Title: DI dying?
Description: Long live DI.
Commissar Molotov - October 22, 2006 12:45 PM (GMT)
|hu·bris (hybrs) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "hubris" [P] also hy·bris (h-)|
Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance:
This is, in a sense, a pretty difficult post for me to write. But it's one, I think, that is neccessary for DI as a whole.
I think most of us would agree that DI is rather different from other 40k forums. The average DIer is different, I think, to the average poster on some other boards. And what, I think, seperates DI from other forums is the sense of community that surrounds the board. I've made very deep friendships from DI. And that's something priceless.
But the thought that can't escape me at the moment is that, when I started DI three-and-a-bit years ago, it was something rather different to what it is now.
DI has become, for many people, an obligation. Work. Effort. That's nothing I wanted. I wanted it to be fun. So many posters have burnt out, been tired out, lost interest. Influential posters, and my friends, have left the board. I'm also more than aware that I've gathered a bit of (deserved) reputation as a forum nazi. The self-appointed moral guardian of Abraxis. It puts people off from contributing. It damages the board to a degree. Abraxis is causing a headache for a lot of people.
And I'm not entirely sure that Abraxis is a good thing for the board anymore. I'm not sure that my policies and actions at the moment are a good thing for the board.
I was convinced that if we could excessively detail Abraxis all our problems would be solved and that DI would pass into some golden age. I was, perhaps, wrong. Drakkar and I have been dicussing a possible action to try to reverse some of these changes. To take the board back to its' original roots. To make DI a bit more fun and creative to people. The action is, perhaps a little drastic, and is somewhat akin to pruning back a plant aggressively to ensure it flowers beautifully later in the year. Some of the actions might seem drastic, but it could well be for the benefit of the board.
Our proposal is to scrap Abraxis.
Drastic? I'm sure some of you might be a bit vocal in your opposition here. At least disappointed that the work of three and a half years would, apparently, be going down the drain. But I'm not sure it was that bad. We always knew that Abraxis wouldn't keep the board going forever. Eventually there was going to have to be a resolution to the storyline, and we were going to move on. Can you imagine a DI in fifteen years' time still focusing on Skalansburg, Mitabrev, Federax? Perhaps the board would still be there, but I doubt the posters would. I remember back in the early days of DI we discussed that after the Chaos forces were 'finished' an Ork Waaaagh! was going to crash through Abraxis. Just to ensure the status quo could never really be reached.
So the idea of leaving Abraxis behind isn't a new one. Abraxis isn't DI, and DI isn't Abraxis. Some of our most successful roleplays haven't even taken place in Abraxis. As to the effort of several years being wasted - I'm not so sure that's true. What we've created in the past three years is the most important thing of all - strong friendships and links, a community that works and enjoys a project. Creatively writing together. I would suggest that the community would continue no matter what the project. In many ways, the community could be enhanced by a new project.
I think that it's important that we have an over-arching storyline. It's what helps to seperate us from other 40k roleplaying forums. But by creating a new storyline, a new basis for our games, it does several things.
It removes me from my high horse. A new sector wouldn't be as 'precious' to me. I wouldn't be the single almighty power of authority, because I'd know just as much as you guys.
It makes the board more egalitarian. Everyone can discuss the foundation of a new sector. What they'd like to see. What enemies they'd want. What forces they'd like to be involved. And so on. We can institute the reforms people were suggesting - 'councils' and the like. It makes it more enjoyable and freer for people. Removes a lot of the obstacles to getting involved they had. We can do things right, right from the start. We can document whatever people wnat. Have a history, have a storyline. Make the new storyline what Abraxis could've - should've been.
Abraxis has grown to such titanic proportions that it's effectively a sector-creation project, like Anargo or Sagrado. It perhaps grew so large, so quickly, that it was beyond the scope of what we were looking for as roleplays - the ordinary, basic human interactions. Abraxis can always continue on DI as a sector creation project, and perhaps it can be revisited in the future. But I'm not sure it's best for the board as a while right now, whilst a new project could interest new(er) posters right from the start.
I'd really like your point of view on this proposal. DI has always aimed to be a democratic board. Without posters there's no point. I don't want to see DI die.
BeRzErKeR - October 22, 2006 12:58 PM (GMT)
I really don't want to agreee with you. I'm new to the board, but I've already kind of adopted Abraxis as my home.
But, I do agree. In the couple of months I've been here, I've seen how Abraxis is stagnating, and I've seen two forum members, two respected forum members, leave for exactly thhe reasons you specified.
However, I do think we should make some effort to wrap Abraxis up first. One SRP, or a collabrative bit of writing that finishes off the story. . . and then we can put it away.
Commissar Molotov - October 22, 2006 01:09 PM (GMT)
There's absolutely no way to finish Abraxis in 'one SRP'. It would be ridiculous to try. I'm also not planning on 'finishing' Abraxis, as I still plan to work on it - and those who want to are welcome to. The fact remains that Abraxis perhaps isn't good for the forum as it is now.
It would, I think, be far better to look to the future rather than stagnating in the past.
The other alternative I was considering was to delete DI entirely, but I'm loath to do that.
=][=Nine Breaker=][= - October 22, 2006 02:33 PM (GMT)
I hate to say it but scrapping Abraxis as we know it would be a good choice. Its way too big as it is now for all the reasons you mentioned. If we were to take it down to a Abraxis being just a single system, then we could probaly go from there. And itd be almost as easy as selecting planets we like and throwing them in. Hell we could even go down in scale to the point where Abraxis is a single planet in a state of total war.
Now I do know that I really haven't been around much in the last few weeks. And I really think I need to step back from RPing for awhile. Its taking up way too much time that I need for other things. However, I'm not leaving DI. I'll happily help out with re-organizing the board and help make it into something more "user friendly" or whatever.
Commissar Molotov - October 22, 2006 03:28 PM (GMT)
I'm not talking about turning 'Abraxis' into a system. I'm not talking about turning 'Abraxis' into a planet. Abraxis is a sector and will stay a sector, but will no longer be the focus of DI's games.* I'm talking about creating a new storyline entirely. A system may be enough for us. It entirely depends. But I think we need to re-focus DI on what it's meant to be about - character interaction, good roleplays, and fun.
Trying to reinstate the rock-solid community that made DI what it is would also be extremely desirable.
*On an unrelated note - sector creation projects aren't inherently wrong and can be entirely fulfilling and successful - see the Anargo Sector Project. It just, however, became too much of a focus of DI, when it shouldn't have.
Captain Seato - October 22, 2006 03:45 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Commissar Molotov @ Oct 22 2006, 11:28 AM)|
| I think we need to re-focus DI on what it's meant to be about - character interaction, good roleplays, and fun. |
Trying to reinstate the rock-solid community that made DI what it is would also be extremely desirable.
I would love nothing more than to be able to continue GtG and revamp SSOTR. It's not that I don't have the inclination, I just no longer have the time. However, I shall return!
...I just don't know when. :unsure:
Avenger2099 - October 22, 2006 04:02 PM (GMT)
I haven't been here long enough to truely have an opinion, so... if this is what you think best then do it.
Commissar Molotov - October 22, 2006 04:31 PM (GMT)
Avenger - if this new setting becomes a reality, it's posters like you who'd be able to truly make a difference. DI's always attempted to be an egalitarian board, where posters who've been here a day have a say alongside posters who've been here three years. Please, speak up. You're obviously here because you want to be - at the end of the day, forums are a fun choice. So, if DI means something to you, please just give an opinion.
Sanol - October 22, 2006 04:45 PM (GMT)
Well, i can't say i wasn't expecting this to pop up soonish..... Nevertheless, I regret it. I have been on the board now for about a year and I still think it is by far the best RP site i have seen.
All the point you have stated are true, it would be a shame to remove Abraxis from DI, and might be a bit drastic. However, maybe it is better to focus on a single Sub-Sector, not as large as entire sector, nevertheless, a possibility to have a lot of planets.
Abael - October 22, 2006 05:56 PM (GMT)
I'm not entirely new here, but I've not taken part in any sort of Abraxis-important RPs. However, I think that removing Abraxis from DI entirely would be a bad move.
I think that it should be the RP creator's choice of whether the RP takes place in Abraxis. However, it should be stressed that Abraxis isn't the main focus of DI; that the roleplays are. So we would have some Abraxis-important roleplays, such as GtG, as well as stand-alone roleplays.
Drakkar Windrider - October 22, 2006 06:12 PM (GMT)
Abael, we already do that. Notice the "Other Roleplays" thread.
That said, I think starting from scratch would make it a thousand times easier to start RPs and carry them out to the end. Starting from scratch, we would be able to reorganize everything more efficiently, and have more wide-spread information for potential GMs to decide on running an RP, rather than have our RPs need weeks to start because the info is unavailable or has to be discussed (such as battles going on, planet topography, etc...).
That said, I don't remember saying we would be CANCELLING or ERASING everything we have done until now. Personally, I advocate for keeping as many planets as we can intact, then work our way from there, creating systems and putting those planets in them, as well as some new.
That said, a plan I explained to Mol was about system creation. My idea was letting each member of DI who wanted to create "his own system". The planets, and the history of that system in Abraxis. Of course, we would set down some rules and guidelines (the first are mandatory, the second aren't) for planet creation, and you guys could work within those limits to create your own original planets, regiments, etc...
Dark Chaplain - October 22, 2006 07:24 PM (GMT)
'Stand fast brothers!!!'
DI will never die!!! not as long as i can still type adn the site is still up. (i'll have conversations with my self if need be!!!)
As for its future of Abraxis, i agree that leaving abraxis may be a good idea for organisational purposes and for the thrill/adventure of a new environment.
As others have said i believe that simply wrapping up Abraxis would be a sin against the Emperor (and it would mean no more GtG).
The question gentlepersons is where do we go? i think it may be fun to link the abraxis sector with the new system/planet, perhaps by means of an RP of some sort?
(if you need help creating a new system, im sure i can awake Brother Ancient Silent Psycho, me and him creat several new systems for our gaming)
ElvenSlurpee - October 22, 2006 09:07 PM (GMT)
I'm all for moving on from Abraxis. I've never really connected it with it as a sector anyways, it's always just been an subliminally known fact. I hardly know of its backstory or half of its planets.
Something new would be nice.
JenBurdoo - October 22, 2006 11:28 PM (GMT)
I have to admit that Abraxis is a big ... hassle, to keep straight. It appears (to my admittedly inexperienced eye) to have gotten a bit out of control, and I have nothing but respect and admiration for the GMs and players, particularly Medic and Molotov, who make it successful.
Unfortunately, I'm not one of those with the inclination, or, more importantly, the time to help. While SRPs can work well individually, I think several running at once PLUS a bunch of standard RPs all in the same setting may be overdoing it. As has been pointed out, we're not in the business of sector creation.
Every RP needs a certain amount of backstory, but who uses all of it? Think of the background books and settings for pnp games like Dungeons and Dragons. Who buys all of them, and once bought, uses everything?
Especially if we want to keep new players, we don't want to overwhelm people with information. Not only do we have characters to keep straight, but units and planets, all slotting in somewhere.
That said, I am still thinking about TGWS, which under the circumstances may or may not be set in Abraxis. One of the reasons it hasn't gone forward is that I personally can't visualize the sector too well... but if people are willing to play and it will help keep the board running, I'm willing to try. In Abraxis or out.
I know I haven't been around much, and in some cases I've left games hanging. I don't intend that to happen again.
Commissar Molotov - October 24, 2006 10:59 AM (GMT)
Alright, so most people seem in favour of the suggestion. The question is - what next? I want this to be an egalitarian, democratic creation. I'm not going to arbitrarily take control. So, I'm open to your suggestions, thoughts, theories and ideas. The more you contribute, the more DI will be like you want. The better DI will be.
Brother-Librarian Akritedes - October 24, 2006 02:29 PM (GMT)
Allowing more non-Abraxian roleplays is probably good. That should promote more activity. I'll certainly miss some of the better Abraxian games though.
To be completely honest, I'd like to see a return to what made DI great a year ago. That may be more of a "Good old days" syndrome then I'd like to think I'm capable of, but that's when we were at our peak, it seems. We had people coming and staying, a good old crew (most of whom are now gone, which may be the chief cause of our ailment :(), and a variety of engaging games. Do or Die was one of the better ways to jump in and learn (plus just fun to boot), and before that we had other things.
BeRzErKeR - October 24, 2006 06:43 PM (GMT)
An ongoing roleplay people can just jump into would be excellent.
If we build something else, I would favor an entirely new situation. For instance, a world/system/sector near an Ork empire, and constantly threatened by them. Or one on the Eastern Fringe, interacting with the Tau. Perhaps a sector built around an Imperial Navy base, or one that includes a Space Marine homeworld, or an important Inquisition stronghold.
I don't know how Abraxis was started, but I would favor starting small for this hypthetical new sector/system. Get a continent, detail conditions, who lives there, any fighting going on, etc. Then do the rest of the planet. Then a nearby planet, then the rest of the system, then the subsector, and then we start on other subsectors.
I also agree with Drakkar in that we should allow posters who volunteer to create their own systems or planets to do so. That will ensure plenty of cool things crop up in the new storyline.
Durndal - October 25, 2006 03:56 AM (GMT)
I'm still here guys, just not up for saying much. Whatever you decide is fine with me.
Captain Lithonius - October 25, 2006 04:14 AM (GMT)
I didn't dislike Abraxis, in fact all my favourite games were part of it. My disagreements were organizational rather than with the sector or any of the fluff that went with it.
But that aside, personally I think scrapping Abraxis is a horrible, horrible idea, because it means all that was will fade away. Gensal and Solar and Brakea and Mitabrev would be lost to the ages, which would be a sad day for any old hands left (and yes Ak, you count as an old hand now :)).
Drakkar Windrider - October 25, 2006 10:21 AM (GMT)
Yeah, I'm against "scrapping" the planets we already have or are working on. We only need to put them in a sensible place.
So, what does everybody think about each person creating their own system/planet within a ruleset? I think that would inspire some interesting concepts (I've been thinking of doing some Greelian/Salmanquian relations as of late).
Before that, in importance, is deciding what enemies Abraxis will deal with. Traitors are a given. How about Orks? Tau might be a bit unadvisable because they are relatively unknown to us. But how about small groups of Eldar/Dark Eldar? Of course, they would need a specific goal, but that can be discussed or planned for easily by the old hands.
Also, there is the possibility of Tyranids. I sure would be interested in tying Godzilla 40.000 to Abraxis... :D
Fast jump-in games sound good too, but I think that in that instance we HAVE to be more open-minded. Not just Guardsmen, or just Storm Troopers. I still think that idea of war in a Cadian Kasr with different characters from different organizations is interesting. Also, we could combine that with the Arena of Death. If we have a traitor side, and a loyalist side, we can have two players decide they want to fight each other, one on one or by groups. Then we create a small map apart from the main game, and have them fight with the usual WH40K stats, only with more wounds. I think that would be interesting, and would bring in the beloved playerVSplayer action.
Commissar Molotov - October 25, 2006 11:26 AM (GMT)
I'm not talking about scrapping Abraxis. I still intend to work on it. Other people who wish to can also. But DI needs a new lease of life, and a new setting would seem to do that.
Berzerker, I think that starting with a continent and working outwards would perhaps be counter-productive. Perhaps if we were to hypothesise a setting. For example, a beleaguered Imperial sector near Tau space. Then we could discuss it further and from that, people could discuss the games that they want.
Sanol - October 25, 2006 06:22 PM (GMT)
Well, maybe a sector that is being annexed by the Tau Empire, and at the same time have to struggle with internal problems in the form of a Chaos Cult.
Avenger2099 - October 25, 2006 06:40 PM (GMT)
Hey! We could go like the newest Dawn of War and have a planet with the Necron waking up while the Tau attack to take back the planet, and the Eldar show up to take out the Necron, and a Space Marine chapter shows up to defend some holy relics... which are so holy that they have to kill the Imperial Gaurd, who are of course there because of the Tau... oh and an Orc WAAAGH! lands because.... ... it does. ><
BeRzErKeR - October 25, 2006 06:51 PM (GMT)
. . .And then a Tyranid splinter fleet lands, being pursued by an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with a band of Deathwatch, and then Abbadon's seventh son attacks the Space Marines to steal their holy relics while the Gray Knights attack him. . .
Drakkar Windrider - October 25, 2006 07:22 PM (GMT)
You guys seem big on Tau...
Ok, first things first. I remember saying in our guide that ours was not a war to end all wars like the Black Crusades are, and I intend to hold by that word. So no, not all races should appear.
Personally... I would suggest the following storyline:
A Tau expedition reaches Abraxis to annex it to their empire. To do so, they rely upon humans betraying the Imperium. Thus, a civil war starts as the loyalists aided by "foreign" forces march in to help, while the Tau fight them together with their human allies until reinforcements can come to lend them help (maybe the Tau are pressuring the Imperium, or viceversa).
Meanwhile, Eldar groups sneak around in the sub-sector for unknown reasons. They might be looking for something, or simply trying to stop one of the groups from having complete control over Abraxis.
Meanwhile, in this war, some of the rebels turn to Chaos, or Chaos cults rise to power in the wake of this war.
BeRzErKeR - October 25, 2006 08:35 PM (GMT)
But where are the Orks? EVERY warzone has to have Orks! :P
JenBurdoo - October 25, 2006 08:54 PM (GMT)
I'm intending to run To Glory We Steer fairly soon, and I'd like to throw orks in there somewhere. Whether it's part of a "big story" or not, though, doesn't really matter at this point.
Why don't we perhaps list the games we'd like to see and then fit THOSE together? An Imperial sector on the border of Ork and human space, for example.
Avenger2099 - October 25, 2006 09:21 PM (GMT)
Just to make sure you guys understood, I was completely being sarcastic, I hated the new DoWs storyline with a passion, it's just an exscuse to get every possible race ever fighting.
Personally I could care less about the Tau... although I hated fighting them in TT... 72" ... grrrr.
Captain Lithonius - October 26, 2006 12:56 AM (GMT)
I don't think you need any of that stuff. All you need is some games that do not die within a week of starting, and that don't trickle away to nothing after that. The problem there is that I don't think there are enough GMs left to do that. And whilst a lot of people might step up to the plate full of well meanting promises to arrest the slide, if their heart isn't truly in it and they aren't willing to or don't have the time to spend the games will die anyway despite their best intentions.
JenBurdoo - October 26, 2006 02:46 AM (GMT)
I agree with Lith. Best thing (assuming it's possible) is just to play. Find a game, find players and a GM, and just go with it. And keep it running.
Captain Seato - October 26, 2006 03:49 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (JenBurdoo @ Oct 25 2006, 10:46 PM)|
| And keep it running. |
Yes, although 1,772 replies and 119 pages is a bit much.
Drakkar Windrider - October 26, 2006 07:17 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Captain Seato @ Oct 26 2006, 03:49 AM)|
|QUOTE (JenBurdoo @ Oct 25 2006, 10:46 PM)|
| And keep it running. |
Yes, although 1,772 replies and 119 pages is a bit much.
Arturia has to tell Sands about Reventnik's death! Don't even think of abandoning now!
Captain Seato - October 26, 2006 08:29 AM (GMT)
Ah, yes. And Lupini has to see his lady love one last time, too.
Commissar Molotov - October 26, 2006 12:50 PM (GMT)
The way Abraxis was originally created perhaps wasn't the best. It certainly could've done with a far more secure foundation. Some of these things will be rectified as we work at it. But whilst I'm suggesting that we put Abraxis to the background, we can still run games set in Abraxis. Just that Abraxis probably shouldn't be our primary focus for the time being. It's not in my interests to just delete Abraxis. The things I suggest aren't for fun, but out of a desire to try to do what'll stimulate DI, however radical.
One argument is that we don't have many players at the moment. Perhaps we should concentrate on one or two (a few, at least. I'm not talking exact specifics here) games and really work hard on making them a success? By spreading too far, we risk diluting the quality, and we're perhaps at a stage when we should be trying our best to do the opposite.
Jen's Imperial Navy game, for example, could do a good job of detailing a certain degree of the sector, from which we could expand.
On one further note regarding Abraxis - It's pretty much on the opposite side of the galaxy from the Tau Empire - an Empire that hasn't gained warp technology. One thing about the Medusa V campaign that infuriated many people was how GW shoe-horned every race onto one planet. Something Berzerker was intimating, I think. Part of the reason I was suggesting a new storyline was precisely so that we can have a new lease of life, and perhaps interact with some races that might not fit into Abraxis perfectly.
listy the treadhead - October 26, 2006 01:16 PM (GMT)
Well We got Tau, Tyranids, Humans and a few orks all running around in the D'reg system :D
As well as feral Slaan, and Necrons... but Molly wouldn't let me include them.
I saw that area as more of a frontier area than most with the imperial hold much looser. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch of the imagination to include Eldar.
Drakkar Windrider - October 26, 2006 09:05 PM (GMT)
Hey guys... how about we tell GW's alien races to screw off and get a new job?
Let's create our own alien race! Ok, so we are already creating the aliens originally inhabiting Abraxis. We could expand their role to that of a fully-fledged race with war capabilities to resist the Imperium. Or we could create a completely new one! We could hold a kind of contest about it, too. The best race gets chosen! Or we can pool into it all together.
Hmmm... I'm getting ideas for a Warp-mastering race capable of firing ammunition that would disappear a certain distance from the barrel, and appear inside the target/a distance away from the shooter... mmmmmhhh, crunchy center... ^^
BeRzErKeR - October 27, 2006 01:16 AM (GMT)
The only problem is, such a weapon would be horrendously powerful. I mean, consider. The ammunition disappears, and reappears inside the target. This means that for a moment, the shot and the target are occupying the same space.
This is impossible. To quote David Weber on this very issue, "People who commit impossibilies tend to come to very bad ends."
I would theorize that two objects occupying the same space would commit either mass fission or mass fusion, one of the two. Either way, you get the effect of a couple thousand low-yield nuclear bombs all going off at once within a few centimeters of each other.
I would suggest such things be a massive, power-hungry shipboard weapon. After all, some ships are big enough to survive that kind of thing.
Hey, what about a purpose built ship? A fairly small ship, say a light cruiser, literally built around a warp-missile launcher. That gives it heavy firepower, but makes it really vulnerable to damage. Hammer-in-an-eggshell concept.
Captain Lithonius - October 27, 2006 03:51 AM (GMT)
Drakkar Windrider - October 27, 2006 06:55 AM (GMT)
I don't know where you came out with that nuclear fission, but this is science fiction and therefore impossible things ARE possible. Also, Lith, creating a new alien race for Abraxis would be very interesting, and not off-topic (they do deserve their own topic, though, not cluttering this "ideas" thread).
Commenting on the need to "focus" our efforts on fewer RPs, I agree. But what RPs? Not everybody has the same tastes as... well, everybody else. We would need to find unifying RPs that everybody likes or at least sees potential in.
(And I still want to play with the sisters in Sticks and Stones)
Sanol - October 27, 2006 07:31 AM (GMT)
maybe somebody can recreate something like Do or Die?