One of the older grudges against our unstable rule is of course the fact that we can't combo charge skelletons into anything. We would like to do so in order to outnumber the opponent (take away steadfast) and bring some static CR. we can't, because skellies die so easily that they will generate negative CR, speeding up the crumbling of the other unit (typically a sphinx). this could be mitigated by putting the skellies in the flanks, but hey, how long will it take before they get there, right?

So this should be a plan to work around that. The plan is to shamelessly exploit the charge situation as much as we can. I haven't thought it out in great detail, so think with me, what are we missing?

because skellies are too slow to flank, we are looking to make a dual, FRONTAL attack work.

to do this, we want the skellies touching the combat with as few models as possible of course, so they provide their static advantages without receiving much attacks.


Try one:
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rule for multiple charges:
Several units declare a charge on one unit -> roll charge distances at the same time.
If both succed, you should try to equalize the nr of models touching the enemy, but your primary goal is to maximaize it.


Ok, this won't work out, most skellies will be in base contact after a dual charge, and will subsequently ruin the plan.


Try two:
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What if we charge with the sphinx the first turn, and come after him with the skellies the second turn? that, the sphinx should survive.

this time, we charge the sphinx so that when the skellies take their place next to him next turn, only a little room is left for them. as far as I can see, there are no game mechanics that will shift the sphinx to the side in order to maximise skellies contact


setup:
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So I imagine that if this works, you could have a sphinx and a block of 30 archers work together. on the turn the sphinx charges, the archers reform to 5 wide 6 deep and follow next turn. If the sphinx prematurely dies to cannon fire, you're not left with 30 useless warriors, but can keep archering away.


what do you think?
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so, shoot! it's a situational plan at best but do you see some use? did you allready try this? what's your favourite colour? other advice?

it seems like a good idea but I see one hole in it.

to get to CC you will still have to move forward, specialy if you are up against a shooty army, this will expose your valuable archers to danger because of flankcharge, shortrange for the enemy(oh, horrible idea), you will also lose your shooting for 1-2 turns if you get into CC, etc.

but it would still be nice to give it a try, please post it if you try it.

unit of 3 chariots does the trick if the enemy unit is basic troop/T3 alike.

if the enemy is a bit of a hard knot (and not in horde formation) I charge with a bus of skelies and a unit of 3 chariots at the same time so i maximize the chariots impacts, thus leaving only a prince/king in a unit of skelies (with a 4+ ward etc) to fight

Some suggestions to the Sphinx-Skelly Tango

A) Sphinx Bait - Run the Sphinx forward so that it presents a juicy charge target for your opponent and angle it so that it's flank is exposed to your block, while leaving the Skeletons at a 'safe' distance. This takes a lot of practice. If they take the bait, you've done well, if they don't, then Charge in anway, Fire Breath, Shoot, SSC, Casket, otherwise punish the unit for cowardice.

B ) Lead the Skellies - Put a nicely kitted King or Prince in with them, throw in a Herald if you'd like, and the Skellies are not such a crumble liability, after all. Then you shouldn't be too concerned about tandem charging to the front, or any finesse maneuvering. Obviously you won't charge the front of a Grave Guard Horde/Bestigor/White Lions etc, but there are still plenty of juicy and viable targets to be had.

Speed up those Skellies! (not directly related) - Skeletons are slow, but there are ways to mitigate this.

C) Desert Winds (obvious)

D) Horde + Swift Reform = March. This will effectively give you a march move on Turn 1, it will also take up significant deployment zone real estate to negate those filthy enemy scouts trying to sneak behind your lines. If you cast the Winds, that's even more ground covered on turn 1. This should get you into charging position on turn 2, meaning that Skellies can still cover some ground on the flank, and hopefully threaten the flanks of enemy units. Do this with A and B and your chances for the an effective Skelly/Sphinx tandem increase.

E) Enter Here, Exit There. USE THOSE BUILDINGS. In the terrain phase be strategic about the placement of buildings. Buildings 7"-8" from the deploy zone can be used as a launching pad for those big infantry blocks. Use D for deployment, (reform to ranks, gaining you a few inches then Swift Reform to enter the building), then use C to exit the building all in one turn. If you exit in ranks, you've effectively cleared half the board all at once, and depending on where those buildings are, the directions that their sides face, and the size of them, you can give yourself plenty of options on where those Skeletons end up, what formation they end up in, and what they threaten.

Yes. If you outmanuver your oppent and pull off the combo charge you want, you will win.

Two things on this.

1) This goes for all armies in WHFB.

2) Good luck pulling it off with MV 4 skeletons.

The more likely opition is to stick a sphinx out and let him charge that. He will max his front. (4 or 5 models depending on the base size)

Depending on his frontage, you might be able to clip/flank him on one side. Just set it so a unit can get to either side of his sphinx-blocked unit.







and then hope you break him before your flankers get flanked..because that would be ugly..

Don't you need to maximize the number of models that are fighting? Meaning that you may have to bump a chariot or two off the line to allow more skeletons to get in?

It says you need to equalize the number of fighting models in the units and maximize the amount of models getting in, but it doesn't say that, in this instance, chariots would have to get bumped off for more skellies. It's just "frowned upon."

well, actually yes, it says you would have to bump chariots in favor for 3 skellies each.

But if you have a 1x3 Chariot unit combo charging with a 5 wide skelly unit against a 5-wide infantry unit, you can do 2 Chariots in btb (1 clipping, 1 in full BtB), and 3 Skellies. It doesn't mean you have to do 5 Skellies and 1 clipping chariot simply because 6 models in btb(5 skellies+1 chariot) is greater than 5 (2 Chariots + 3 Skellies), it allows you some flexibility to equalize and maximize.

However, it does not allow you to have all three chariots in btb with 1 clipping skeleton, leaving 4 columns of skeletons unengaged.

(Numbers are for extrapolation only. I don't know the exact measurements)

This can go straight to the dirty trick topic! great plan. somehow I didn't realize you can do this with hordes as well, though everybody does it with the doomwheel, sphinx and friends. Nice!

So far, great feedback from everybody. to be clear about my intent: the plan is to make a frontal attack work. of course we all know a flank would be better, but that's not gonna happen.

In that light, the suggestion above to lead your units gave me another idea, not sure if he meant the same. anyway, making way with both your champion and some cheap necrotect will limmit the attack options on a clipped skelly unit, AND gives your sphinx a whopping 6+ regenerate.

by the time we're done, skellies will own the battlefield, people!

the semi literal text is

"but remember, your primary goal is to maximize [...] it's acceptable to have more models from one unit if doing otherwise would reduce the overall number."

It says acceptable, not you have to, but still.

Did you get my meaning?

You can't Swift Reform with a Doomwheel or Sphinx. You wouldn't need to, they get free reforms, anyway.

The idea is that to deploy a 40-50 unit of Skellies into a horde formation, then on your turn you can reform them to 5-wide ranks on it's center, which will put its frontage a few inches from where it was. Then you try a Swift Reform Maneuver (Ld Test) to see if you can make your full 4" move after reforming (assuming you brought a Musician). On top of that if you cast Winds you can get another 4" move in the magic phase. So you're essentially turning their M4 and no march into about 8" to 11"(with Winds) move or so.

It's not so much a dirty trick as it is tactics. Swift Reform can be a huge boon to Tomb Kings (Archers, Skellies, Tomb Guard, Horsemen, Chariots, NecroKnights). It's one way to mitigate not being able to march. It's also a great reason to bring a BSB.

i was wrong apparently.

can u put a skelie unit in a 25x2 formation and than swift reform it can give u a better movement. does it comply with a double movement allowance (for skelies it would be 'no model can move more than 8" ')

yeah I got it, but still thanks for clarifying :)
about the sphinx getting free reforms was exactly what I meant, they can pull the similar trick through free pivotting, but it never occured to me to exploit this through swift reforming. Adding the dessert wind makes skellies faster than skaven in turn one, which is priceless :)

we are actually the only army for which this is usefull. other people can allready march and are subsequently limmited by the maximum move*2 displacement per model rule. only we can get past that by subsequently casting dessert wind.

we are fast! we can combocharge head on! skellies, what can't you do :)

kill stuff

Anything except die.

an idea - if enemy is avoiding our skelies (keeping a distance destroying everything except infantry blocks) and dispeling desert winds we should try this

turn 1: swift reform into a bus and gain ~3" and move = ~7" move; ~11" move with magic if cast
turn 2: swift reform into a starting formation and move = 4" move; 8" with magic if cast
turn 3: ***same as turn 1***
turn 4: ***same as turn 2***
turn 5: ***same as turn 1***
turn 6: charge!

so u gain a bonus of ~9". might confuse an opponent and help you; but also might mess things up

uhm, I don't think that works. the fact that your centre of mass is preserved during a reform allows you too 'stick out, gaining ~3 inches' on the first turn, but if you reform back, you'll loose them as well, right?

Only works when you want to make a 90 degree turn.

hmm, will zigzagging give you a net gain? probably not :D

god damn it! i really should stop drinking...

Watch your mouth (fingers)!

Never, ever say (type) that again.

yeah,
when I'm trying the combocharging thing, I'll make SURE there's booze in the vincinity, for when it all goes to hell anyway.
(or when it works)

Don't you think that the reform trick being discussed in this topic might lead to frowning opponents and bad blood? I would feel bad about abusing the rules in this way to get a bit more movement. I don't think it would be in the spirit of the game.

maybe you're right. but i think my friends would say more like "oh, cmon... oh wait, that's genius"

at least i hope so

skaven players do it all the time with their doomwheels. they deploy them sideways in turn one to gain 2 inches, and if the oponent rolls first turn, the wheels even are more difficult to target with a cannon due to their dimminished 'depth'.
edit: hell, I have seen nightgoblins getting within 8 inch this way, for obvious reasons.

further I'll apply the 'rule of Teclis' here:
if you're an army that has only overpriced weak units, suffering from GW ignoring you (woodelves), you can choose the lore of life with nobody frowning.
if you're an army that fields a special character with properties that have been wildly changed in your advantage during the shift to eight deition, choosing lore of life is as cheesy as hell.

also: hopefully Sleboda will one of these days add to this the comment that you cannot 'exploit' the basic rules, as they are the basic rules. He will put it more flamboyant and provoking than me. :D

Well I guess it depends on how serious your local meta is. Our warsphinx and necrosphinx are probably also prime candidates for the same method.