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Pages: (3) 1 [2] 3  ( Go to first unread post )

 #762 Solid Grounding
Calemyr
Posted: Mar 3 2012, 07:12 PM


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QUOTE (jaimehlers @ Mar 3 2012, 06:27 PM)
EDIT--I consider that event to be more of a tipping point.  I suspect he wouldn't have gone for ultimate power if it hadn't happened.

That it might have pushed him to the point that he'd betray his emperor? Sure, I can't find fault with that. But they way he disposed of his boss was brilliant, indirect, and carried out with a sadistic helping of playful mockery. Or a playful helping of sadistic mockery. Either way, the point is that he did it in a way that can only be described as classic Kefka. He hadn't snapped at that point - at least not beyond the snapping he did during his transformation into a magus.

The only problem I see with that is the move he used against the Emperor. That took knowledge, comprehension, maneuvering, and subtlety to pull off, to position himself in just the right place so that he could gain the benefits of the goddesses without his boss understanding those benefits even existed. That took... well, that took so much subtlety that I don't think you can reliably say how long he'd been planning it. And if he didn't even consider it until Celes showed him the color of his blood, then Kefka's a great deal more brilliant than even I give him credit for.

Bottom line, Kefka's like the Joker. It's been said before and I'm saying it now. I don't think the writers themselves could tell you how much of their actions are caused by careful strategy and how much by a raw gift for quick improvisation. I don't think it matters, though, as it just makes both of them all that more fun to watch.

As for Rydia and Spoony, I had arguments ready for that, I just thought I was getting wordy enough as it was.

Rydia: Rydia never really faced her mother's death. She was so traumatized by the experience that willingness to use fire magic was a fairly major plot event, and then it was only drawn out by necessity rather than by emotional growth. I don't remember all of it (IV was a really long game and a lot of the later content was at least slightly incoherent), but I don't remember her ever really facing it. She just did what most RPG heroes do - stopped talking about it and never looked back. Even so, she has proven to be quite intact for a Touched, and seems to have an agenda that's not directly in line with the Sovereign's goals. It also has to be pointed out that she came into direct contact with part of the Sovereign the same way Celes did (and presumably the same part, in fact). You don't walk away from that unTouched, but a strong enough individual may be able to walk away intact.

Spoony: Well, the name says it all, in my opinion. The boy had a bit of depth to him and a little personality on the side, but it was never enough to get past a single oddly worded (yet entirely accurate) outburst by a distraught old man. Even if he'd been a much more complex character, he still would have been easy prey because of how that one remark defined him in our eyes. That said, he still wasn't a very deep character - unless you read the subtext, that is. He was a pitiful joke character for the most part (at least in the SNES version), and the most impressive thing he ever really accomplished was getting out of bed to play a harp. Granted, if you think about it, that's a pretty badass demonstration of grim determination under the circumstances, but you'd have to think about it pretty darn hard to see it as anything more than further proof that he was nothing more than a joke. And again, he does retain more of his identity than others we've seen in any event.

This post has been edited by Calemyr on Mar 3 2012, 07:40 PM
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jaimehlers
Posted: Mar 3 2012, 07:26 PM


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QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Mar 3 2012, 02:06 PM)
Hmm...then what happened with Rydia? She faced her own mother's death and managed to overcome it. Hell, even Spoony managed to get past Anna's death, but then again, he was constantly tormented by Alex.

I don't know that Rydia really faced up to her mother's death. What she faced was her fear of fire, which isn't a minor consideration, but it's not the same as facing her own inner demons.

You have to remember that all of the other characters in FF4 were essentially supporting cast for Cecil. They were basically just along for the ride.


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Starcat5
  Posted: Mar 3 2012, 07:54 PM


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QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Mar 3 2012, 01:06 PM)
Hmm...then what happened with Rydia? She faced her own mother's death and managed to overcome it. Hell, even Spoony managed to get past Anna's death, but then again, he was constantly tormented by Alex.

Rydia lost her childhood memories, remember? They were ripped right out of her. Bringing THAT up is about as relevent as mentioning that Gilbert was actually quite badass once leveled to Lv 99.


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~Aragorn, The Lord of the Rings, 5th Appendix
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aturtledoesbite
Posted: Mar 3 2012, 09:10 PM


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To jaimehlers: There was the line when you meet Edward where Rydia slaps Spoony, saying (paraphrased) "My mom died, too. I'm not crying anymore." So, she did at least acknowledge her mother's death.

To Starcat5: Those memories were ripped out of her by becoming Touched, which is what the memories would presumably prevent. Though, it might have to do something with the fact that the Shard was actually activated.

EDIT: I'd also like to mention that in the SNES version of the game, any character would have been overpowered at level 30 for the time you have Spoony (that is, between Damcyan and Mysidia). You never get him again, so having him at 99 would obviously make him overpowered for the time you can use him.

This post has been edited by aturtledoesbite on Mar 3 2012, 09:12 PM
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Starcat5
Posted: Mar 3 2012, 10:41 PM


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QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Mar 3 2012, 03:10 PM)
To Starcat5: EDIT: I'd also like to mention that in the SNES version of the game, any character would have been overpowered at level 30 for the time you have Spoony (that is, between Damcyan and Mysidia). You never get him again, so having him at 99 would obviously make him overpowered for the time you can use him.

Good point, but I ment the fact that his stats at Lv. 99 on the SNES would have made him a front line fighter on par with the ACTUAL endgame front line fighters. Just as Yang stops gaining HP after a certan level, the programmers desided to make Edward's stats jump like they had seen a spider. Sure, the average player isn't going to notice. That is the whole point, and the tragity that is Spoony. If he had just gone out leveling with Rydia and her summons, than he wouldn't be NEARLY as broken as he is right now, SoS or no.


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"In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! We are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory."
~Aragorn, The Lord of the Rings, 5th Appendix
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Calemyr
Posted: Mar 3 2012, 11:33 PM


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Instead, Alex has made point of telling us he made Cecil run this guy through every time he got revived just so he didn't have to waste XP on a temporary character.
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HeroicJay
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 12:47 AM


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QUOTE (Calemyr @ Mar 3 2012, 04:33 PM)
Instead, Alex has made point of telling us he made Cecil run this guy through every time he got revived just so he didn't have to waste XP on a temporary character.

Well, a combination of that and that he didn't like the character. There's no evidence he did that for the twins, Yang, Cid, Tellah, or (much as it wouldn't matter if he had) Fusoya.

Or, for that matter, Dark Knight Cecil (whose EXP doesn't matter in the end), much as it would have been really hard to get through the Antlion's Cave with a solo Rydia...

This post has been edited by HeroicJay on Mar 4 2012, 12:50 AM
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enlong
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 01:44 AM


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Cecil's condition could also be from the fact that he hasn't reunited with his dark half yet.

Then again, this comic started before The After Years existed, so who knows.
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jaimehlers
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 02:59 AM


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QUOTE (aturtledoesbite @ Mar 3 2012, 04:10 PM)
To jaimehlers: There was the line when you meet Edward where Rydia slaps Spoony, saying (paraphrased) "My mom died, too. I'm not crying anymore." So, she did at least acknowledge her mother's death.

To Starcat5: Those memories were ripped out of her by becoming Touched, which is what the memories would presumably prevent. Though, it might have to do something with the fact that the Shard was actually activated.

The critical point, which I apparently neglected to mention (apologies), is that it makes them resistant to expressions of Sorrow, depending on the degree to which they confronted their inner demons. Cecil actually confronted and defeated his dark side, therefore he has a tremendous resistance to Sorrow, far, far more than any of the other FF4 characters. But that resilience can be overcome by sufficient amounts of Sorrow, which depends on the character and other circumstances. For example, memories almost certainly matter greatly. So, too, is the degree of Sorrow involved; I imagine being in close proximity to the Mask or Shard would go a long way towards overwhelming a character's resilience.


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aturtledoesbite
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 03:06 AM


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Well, it's not necessarily conclusive evidence, but there was a line Palom said when they found the Treasure Room of Destiny. Something like "I'm gonna drink Ethers until I have Fir3 coming outta my butt!" I interpret this to mean he can cast Fir3, which would mean he's at least overleveled compared to average.
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Calemyr
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 03:45 AM


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Alex seems a bit OCD when it comes to leveling characters in general, so the others are not a surprise. They were really useful in their segments of the story. Gilbert was a whiny useless nothing with no skills or attack power worth a darn, and whose only role in battle was to retard the growth of allies that were actually useful. I say this with my feelings about the character set aside, of course. So what I should have said was a "painfully useless and clearly temporary character", a status the others did not share.
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Magil
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 03:55 AM


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I should note that this comic shows Palom's spell list, which only goes up to Bio. This may suggest he was leveled up a bit, but certainly not pushed all that high (it actually seems a bit low compared to what I usually get Palom to).

http://www.captainsnes.com/2001/08/18/018-...rked-this-well/

Plus, in the escape sequence, Palom and Porom were quite squishy, suggesting that Alex didn't push their levels very high.

This post has been edited by Magil on Mar 4 2012, 03:56 AM
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Zap Rowsdower
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 04:15 AM


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Chances are he only grinded the Final Party up to max.

What that says for FFVI, where the Final Party is everybody, we have yet to see for sure.

This post has been edited by Zap Rowsdower on Mar 4 2012, 04:15 AM


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Spriteless Girl
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 04:26 AM


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In FF IV characters that leave the party continue to recieve a share of the experience points, unless you KO them before they quit. This is actually the reason Yang and Kain are the level they are when they rejoin Cecil.

Or maybe Palom said it because it's funny to fart fire.


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enlong
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 08:33 AM


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QUOTE (Spriteless Girl @ Mar 4 2012, 04:26 AM)
In FF IV characters that leave the party continue to recieve a share of the experience points, unless you KO them before they quit. This is actually the reason Yang and Kain are the level they are when they rejoin Cecil.

Or maybe Palom said it because it's funny to fart fire.

So, if Kain gets KO'd during the fight with the Mist Dragon, and you don't revive him before the segment in Mist, you'll have a Level 2 Kain in the Tower of Zot and be totally screwed against Barbariccia?
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jaimehlers
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 03:49 PM


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QUOTE (Calemyr @ Mar 3 2012, 10:45 PM)
Alex seems a bit OCD when it comes to leveling characters in general, so the others are not a surprise. They were really useful in their segments of the story. Gilbert was a whiny useless nothing with no skills or attack power worth a darn, and whose only role in battle was to retard the growth of allies that were actually useful. I say this with my feelings about the character set aside, of course. So what I should have said was a "painfully useless and clearly temporary character", a status the others did not share.

Edward was only useless in FF4 easytype, that is, the original version released as FF2 here. In the original version of the game, he had a Salve ability, which let him heal the party with an item, so if nothing else, he could act as the party's healer. And, of course, later versions made him much more effective.


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Sir Donald
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 05:53 PM


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Well, by these theories, Frog's immunity may not entirely be based on the Masamune, either. Sure he was tortured by Cyrus' death and his own feeling of failure, but he got over that ("I happen to liketh this new form. And it's all thanks to thee, Magus.") and, assuming Alex did all of the sidequests, got absolution from Cyrus' ghost. As Frog dealt with tragedy in his game, so does Sorrow have no hold on him.

This may also mean that Magus, who still
hasn't gotten over his sister, may be more vulnerable to the Sovereign's whims than Lucca.

Tying this back into FF6, Locke received similar absolution from Phoenix!Rachel, which would make him best equipped to oppose the Sovereign. Which means that we don't know who was in control when Locke was X-Zoned. Although, perhaps we can surmise, that Celes wasn't at that point...

Cyan was also purified and Terra did discover some of the definitions of Love, but the rest didn't go through as much conversion. (Yeah, Gau met his father and was happy he's still alive, but still...) (Heck, that could be the reason that these are the first 3 characters on the roster, followed by Shadow. Because those four were changed the most by these events.) We know that Darryl didn't appear to Setzer in apparition one night aboard the Falcon... (like Anna and Rachel...)

And then there's the question of Cid. Did he die (we're assuming so) and if so, did Celes really cope with it? Yes, she attempted suicide and was somehow saved, and she likely would've wasted away if it wasn't for a certain "little trinket", but we don't know how much her later seeing the Twins helped her along.


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aturtledoesbite
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 06:16 PM


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I just have one nit-picky little thing to say. And that is that if Kain had died before triggering the Package, he'd actually be around level 12, not 2.

So yeah, ignore me. biggrin.gif
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HeroicJay
Posted: Mar 4 2012, 10:43 PM


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QUOTE (jaimehlers @ Mar 4 2012, 08:49 AM)
Edward was only useless in FF4 easytype, that is, the original version released as FF2 here. In the original version of the game, he had a Salve ability, which let him heal the party with an item, so if nothing else, he could act as the party's healer.

Uh, well, um, in the original FF4? Like not The After Years or the DS version? Salve took a single Potion - not a Hi-Potion, not an X-Potion, not a Phoenix Down, and not even five Potions, just ONE POTION - and distributed it evenly across your team (meaning it healed each character for less than a Potion normally would).

So, yeah, he was useless then too.
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aturtledoesbite
Posted: Mar 5 2012, 12:30 AM


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To be fair, that's at least as strong as Rydia's party cures at the time.
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