Free Forums. Reliable service with over 8 years of experience.
InvisionFree - Free Forum Hosting
Welcome to Captain SNES. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Name:   Password:


 

 A few questions about Truthiness
Grandmaster Jogurt
Posted: Sep 30 2009, 03:49 PM


Too few posts for a custom title


Group: Group: Group: Group
Posts: -1,340
Member No.: 2
Joined: 6-August 04



First, how many people here laugh along at the people Colbert is satirising? The people who go by gut instead of facts?

Second, how many of those people hold common sense to be one of the more important things to base things off of?

Third, what's the difference?


--------------------
user posted image user posted image -- Let us all study the Panzer and grow into beautiful, healthy women! --
-- 100+7 --

Arc: Can I ship you and FZ?
Forever Zero: I should never talk while I wank.

Arc: Are your panties still hazardous?

You awake in a 10x10 room.
CHAPTER 2.05 2010 10 12

hyenas, like bears, are dogs
Top
Forever Zero
Posted: Sep 30 2009, 05:11 PM


The REAL internet rage machine


Group: Supermod
Posts: 30,121
Member No.: 4
Joined: 29-August 04



QUOTE (Grandmaster Jogurt @ Sep 30 2009, 11:49 AM)
First, how many people here laugh along at the people Colbert is satirising? The people who go by gut instead of facts?

Yo.
QUOTE
Second, how many of those people hold common sense to be one of the more important things to base things off of?

Yo.
QUOTE
Third, what's the difference?

It depends on your definition of common sense, which you've left exceptionally vague. The textbook definition of Common Sense is, "sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts" implying one is capable of making a proper decision based all the information given combined with pre-existing knowledge.

However in your first sentence you bring up more of a "Gut feeling" definition, which I don't think has a textbook definition, but I've always thought of it as more of a "This is the thing I need to do, regardless of any other facts or information.

Common Sense is "There is a cliff to the left of me. If I jump down it, I will most likely die. I don't think I'll do that.

A Gut Feeling is, "There is a cliff next to me. I don't know why, but I have a powerful urge to jump off it, so I should follow that feeling."

The short version of what I'm saying here is your argument needs clarification.


--------------------
"It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane."
- Philip K. Dick
Top
Alphawolf55
Posted: Sep 30 2009, 05:11 PM


Sage


Group: Members
Posts: 7,442
Member No.: 40
Joined: 10-October 04



Well wouldn't the difference be that common sense often involves an inclusion of facts while going with your gut goes against that?


--------------------

I dare you to look at this and not smile at least a little.
Top
mordain
Posted: Sep 30 2009, 05:19 PM


Codewalker


Group: Moderators
Posts: 40,882
Member No.: 72
Joined: 13-November 04



Gut feelings are usually emotional, or based on beliefs that we have never examined logically. They are not always a bad thing, but they have no real basis in reality.

Common sense is based on some form of logic. "I will, in all likelyhood, die if I jump off this bridge" vs "Momma told me that god would always protect me, so let's jump!".


--------------------
Live and learn - or die and teach by example.
Top
Grandmaster Jogurt
Posted: Oct 1 2009, 12:58 AM


Too few posts for a custom title


Group: Group: Group: Group
Posts: -1,340
Member No.: 2
Joined: 6-August 04



The whole "jump off a cliff" thing, how is it determined that jumping off a cliff is a bad thing? Is it based off of learning about what happens to stuff that does so, or just going by what "makes sense"? If it's the latter, that's gut thinking. If the former, I think there is a definition difference again. I'm running off something similar to this:
QUOTE
Some people (such as the authors of Merriam-Webster Online) use the phrase to refer to beliefs or propositions that in their opinion most people would consider prudent and of sound judgment, without reliance on esoteric knowledge or study or research, but based upon what they see as knowledge held by people "in common". Thus "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience which most people allegedly have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have.

This also works closer to how I tend to see it used. "It's just common sense" doesn't work with simple "sound judgement"; calls for "common sense solutions" would be pointless if it was just that, since I can't think of anyone who even in a strawman caricature wouldn't want sound judgement.

The way I do see it used is "this is the stuff I feel everyone knows". The "feel" part is key there, and I don't think it's that disputable; how many people call it "common sense" when you're researching something or backing it up with evidence? It's common sense not to jump off a cliff, but that's also very intuitive. If your gut is telling you to jump off a cliff, you are either insane or in some very uncommon situation. "Going from the gut" isn't at all dealing with crazy stuff; we're built to do it. It's just a lot less likely to be accurate than going off of sound research and whatnot.

Not to say that common sense and intuition are useless artifacts; they work fairly well in much of personal situations (the closer to small packs of hunter-gatherer plains life, the more it tends to work) and are usually the only choice if you don't have the time or resources to reason or research something out. They just should be seen as subordinate or backup tools, not the go-to choice for everything.


--------------------
user posted image user posted image -- Let us all study the Panzer and grow into beautiful, healthy women! --
-- 100+7 --

Arc: Can I ship you and FZ?
Forever Zero: I should never talk while I wank.

Arc: Are your panties still hazardous?

You awake in a 10x10 room.
CHAPTER 2.05 2010 10 12

hyenas, like bears, are dogs
Top
Iyestorm
Posted: Oct 1 2009, 04:32 AM


Sage


Group: Members
Posts: 8,494
Member No.: 191
Joined: 14-May 05



Jumping off cliffs isn't a bad thing. People do it for fun all the time.

I think a gut feeling is based on the subconscious. I mean, a lot of the time, when one gets gut feelings, it's about another individual, and what one's reaction to them should be, right? It could just be subtle cues from the environment around us and stuff.

Or maybe it's just our latent psi energy. I wish. That would be cool.


--------------------
Dr. Wiley has surrendered. Mega Man has saved the planet from destruction. But will it last!!!

"Think about it, mate: legends! When has a legend ever not been true, huh? HUH?!"

--Marine, Sonic Rush Adventure

"Good Morniii--AGH! I can't do it! I don't wanna be cute! I wanna be a boy!"

--Ouran High School Host Club; Haruhi's English Voice Actor messing around.
Top
Knight
Posted: Oct 1 2009, 03:02 PM


Guru of Magic
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 10,425
Member No.: 1
Joined: 5-August 04



"Common sense" as I've always understood it is the ability to forsee consequences, and how to avoid the obvious bad ones. The "jumping off a cliff" example is a simple realization that 9.8m/s2 is going to give you a world of hurt at the bottom. It's not a feeling of anything. It's just the ability to rapidly assess the facts available to you.
Top
MFD
Posted: Oct 1 2009, 03:12 PM


THIEF!


Group: Demi-mod
Posts: 28,933
Member No.: 7
Joined: 30-September 04



I think GJ is confusing "common sense" with "gut feeling". Or at least talking about people who do.

And yeah, I listen to my gut. But I can disregard it for obvious facts. (For instance, I know intellectually the world is a round ball spinning so fast in an elliptical orbit around the sun, but in my gut I know we're standing still.)

This post has been edited by MFD on Oct 1 2009, 03:12 PM


--------------------

"The eagles who soar through the sky are at rest And the creatures who crawl, run, and creep. I know you're not thirsty. That's bullshit. Stop lying. Lie the fuck down, my darling, and sleep.
- Go the Fuck to Sleep

"Yeah, well. We're building a bomb. You do the opposite of what the warning labels say."
- Burn Notice: The Fall of Sam Axe
Top
Grandmaster Jogurt
Posted: Oct 1 2009, 05:28 PM


Too few posts for a custom title


Group: Group: Group: Group
Posts: -1,340
Member No.: 2
Joined: 6-August 04



Okay, let's try this. When someone says "that person needs more common sense", what are they saying the person needs more of? "Book-smarts" or something else? If someone says "we just need to apply common sense solutions", what are they talking about? Stuff that "everyone just knows" will work, or stuff that "makes sense".

I think there's also some misunderstanding on what even intuition and gut feelings are. They're not voices in your head or even an actual "feeling". At the most basic level, it's stuff you think, decisions you make, and so on, that you make without actually thinking through first. If you ever have an answer or something and you can't explain what lead you to it before you're even there, that's using intuition.

To explore further the topic of common sense, let's look at more examples. "Don't jump off a cliff" is a case where it works fairly solidly. But here's another example. On the issue of how to reduce usage of a certain drug by the public, is there anyone here who'd disagree that it's common sense that measures such as banning the sale and use of the drug and destroying it wherever it's found would lower the usage, right? Well, how is that common sense idea come to? It's based on what makes sense? From information and feeling that comes from within.

And with that, I think the combination of intuition in its purest definition and common sense from this usage together encompass the "go by the gut" process.

Common sense as "forseeing the consequences" is not very accurate. While it does work that way sometimes, I think that's more of an overlap than a convergence. It's common sense to know that if you drive down the road real fast-like and while texting that you're putting yourself at higher risk, and someone who does it will likely be said to lack common sense. On a similar note, though, is it common sense that adding working and effective safety features to a road can make it more dangerous and that removing them can lower crash rates and fatal crash amounts? In both cases, you can easily follow the chain of consequences (if the latter isn't immediately clear, it's because when drivers feel safer, they go faster, and not necessarily to the same degree that they actually ARE safer), but only the former would easily be considered common sense. Why? Because it flows from stuff people can easily "know" and "make sense of" without having to do in-depth exterior examinations of issues.


I'd like to preemptively ask that any tangents on "but I think [x] about drug abuse issues" be split, since that's not what this is about.


--------------------
user posted image user posted image -- Let us all study the Panzer and grow into beautiful, healthy women! --
-- 100+7 --

Arc: Can I ship you and FZ?
Forever Zero: I should never talk while I wank.

Arc: Are your panties still hazardous?

You awake in a 10x10 room.
CHAPTER 2.05 2010 10 12

hyenas, like bears, are dogs
Top
Knight
Posted: Oct 1 2009, 06:00 PM


Guru of Magic
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 10,425
Member No.: 1
Joined: 5-August 04



QUOTE (Grandmaster Jogurt @ Oct 1 2009, 10:28 AM)
Common sense as "forseeing the consequences" is not very accurate. While it does work that way sometimes, I think that's more of an overlap than a convergence. It's common sense to know that if you drive down the road real fast-like and while texting that you're putting yourself at higher risk, and someone who does it will likely be said to lack common sense. On a similar note, though, is it common sense that adding working and effective safety features to a road can make it more dangerous and that removing them can lower crash rates and fatal crash amounts? In both cases, you can easily follow the chain of consequences (if the latter isn't immediately clear, it's because when drivers feel safer, they go faster, and not necessarily to the same degree that they actually ARE safer), but only the former would easily be considered common sense. Why? Because it flows from stuff people can easily "know" and "make sense of" without having to do in-depth exterior examinations of issues.

I don't think there's a contradiction here. It's a matter of complexity. I'd say that part of "common sense" is knowing when a situation is too complex for a quick glance to give you enough information to see what will happen.
Top
« Next Oldest | Serious Discussion | Next Newest »
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you

Topic Options



Hosted for free by InvisionFree* (Terms of Use: Updated 2/10/2010) | Powered by Invision Power Board v1.3 Final © 2003 IPS, Inc.
Page creation time: 0.0999 seconds | Archive