to revive Kefka easily. Curious about that is that I don't think young Rydia learns Life. Hell, I know for a fact that she doesn't learn Cure2.

I'm standing by someone's earlier outburst that the Shard basically has the power of RETCON.
user posted image

aturtledoesbite - December 22, 2011 04:43 PM (GMT)
It was made quite clear, however, that Sorrow can only *enhance* traits. Not grant them.

Also, dare I ask where that picture is from? >_>

Knight - December 22, 2011 05:01 PM (GMT)
Granted powers, yes, but the girl is carrying the shard itself. I suspect there's a few powers specific to the shard and/or mask, that the bearer can manipulate.

That doesn't explain how Lisa went from having no powers at all to being able to hunt down and destroy every hero named Alex in Videoland, though...

And I have no idea. It's been around this forum for a long time.

Zap Rowsdower - December 22, 2011 05:32 PM (GMT)
Megas XLR, The Big Red Button that changes its label depending on the episode. I'm fairly certain that's an edit as I don't remember that label happening in the show.

On the comic, why do I get the feeling that even if she hears him do an evil rant, she'll think its a comedy routine?

aturtledoesbite - December 22, 2011 05:32 PM (GMT)
Hmm...let's rewind here. First off, let me state all the facts that we know about this girl:
1) She's looking for her mother.
2) She lives in a town between a desert and a cave.
3) She's giving off a dense aura of sorrow. (Also Touched, but that's implied.)
4) She is, in some way, responsible for Kefka and magic returning, Terra becoming an Esper again and flying off, and Strago's heart attack.
5) Her concept of a wedding involves princesses and chocobos.
6) She likes clowns.

Now, for what seem to be the general consensus on matters (feel free to correct/yell at me):
1) She is Rydia's child form, before the Package destroyed Mist.
2) She is the girl that stole the Shard of Tears from Bob, had a possible run-in with the Puzzle Wizard, was caught by Dr. Wily, and escaped to locations unknown.

Now then, you people use this to try to explain things.

P.S. Why exactly do they keep killing Kefka if he's harmless? I mean, instinct's one thing, but you'd think that they would have learned by now.

Zap Rowsdower - December 22, 2011 05:33 PM (GMT)
He's harmless to the overleveled main characters. He's still apocalyptic to everybody else.

aturtledoesbite - December 22, 2011 05:34 PM (GMT)
Well, now that everyone else is evacuated, there should be no trouble. Not to mention Kefka has a few bones to pick with the PCs, so he'll obviously focus on them first.

Gaius - December 22, 2011 05:46 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
Granted powers, yes, but the girl is carrying the shard itself. I suspect there's a few powers specific to the shard and/or mask, that the bearer can manipulate.

That doesn't explain how Lisa went from having no powers at all to being able to hunt down and destroy every hero named Alex in Videoland, though...
Lisa was able to hit Pause on reality, though. I don't really know her in-game role very well beyond 'love interest,' but that... really doesn't feel like a natural extension of her abilities. Is it possible the 'only natural qualities' statement either wasn't true (particularly if from a questionable speaker) or was incomplete?

As for all the dead Alexes... Even only being able to Pause everyone but herself (and other Touched?) could be a pretty ridiculous boon for a murderer. One could even argue that a love interest is about getting closer to the hero than anyone, so being Touched could enhance that capacity. And once close enough that the hero's guard is down (possibly in a cutscene), out comes the knife. Yay, wild speculation~

QUOTE
And I have no idea. It's been around this forum for a long time.

It looks like an edited picture from Megas-XLR. Of course, given the nature of the show, it would not surprise me if it was unedited. ^__^

EDIT: And ninja'd. Glee. ^_^o

EDIT2: And Locke in the final panel gives a good explanation for why Kefka continues to die: the treasure hunter thought Kefka might be legitimately threatening after the girl's pep-talk. Which, to be honest, really looked like it might happen, for a moment there.

mordain - December 22, 2011 07:14 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Dec 22 2011, 09:32 AM)
P.S. Why exactly do they keep killing Kefka if he's harmless? I mean, instinct's one thing, but you'd think that they would have learned by now.

He's not harmless; he's just weak compared to them.

It also sounded like he was going to get a massive power boost from the girl, there (half of you expected it too). Fortunately his pure and loving heart is apparently not very strong.

aturtledoesbite - December 22, 2011 08:54 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (mordain @ Dec 22 2011, 01:14 PM)
Fortunately his pure and loving heart is apparently not very strong.

I don't see how. I mean, he's obviously very pure and loving. He's like FFVI's Saint Teresa. He even (indirectly) created an orphanage! :P

mordain - December 22, 2011 09:15 PM (GMT)
I'm just calling out the circumstantial evidence, here. Talk to JD about his scandalous defamation of Kefka's character. :P

Sir Donald - December 22, 2011 10:23 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Dec 22 2011, 12:43 PM)
It was made quite clear, however, that Sorrow can only *enhance* traits. Not grant them.

Need I remind people that Kid!Rydia had White Magic in her skillset?

EDIT: Oh, and *nearly choked* on Turtle's most recent post.

SorataYuy - December 22, 2011 10:26 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (ShadowWarriorLuke @ Dec 22 2011, 07:12 AM)
8: Aura + Continuous use of limit breaks

To make it even funnier, I had several Holy-War items - and Selphie ended up in my party right from the start. "The End" came up for all three fights, within two Slot shuffles. "Okay game, you obviously want this over quickly..." I just sat back and let Ultimecia go through her spiel, and even the last fight was over within a couple minutes.

aturtledoesbite - December 23, 2011 12:35 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Sir Donald @ Dec 22 2011, 04:23 PM)
Need I remind people that Kid!Rydia had White Magic in her skillset?

And if you read the rest of my post, you'll notice where I mention that she never learned Life. Life was never in her skillset, so it shouldn't logically be usable. However, there is the possibility that the power of Sorrow only goes so far as the categories. If so, then she could theoretically cast Life or Life2.

...You know, based on what we've seen so far (Summon Flowers, Summon Kefka), that may be how it works.

Algasir - December 23, 2011 01:49 AM (GMT)
Young Rydia actually learns a few more White Magic spells in the DS version of FFIV. That doesn't really mean anything here, but eh.

And Young Rydia only learns Cure, Sight, and Hold in all the other versions of FFIV.

aturtledoesbite - December 23, 2011 02:08 AM (GMT)
True, but as you said, it doesn't matter. For two reasons, actually
1) Post-2001 and post-SNES, of course.
2) FFIVDS was, arguably, a completely different game from all other versions of FFIV. Only thing similar was the story. Hell, I even think Spoony was useful when you got him in FFIVDS. That obviously marks it as not a true FFIV.

Knight - December 23, 2011 02:41 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Dec 22 2011, 05:35 PM)
However, there is the possibility that the power of Sorrow only goes so far as the categories. If so, then she could theoretically cast Life or Life2.

Lucca didn't have summons at all, but her elemental control let her summon Phoenix. Broad categories.

aturtledoesbite - December 23, 2011 03:01 AM (GMT)
Hmm...it may have something to do with the fact that she was in a Final Fantasy world at the time. Regardless of exactly which world she was in, her elemental mastery of Fire, magnified by Sorrow, gave her access to all Fire-elemental SNES Final Fantasy summons since she was in a Final Fantasy world. This would include Ifrit, Phoenix, and...erm, what other Fire-elementals were there?

Of course, I'm just pulling all of this out of my butt...

Gaius - December 23, 2011 04:38 AM (GMT)
Where did the line of 'Sorrow can only enhance traits' come from, again? It's what I've always believed, too, but I really can't remember the origin. Part of me wonders if there's any reason to think the source gave an incomplete answer. Admittedly, this is mostly a matter of Lisa Pausing reality, which doesn't seem to build off any innate qualities at all. Granted, Roll showed how far 'innate qualities' can stretch (i.e. turn "cuteness" into a devastatingly potent influence).

Also, I'm kinda casting my vote for 'Shard of Tears' shenanigans, if she does indeed have it: the girl explicitly cast Summon Flowers, but everything Kefka-related has just kinda... happened when she said stuff. That doesn't seem to follow the Touched examples we've seen: if they're extensions of her Summon and White Magic, shouldn't she still have to cast to use them? Though it's possible that's the kind of extension the Shard allows. Still, kinda leaning more toward reality-rewriting.

aturtledoesbite - December 23, 2011 05:03 AM (GMT)
Spoony says it when Cecil asks him if he was granted the ability to telepathically speak to Kain. This question causes Spoony to realize he's stuck in the battle (until Kappa comes along).

Knight - December 23, 2011 05:49 AM (GMT)
Though that does bring up a frightening possibility. If the shard can rewrite the past, does the Mask have any sort of power to dictate future events?

aturtledoesbite - December 23, 2011 05:55 AM (GMT)
Well, yes. We already knew that. See Magus' confrontation with the Mask. However, to clarify, it can indeed dictate future events, but it cannot necessarily write them. Otherwise, Spoony's plan would have more-than-likely succeeded.

Gaius - December 23, 2011 06:37 AM (GMT)
Aye, Spoony says the fate of all in Videoland -- and Alex -- are known to the Bearer of the Mask, and that entity's chats with Dhaos and Magus support this. Much as there are gaps in the Mask's sight. Though it's conceivable Spoony might have run into issues because the Mask saw it needed to give false/incomplete information for everything to play out correctly. Just a random bit of speculation.

... Huh. And here's another thought better fit for the Crazy Theory thread. While the Bearer of the Mask sees future events, and with great accuracy, there are, as Spoony says, inconsistencies: it can't see the future perfectly. She thinks this is because she lacks the memories the Shard contains. Suppose one with the Shard of Tears is able to rewrite the past,* but imperfectly, needing something the Mask possesses. That something might be foresight: one with the Shard of Tears can rewrite reality, but without a clue of what those revisions will actually do.

* or whatever it's doing. Another possibility is that where Tragedy's Mask contains the Sovereign's ability to think, the Shard of Tears contains the Sovereign's ability to act, and thus contains the greatest measure of her power to rewrite reality. Speculation, no question, but we've never actually seen the Bearer of the Mask do anything, except talk and, maybe, Touch others.

enlong - December 23, 2011 06:46 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Dec 22 2011, 05:32 PM)
P.S. Why exactly do they keep killing Kefka if he's harmless? I mean, instinct's one thing, but you'd think that they would have learned by now.

Yeah, they can kill him inside of 10 seconds, but to the rest of the world, he's still a continent-ripping god who could kill thousands in minutes if he felt like it.

HeroicJay - December 23, 2011 07:14 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Dec 22 2011, 10:03 PM)
Spoony says it when Cecil asks him if he was granted the ability to telepathically speak to Kain. This question causes Spoony to realize he's stuck in the battle (until Kappa comes along).

Come to think of it, this is a situation where a character clearly suffers due to being based on the SNES version of the game - if based on the DS/PSP versions, Edward wouldn't have used the Twin Harp (as he used in the Japanese version of the game, and as he also used in the sequel), but Whisperweed, which would let him communicate with Kain from a distance.

SorataYuy - December 23, 2011 09:48 AM (GMT)
Let's take that thought and expand on it, Gaius.

Just a theory, mind you, but here's a good "maybe" for why the Shard and the Mask are needed to be in conjunction to rewrite things without lots of failures on the part of the writer:

Past and future are very interconnected. If one rewrites the past without any knowledge of the present (the "future", as far as the past that is being re-written is concerned) that is very dependent on that past, then one cannot see the future that will result (although chances are good it'll end up being a bit of a re-run of the original past in the first place. see: Kefka getting beaten twice. Kid-touched there didn't know anything about what lay in Kefka's future, like several level-99 adventurers with the best gear Alex could give them, so of course it ended up being a repeat. Twice.)

So let's, for the sake of this idea, give her the Mask, as well. She gets to see him being beaten repeatedly, wonders why, looks more closely at his conquerors - and realizes they're just too strong for him. So she rewrites all of their pasts so that they never did that stuff, and he can win. Of course, this then turns into a whole new level of tragedy for all concerned unless/until she rewrites it, which is why in this case it's a good thing she doesn't have the mask. And sadly, I can almost foresee some of this being the way the story is headed, unless the Returners there hurry up and explain to her that "mister clown" is a bad man that likes to nuke things from on high.

[So it's a little less of a half-baked thing, the rest of my theory on that issue of past/future and rewriting, which is pretty simple, I think/hope:
Part of the issue with re-writing the past, and why one *needs* to be able to see the future, is so that one can know what future will result when the rewriting is finished. After all, what good will it have done if I say, save my friend Sam from dying in a car accident a couple of years ago, only for her to turn out to start a downward spiral with her life a few months later, that then turns into years of misery for her and all involved? Would probably have been better had I not used the Shard and Mask at all, in such a case.
Or say you save someone from getting mugged, and the money that they would have otherwise lost to the robber, was a vital step in what turned out to paving their way to world domination of a totalitarianism regime in some odd yet interestingly vital way? Might have been better off shoving the guy in front of bus - assuming that doesn't then destroy the lives of all involved, too.
I posit that this is why the Sovereign and her power are so dangerous: it can change things, irrevocably, in a universe (Videoland and all its satellite worlds) where things happen for an iron-clad Reason.]

jaimehlers - December 23, 2011 03:53 PM (GMT)
Re: Kefka's revival, let's not forget that the Shard itself has power. It isn't just a matter of boosting an existing ability, because it's obvious that the girl isn't casting a spell either time she brings Kefka back or when she tries to boost Kefka's powers.

And as for the Mask's ability to see the future, well, knowing what will happen at some point in the future, without being able to see how the past interconnects with the present to make the future, isn't very useful. I believe there's a trope about seeing a future and causing that future despite trying to prevent it.

Also, technically the Returners are bullies who are beating up on Kefka (they are so much more powerful that a single one of them can swat Kefka offhand). The key point that they need to make to the girl is that Kefka is an even worse bully who will beat up on everyone who's weaker than he is.

aturtledoesbite - December 23, 2011 04:10 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (jaimehlers @ Dec 23 2011, 09:53 AM)
The key point that they need to make to the girl is that Kefka is an even worse bully who will beat up on everyone who's weaker than him.

Fixed it for ya.

But as for what this kid is doing... Exactly how is she using the Shard, anyway? Does it just give whatever she says more weight than the laws of logic, nature, physics, and all that? Or is she subconsciously channeling the Shard's power through her words, like most Touched start doing when their text glows?

jaimehlers - December 23, 2011 09:23 PM (GMT)
I can't believe I did that.

Anyway, if this is child-Rydia, remember that she was essentially created by the Shard itself when Bob used it. That is to say, her body could be nothing more than a manifestation of the Shard, with a chunk of Rydia's memories inside. I can easily see that being why she can do such things without even seeming to; she's a way for the Shard to act (but to its own ends), like a djinn who twists wishes.

Gaius - December 23, 2011 11:05 PM (GMT)
Aye, the 'child is a shaped bundle of Sorrow energy' is one that makes sense as a possibility. One could go even further, depending on how one wants to take certain statements.

The Bearer of the Mask: "[Alex] will free the Shard of Tears from its bodily prison in Nexus."

It's a rather specific wording, there. I'd kind of presumed it just meant Puzzle Wizard had captured the girl with the Shard and turned her -- and thus everything on her -- into a Tetris piece. However, it's an interesting image: the Shard of Tears grants Bob's request, producing the girl as we know her by coalescing Sorrow energy into her form -- with the Shard of Tears at her heart. Again, rampant speculation, and I present it as nothing else. ^__^ Still, interesting to think about.

aturtledoesbite - December 23, 2011 11:18 PM (GMT)
Assuming that this is Rydia, then the Shard did not *create* her. It merely removed her past from her body. Since this is Videoland, anything of importance, tangible or not, is given a sprite. The most suitable sprite for Rydia's past would have obviously been Rydia's child form.

Also, from a purely technical viewpoint, exactly what effect does Strago's heart attack have on his status? Is he immediately Swooned? Half HP? Decreased stats?

Gaius - December 24, 2011 12:05 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Dec 23 2011, 11:18 PM)
Assuming that this is Rydia, then the Shard did not *create* her. It merely removed her past from her body. Since this is Videoland, anything of importance, tangible or not, is given a sprite. The most suitable sprite for Rydia's past would have obviously been Rydia's child form.
Again presuming Kid!Rydia, I think you're assuming a little too much about how she came to be.

'The child is a bundle of Sorrow power in sprite form' and 'The child is Rydia's past given sprite form' aren't mutually exclusive. Especially given the nature of the child's creation. I don't think we're actually disagreeing much. It could have been a matter of ripping Rydia's past out of her as a fully formed sprite, it could have been a matter of ripping Rydia's past out of her, and then using it as a template to construct a fully formed sprite. We don't know the mechanics, so there's no reason to get hung up on them. The possibility I was arguing was that her form, however it came about, was run-through with Sorrow energy.

QUOTE
Also, from a purely technical viewpoint, exactly what effect does Strago's heart attack have on his status? Is he immediately Swooned? Half HP? Decreased stats?
Tough to say... One could write it off as a purely narrative thing that keeps Strago from jumping into a fight and makes him a relatively easy cutscene kill. Stat-wise... Well, 'Depression' was an introduced status condition in FF IV. 'Cardiac Arrest' could be one in FF VI.




* Hosted for free by InvisionFree