This thread is for questions about something you might have read that you have never seen before in the Bible as a result of your reading.

Shiloh, this comes from a thread over at WB that I've been following.

Where God told Moses he was going to destroy Israel, and Moses talked him out of it, there are other instances also, like Abraham and Sodom and Gomorrah. But I would like to kinda add to this (like this isn't enough by itself) The Bible talks about God hardening peoples hearts, like he did Pharaoh's. How does all of this work with, what the Bible says (God never changes, and knows everything) or in the 2nd case, doesn't that take away free will?

I will tackle that question tonight!!

appemote
Thanks Shiloh!

:)

He forgot me............................ :(

impossible ...you just have different clocks huggyem huggyem

well...............he didn't really say he was going to post his answer, just that he was going to tackle it. ::nid::

Well, if you're going to be technical about it! :P

Well first of all, Moses didn't really talk God out of anything. God had no intention of destroying Israel. He was just testing Moses.

As for Pharoah. God did not directly harden Pharoah's heart. Rather, Pharoah hardened his own heart and God gave Him over to it.

I use this analogy. If you take a block of clay and a block of wax and put them out in the hot sun, the sun hardens the clay and melts the wax. It is the properties in each that determine how they respond to the heat of the sun. The sun does not directly purpose to cause the clay to harden or the wax to melt.

Pharoah had the freedom and the opportunity to obey God. His response to God, determined God's course of action, all of which God foreknew would occur.

Does that answer your question?

Sorry for the late reply.

Hmmm . . .

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

Great analogy Shiloh, and an easy way to help people understand it. But (yes of course there is one) what about in the NT, where Paul? says that God doesn't test people? I'm trying to figure how all of this fits together, and my questions aren't because I disagree, because I don't really, but because I need to have an answer for myself and anybody else that ask me.

Well, its in James where it says that God does not tempt anyone.

God will test us, but He will never tempt us to do evil.

:P smarty, I knew I should have looked up what I was talking about and made sure before I typed it.

Makes sense! <<tmbup>>

You up for some more questions????

Go for it!! :D

Why does God in the OT, seem so much different than in the NT? Not trying to start anything, its just always a question thats bugged me. As I've grown older the difference, so to speak doesn't seem to be as wide, but as a child it was like 2 different people to me and I still have a hard time with it sometimes.

He really isn't any different at all. It's all a matter of perception.

I think one the biggest mistakes we made with how arranged the Bible is by dividing it up into OT and NT.

It creates a false perception about God and about the Scriptures thesmelves.

What I mean is that there is an unspoken assumption by many Christians that in the OT, God was all about Judgment and that the sacrifices were how peolpe God saved and that when Jesus came, he provided a "new" means of salvation.

In addition to that the OT bears a stigma in Christianity as bascially being a failed system. Suddenly the NT is "plan B." The OT was not a failed system. It did exactly what God designed it to do.

The truth is that God was all about grace and mercy in the OT. However, much of Christianity has interpreted God's justice in the OT through the filter of the Church's own animosity for the Jewish people. Keep in mind that I am speaking in a general sense and am not indicting or accusing all Christians, but what I am saying is true in a general sense, nonetheless.

People point to the judgments of God in the OT which seem to protray God as an angry vengeful God as evidence that He is radically different than the God of the NT. Yet, what they fail to see is how long God pleaded and implored His people to repent. That is why He sent the prophets: To get the people to repent so that He would not have to judge.

God's judgements were not done out of revenge or some sadistic desire to reek havoc. They were done out of a broken heart, by a God who simply could not compromise His holiness. He didn't want to pour out judgment, but His people's stubbornness and rebelliousnes left Him with no choice.

Even when Jesus prophesied judgment it was not out of vengence:


O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
(Matthew 23:37-38)

Can't you hear the heartbreak and the sorrow in His voice? Can't you imagine the tears streaming down His face, as He speaks to Jerusalem as a rejected lover? If you have ever professed your love to someone only to have it rejected, you might know to a degree the sadness Jesus must have felt.

God gave the people of Noah's day 120 years to repent. He gave Israel/Judah generations to repent before the exiles into Assyria and Babylon.

Even today, Jesus' 2nd coming is delayed only because of the fact that He is not willing that any shold perish but that all should come to repentance. While the world mocks us as we wait for what they see as a fairytale, and they see his delay as evidence that we are hoping in vain, it is His delay that is an act of mercy for their sakes.

In the OT, people were saved just like we are today, by grace through faith. the only difference is that their faith was in the Messiah to come and our faith is in the Messiah who has come. Both OT and NT believers put their faith in the same Messiah, the only difference was their vantage point.

The book of Revelation bears out that God is still just as intolerant of sin and wickedness as He ever was. It is just that by the time we get to Revelation, His patience has been exhausted by man's blind, stubborn, rebellion.

huggyem Shiloh, you need to be a Preacher! huggyem

appemote appemote appemote appemote huggyem huggyem

Or a Bible teacher.

<poke>>

Thank you so much, Shiloh! God has certainly gifted you with a wonderful way of opening His word! huggyem

Come on Peeps, lets give Shiloh's brain a work out, next question somebody!

Everytime someone uses the word "peeps" I keep thinking of those sugar-coated marshmallow treats they put out every Easter that are shaped like baby chickens.

They're called "Marshmellow Peeps." My mother go nuts about those she needs to cut down on her marshmellow consumption.

I LOVE Peeps! And I love you dearly Shiloh, you are amazing! huggyem

<<nee>> <<nee>> <<nee>> mothers are allowed as many marshmarllows as they can eat fypan fypan fypan fypan

::frsnojo::

And they make 'em shaped like bunnies, too! But they're not just for easter anymore. They're making them for more holidays now.

I am just a straight chocolate guy myself. Not a fan of marshmellows to be honest. I don't like most candy except for chocolate and chocolate based candy like snickers and Reeces.

Oh, and Peanut Butter Twix are of the devil! I got hooked on them once and it took a long time to get away from them.

::frsnojo:: I like three musketeers

Candy is wonderful, all kinds of candy...............

<<tmbup>> :D

We have gone from serious Biblical issues to candy... Boy, you can tell we are from Worthy!!! :P

Well, I can't think of any good questions right now, as soon as I do (or somebody else does) we'll be back on track! huggyem

That's cool. I wasn't complaining or anything just making a humorous note of how easily we move from one topic to another one that is totally different!

huggyem I know huggyem

::frsnojo::

It's like what they say about pickles. :)

:<what>: do tell! :<what>:

:huh: well... um... pickles, they um... used to be cucumbers until they were pickled to become pickles, and then sometimes people eat them by themselves, but sometimes they put them on other things (but not on waffles), like salads or hamburgers or even hotdogs, but when they put them on hotdogs they call them relish, and recently it seems they've even started coluring the pickles with koolaid, and then sometimes the pickles are sweet while other times they're sour. It's all very confusing, but then I don't really like cucumbers and take them off of salads when they are put in the salad by others preparing the salad, but then the salad still has that cucumber taste to it even when the cucumbers have been removed. I do like that Larry Cucumber though. He's kinda funny. But he always insists that he is not a pickle. :)

(and notice how I started with a huh smilie, but ended with a smilie smilie. I feel much better about it now that we've discussed it more.)

:huh: well, I'm glad you got all of that off your chest :huh:



*Notice how I started confused and ended up that way as well?*

and... and... God doesn't change his mind and he didn't make pickles but he made cucumbers, but He still let's us pickle stuff, even though he planned for pickles to be made and used to his glory. :huh: :)