I have recently been thinking long and hard on a certain topic. This is in itself quite strange as the topic has nothing to do with either sex or perversity. Not too often that happens.

What is the purpose of society? Up until now it has been to increase the chances of survival for its members and generally allow greater comfort than is to be had alone. Luxuries that you could never be expected to make on your own are available left and right. It even provides a safety net for when times are hard.

But what now? In western civilization, the greatest need is not food or anything of the body. It is something the need for something to do.

Even a hundred years ago, almost nobody would have the time to worry about that sort of thing. They were busy working day in and day out staying alive, the majority on farms and a few in brute factory work. By the time you got off, you had about enough energy to drink some booze and go to sleep. The whole process started again in the morning.

Now, things are different. Work hours and pay are regulated and most of us don't actually have to work ourselves to death to stay alive. When we do, it is for self imposed reasons. Paying off college loans or putting your own kids through college. Paying for one luxury or another and never having time to enjoy it. In the old days, nobody expected to advance in the world or even have your kids be much better off than you are. And when something went wrong, you generally died.

Don't get me wrong. I vastly prefer life now to anytime in history. Its just that we almost seem to be trying to make it worse for ourselves. We find a billion more ways to complicate our existance than is necessary and whenever our lot in life improves, we find a billion more.

Perhaps, subconsciously, we can't stand being comfortable. Maybe we need the pain to keep us strong. Where we used to trek across arctic tundra and fight dire wolves for the carrion of freshly killed mamoths, now we brave the early morning traffic jam to do battle with your coworker in hopes of catching your boss's eye and getting promoted.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I think that most of our problems now are not caused by ourselves, but the greed of the people at the top. That and unnessasary fear created by society in general.

Well how is THAT different than how things were 500 years ago?

The people who want power the most are those least fit to wield it. And most willing to change/lie about themselves to fit the role.

If power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely... perhaps that is how things are supposed to be. It must be inbuilt into each of us and isn't something that can be stopped or controlled.

What we need to do is organize the system so that the corruption actually reenforces it, rather than weakening it. Perhaps we can even keep the individuals in line by playing them against each other, making them play the game right for fear of giving ammo to their enemies.

Eh, I dunno. Just thinking out loud.

You know what. Everyone thinks everything is evil. Everything is a conspiracy. Everything is dark and grim, DOOM and gloom......

I look at the people in power and I see... People.

People with their own beliefs, values and whatnot. Because of this other people may agree and disagree with them.... Big Whup.....

I like ruthless bastards... as long as they are also not stupid or emotion driven. The key factor is that they have to be able to make deals instead of saying 'do it or die'. Read up on the Medici family, the group that owned europe.

When you stop believing in absolute goods and absolute evils, and cease to view the world as such...life gets confusing, but at least you can actually be honest with yourself. One of the core guidelines of the world is that every person is a hero. To quote wherever that quote first came from, since it pops up so much,

Every person lives day to day, doing what they feel they should, for their story. Nobody is "evil", as it is commonly known. Every person has their reasons for what they do. Even some of what we call the most "evil" men in history, did it for their own reasons. Not a one of them got up going, "Mmm, what sort of dastardly deeds shall I do today? God, it's good to be evil!"

Conflict is the only real factor determining "good" and "evil". Why, do you ask? Because "good" always wins. Or, more precisely, because the one that wins is always "good". Winners tell the tales and write the history books, and their view becomes the one that people view as accurate. No matter which side prevails in a conflict, you can be certain that "good" will win.

I think how you treat others. A proper individual shows proper respect for his fellow man and/or woman.

Eh, the idea of life without good or evil is a little shaky...nihilism is every bit as silly as absolutism. If a person's actions are truly meaningless, they may as well throw themselves off a cliff and it won't matter. I think that good and evil exist, but the decision of which is which ultimately belongs to the individual. If you honestly think a code set upon you by those around you is wrong, then by following it over of what you believe is right is not a moral action.

People have to make judgments, but each person has to make his own. You learn right from wrong growing up - If you decide to do something that you know is wrong, that's hypocrisy, and that's evil. If you can't understand the difference, you cannot really be held responsible, although those around may then need to do things to you for their protection and that of those around them. An escaped killer with mental deficiencies can't really be held accountable for his doings, but neither can the cops if they are forced to kill him to prevent another murder. If you hospitalize somebody for the money in his wallet, after learning that human life takes precedence over money, that's evil.

As far as I'm concerned, the only true evil you can do is to break your personal code. Agreements with others can sometimes be pre-empted by a higher priority issue, but if a person can't hold to a code of what you feel to be right, what are they worth to themself?

Neutrality is not as difficult as most believe it to be. I've been neutral for some time now. I don't believe in good, nor do I believe in evil. I do enjoy helping people, not for a false claim of goodness or to hide behind "It's the right thing to do!", but because it makes ME feel better inside to do so. I believe in helping people because it makes me feel better. But that doesn't mean helping people is "Good", and not helping them is "Evil". If I'm in a hurry to get somewhere, for example, and I pass a broken down car because I don't have the time or the energy to stop and help them, that isn't me doing an "evil" thing by not helping them, or avoiding doing a "good" thing by not helping them. That's me following what I feel I should do. There's no good or evil about it, one way or the other. Just me, and how I feel.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

-Edmund Burke.

To wit, I disagree.

EDIT: Actually, I misinterpreted your post... nevermind.

But not doing good is perpetrating evil.

This post has been edited by MFD on May 10 2005, 08:08 PM

Is it? How do you define "not doing good"? You aren't out saving puppies and rescuing orphans from burning orphanages right now. Are you perpetrating evil because of it?

Depends... flip a coin.

OK, not doing good. Remember that sequence in Spider-Man 2 when Peter Parker walked passed a person being mugged, and determinedly ate a hot dog instead of following police cars? It was in his power to do good, but he decided that he had enough of that.

Another prime example is the woman who was raped in an alley. All the tenants in the building heard her screams, but each one assumed that it was not their problem, and each one assumed that someone else would help the lady. Again, it was in their power to help, but they didn't, for whatever reason.

I read about it in my gen. psych. text last year, and I am not stupid enough to google it, even if I'd like to know the specifics.

Terra, you take my stance to an extreme, which never leads to a healthy argument. I simply mean that, if it is in your power to do a good deed, and you stand by and do nothing, then it perpetrates an evil.

EDIT: Grammar.

EDIT: Added a sentence.

This post has been edited by MFD on May 10 2005, 09:04 PM

Depends on the reason behind it. There are no guiding constants that rule the world, every "rule" that people claim will always have its exceptions, its "what if"'s, its situations that break the "rule". And a rule cannot exist if it is not followed. This one is no exception.

Petey blames himself for not stopping the burglar. While it is true that he could have stopped the man, it is not his responsibility to be the big hero, no matter how much he feels it is. No one is responsible for the well-being of complete strangers that they don't know, that they've never met. When they act to help, it is because they want to, not because they are forced to. People should not be expected to give what they have earned, be it money, food, time, or effort, when they have worked hard to get that for themselves. When they do, as I stated before, it is because they want to, no matter how well they dress it up. Petey is Spider-Man because he wants to be Spider-Man. He hides behind his uncle's death, but in truth, that is only relevant in the case of the burglar that shot his uncle. Some events, such as the massacre that was Maximum Carnage, he does because he feels he has to, to protect his family. Others, such as preventing Gobby from ripping off a jewelry store way the hell on the other side of the island, for example, have nothing to do with him. He deals with that, not because his family will suffer if he doesn't, not because Uncle Ben will be shot if he doesn't, but because it makes him feel good to help people.

The tenants in your apartment were also not required to drop what they were doing and run down to help her. They were not to be expected to do so. They've worked hard for what time they had, with what possessions they had. They are not evil for wanting to enjoy the fruits of their labors.

I never said that they had to drop what they were doing and rescue her. But they could have EASILY made a 911 call in, like 5 minutes. But no. That was someone else's responsibility, and it never happened.

And Spider-man's entire mythos is built off of his crappy life because he HAS to be Spider-man, because he grew up with May and Ben teaching him that helping others is the RIGHT thing to do. He doesn't want to be Spider-man. What about the Spider-man story arc that Spider-man 2 was partly based off of? "Spider-man No More." He has enough, and gives up helping people, but he soon realizes that he cannot give that up if he wants to live a full life.

They could have. They didn't. Doesn't make them evil. Just makes them apathetic.

His need to be Spider-Man is self-imposed, which brings it back around to him WANTING to be Spider-Man. The world would not end if he stopped being Spidey. The only thing that made him be Spidey again was himself.

It doesn't make them evil, no. I'm sure most of them aren't murdering puppies. Their inaction is evil, though. The apathy is evil. That has been my point from the beginning, and you still fail to grasp it.

Sure, standing by and letting an evil act happen is not nearly as evil as committing the act yourself. Being a lesser evil doesn't make it not an evil, though.

And sure, Spider-man WANTS to be Spider-man. Of course, how could I have missed that. It has nothing to do with his upbringing, or how "with great power comes great responsibility." Nothing to do with Spidey having the responsibility to use his powers as a do-gooder. He just WANTS to do it.

Yes, I do fail, because apathy is not evil. It is not my responsibility to care about every single person I pass, and neither is it yours. No person should be expected to care about a complete and total stranger.

If he did not want to, he would not be. His upbringing, his emotions towards the death of Ben, his feelings on the Power = Responsibility speech he was given, that all donates to why he wants to be Spidey. But the point still stands that he WANTS TO BE SPIDEY. No one is forcing him to be Spidey. Hell, there are many in his life, such as Mary Jane, that want him to not be.

We are the product of our upbringing I guess, then. I feel different. If someone is actually in trouble, I'd like to think that I would help.

And I'm sorry for liking to think that others won't passively let bad things happen.

And as for Spider-man, there is a difference between WANTING to be Spider-man, and seeing it as a responsibility. Spider-man doesn't WANT to be Spidey. He feels that being Spidey is his responsibility. Much the same way that Jesus in the Bible didn't WANT to be crucified, but it was His burden, and He did it to save total strangers.

NOTE: The Bible and Jesus are being used as literary examples. Let's not get into a religious debate. I'm not trying to convert anyone.