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Pages: (7) « First ... 5 6 [7]  ( Go to first unread post )

 Taxes and Budgets., Lets get Fiscal!
Smitty
Posted: Jul 14 2011, 03:14 AM


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You're right time has changed our world for the better and for the worse. We are much bigger and the world is golobally connected but I fail to see how these changes dictate that we need a central bank


and your wrong about the United states being a 3rd world country a hundred years ago
by beginning of the 1st world war we had the largest economy in the world


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Zap Rowsdower
Posted: Jul 14 2011, 09:24 PM


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No, but we were structured like one. In 1900, 41% of the country was farmers or in farm-related occupations; today that figure is less than one percent.

Less farmers means less people can live independently of the economyand more devestation from economic swings up and down, as well as foreign investment and connection meaning that those swings can take the planet's economy down. To keep the natural cycle of an unregulated economy- made more severe by the way the entire planet is tied far closer to the well-being of the economy than they were in centuries past- from ruining the life of everybody that isn't independently wealthy on the planet every 20 years or so, a central regulating authority is necessary.


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"Be polite; write diplomatically; even in a declaration of war one observes the rules of politeness." - Otto von Bismarck
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Smitty
Posted: Jul 15 2011, 02:46 AM


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this central regulation as you call it has been useless in preventing economic devistation.
from the great depression to the 70's oil crisis to Black Monday (1987) up until today's depression.

it has done nothing to prevent these disasters
they are leeches who call themselves gods

we do not need them
but we don't know how to think without them and that is why they continue to exist


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Zap Rowsdower
Posted: Jul 15 2011, 04:19 AM


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Without them, it would be much, much, worse. You're like the guy who sues for a bruised arm caused by being pulled back to prevent being run over. Its the Federal Reserve Bank's job to regulate the money supply, keeping inflation and deflation from spiraling out of control like its postwar Germany. Its the Fed's job to control the interest rates to increase lending, and thus cashflow in the economy, when flow decreases- mitigating slowdown- and increase interest rates when spending is getting too high to sustain. Its the Fed's job to run the FDIC, ensuring that when a bank goes under, it doesn't take all of its customers with it. Without the Fed as we have it today (it may have begun in 1913, but it changed a LOT in the interim), we would be back in 1929 or WORSE, which was, if you'll recall, a liiiitle bit worse than the downturns of the seventies OR the oughts, or even both put together.

Also, I cannot possibly repeat this enough, we aren't on the gold standard anymore, like we were before the Fed. The only restriction on how much money is in circulation is how much the government feels like putting out- and if it puts out too much, currency is devalued, if it puts out too little, there isn't enough to meet needs. There MUST be an independant body, not prey to the pettiness of politics, to control that supply and keep it from going out of control in either direction.

This post has been edited by Zap Rowsdower on Jul 15 2011, 04:58 AM


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"Be polite; write diplomatically; even in a declaration of war one observes the rules of politeness." - Otto von Bismarck
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Smitty
Posted: Jul 15 2011, 07:43 PM


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First of all it wasn't the fed who stopped the great depression
Some would say their mismanagement started it

but what really ended it was the end of ww2 and the whole world needing American goods therefor everyone had a job to produce them

the 70's oil crisis ended when the arab producing countries gave us oil again

black monday was a statical anomoly

today depression is still going on desipte the federal reserve
I've seen them do nothing to help the millions of my generation to get a job

the fdic insuring banks leads to something called 2 big to fail banks
which if and when they fail the whole system comes down

I do agree with you that the system will be hurt and people will panic and do dumb thing if we end the fed
but the system is going to go though some really rough times ahead anyway because of them. When the US defaults on it's dept and has to print trillions of dollars, all of our dollars are going to become worthless. And people will riot and freak out

I am not a man who is suing for a bruised arm caused by being pulled back to prevent being run over. I am a man who is suing for being pushed into traffic


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Zap Rowsdower
Posted: Jul 15 2011, 08:56 PM


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We will only default on our debt if CONGRESS fails us, not the Fed. National debt doesn't work like personal debt; one of the first things Alexander Hamilton did when he started setting up our economy was intentionally creating national debt, to ensure that other countries would have a stake in our continued existence.

And you WANT to become a hobo if your bank does something stupid? Be my guest...

Also, what I'm trying to say is that if not for the Fed, we would have a lot more economic disasters, and WORSE disasters. You're looking at mountain peak islands reaching out of the ocean and saying that the ocean is far too shallow to cover things, all the while ignoring the massive continent that the ocean is covering. You keep saying the Fed is the cause of all of these problems, whereas you admit yourself that Black Monday was a blip and the '70s was a political move- meaning the Fed was a bystander that had nothing to do with anything but try with mixed success to keep the country together, and then get blamed for not being perfect.

The fed may not be doing much for our generation getting jobs, but it IS doing its best to ensure that there are still people TO hire jobs once the economy recovers, mitigating the damage. Just because it isn't a superhero doesn't automatically make it a super-villain in need of slaying. Also, "too big to fail" is as much about jobs, and ensuring that there are as many as possible, as it is about investment, so complaining about not having a job, and then saying that businesses should be let die, is kinda hypocritical. They are "too big" because their presence employs too many people, people who, if the companies DID fail, would ALSO be competing with us for jobs and making our wait EVEN LONGER.

And you still haven't said anything about the whole "control of supply of money is necessary in absence of a gold standard" thing; without the Fed, we would have died to inflation or deflation LONG ago. Get rid of the fed, and we MUST return to the gold standard out of sheer neccesity- there is literally no other option aside from a silver standard- and then we run into a problem of not enough cash for our population's needs.

In conclusion, you keep repeating talking points more in common with emotion and finger-pointing than they do economic principles and study of how the system works. Go leaf through a macroeconomics textbook before you post again here.

This post has been edited by Zap Rowsdower on Jul 15 2011, 09:03 PM


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"Be polite; write diplomatically; even in a declaration of war one observes the rules of politeness." - Otto von Bismarck
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Knight
Posted: Jul 15 2011, 09:51 PM


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Okay, who are you and what have you done with Zap?

... Not that I'm complaining, mind you. >.>
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mordain
Posted: Jul 15 2011, 10:13 PM


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QUOTE (Zap Rowsdower @ Jul 15 2011, 12:56 PM)
And you WANT to become a hobo if your bank does something stupid? Be my guest...

The only bank for me is the Bank of Mattress! It's the only one I can trust!

/tinfoilhat


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Zap Rowsdower
Posted: Jul 15 2011, 10:19 PM


The artist formerly known as Randomlurker


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QUOTE (Knight @ Jul 15 2011, 05:51 PM)
Okay, who are you and what have you done with Zap?

... Not that I'm complaining, mind you. >.>

He's locked in the closet; I'm just a burglar who's been living in his apartment for the past week or so.

I really should be fleeing at some point, but the police haven't come by yet, so eh.


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"Be polite; write diplomatically; even in a declaration of war one observes the rules of politeness." - Otto von Bismarck
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Nifar
Posted: Jul 15 2011, 10:20 PM


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QUOTE (Knight @ Jul 15 2011, 04:51 PM)
Okay, who are you and what have you done with Zap?

... Not that I'm complaining, mind you. >.>

Actually, isn't this sort of discussion Zap's specialty? I know other economic discussions have cropped up before, and he does fairly well.

Also, Smitty, I'd like to request that you take the time to use proper grammar and punctuation before participating in a serious discussion, for your own sake. It's rather hard to take anyone seriously when they seem to have issues with capitalization and proper punctuation.


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Out of Context Quote(s) of the Week: "Please don't stick bacon in my stab wounds."
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TrekTek
Posted: Jul 16 2011, 06:59 AM


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Well I think he has left the forum for good so I don't think that will be an issue.
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Kyongja
Posted: Jul 20 2011, 01:39 AM


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Even though I try to keep up to date with the news I haven't necessarily been able to find one iota of the plan the 6 senators have been proposing for the plan on the federal government's debt. Does anyone even know what the heck this plan that the 6 senators is promoting entails? and I mean indetail. none of the stupid propaganda they tell the public as an explanation that doesn't tell you jack.
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