This (I thought) would be a great idea.

Discuss the following:

1. What are the strengths of the TK army book.

2. What strengths of the book are unique to the Tomb Kings army.

3. Which strengths can be countered (and by what).

4. Which strengths are high risk or luck dependent.


This thread is not meant to be a collection of negative ramblings so please keep it civil.

Nice thread idea.

The Heirotitan is the golden nugget.

Since Lizardmen are my primary army, I am well acquanted with magic phase driven armies! In general, I like to throw most of my 'bread and butter' spells with a 90% or greater likelihood of success, but I don't want to throw more dice than I need to get there.

I ran a whole bunch of numbers, and this is what I found as a general guidline.

On 2 dice you will throw a 4 or higher 90% of the time.

For each additional die you throw this goes up by 3, so you will roll a 7+ at least 90% of the time on 3 dice, a 10+ on 4, etc.

If you get a bonus d3, the value goes up by 2. So 2 dice plus a d3 will throw a 6 or higher at least 90% of the time, a 9+ on 3 dice + d3, etc.

The Heirotitan bonus puts many spells in reach of 2 or 3 die casting, and it doesn't add to the chance of IF, and it can't be becalmed.

Speaking of becalming, in using the same criteria as above you basically take a -1 per die penalty to the value you can reach 90%+ of the time (and on 2 dice there is no value you can roll that reliably if you're becalmed).

An example:

Arkhan the Black (go team TK!) wants to cast the Fate of Bijuna with a 90% or greater chance of success, and he doesn't want to get sucked into the warp doing it.

CV is 13+, and he needs to roll an 8+ to cast (level 5 rocks!)

All by himself he will need to throw 4 dice (3 dice only gets him to a 7+ 90% of the time or more.)
With a Heirotitan on hand he needs to throw 3 dice (and will get a 9+ 90% of the time or more.)

If a floaty toad has becalmed him he needs to throw 5 dice on his own (8+ 90% of the time or more).

In the same situation with a Heirotitan he only needs to throw 4 dice (same 8+ 90% of the time or more).

And we get this for every spell!

So IMO the Heirotitan is the biggest, brightest nugget in or book.

-A tomb king or prince being able to bless the unit he is in with his weapon skill is great! This is a big strength.

-Arkan the black level 5 caster enough said!

-khatep overall best for our army loremaster is to good to pass up and reroll a miscast each turn is to good. His scarab scroll isnt that good hasnt done me anything.

-Love the new special charcters like rhamotep and nekaph. If you never used them try rhamotep in a tomb guard unit with halberds this unit becomes a lawnmower and only take necroknights as constructs and they get his reroll buff they have the best armor save in army. Nekaph if you have never used him is good really good. His ability that make the other unit roll 3 dice to take a fear test and add them can make units fail alot especially pared with a king with the mask that has the no reroll from the bsb. This pared together can make you win combats with units that are not immune to psych. And if they cause fear the mask on a tomb king causes terror which now causes fear which still works! Nekaph is good at fightng challenges to he is not by far the best ever but against alot he can hold his own.

-Chariots are a big strength and are amazing. We are the only army able to field mass chariots in large units and they are by far the best core choice.

-Horse archers being able to scout is really good and helps alot. They can scout and vanguard to if you need to.

-Necroknights are I think a underestimated unit they rock! but, they need support and alone they can be crushed. But with support you win like magic or flank charge support.

-Carrion there stats are a strength and they are good at what they do either redirecting or supporting.

-Tomb guard always love these guys. Halberds makes them even better but weakness is they can cost alot fast.

-Casket of souls probally my most mvp ever this is just way to good not to take I do not play without one. for its cost well worth it. Might be a lil expensive for d3 casting dice. But light of death makes people fear this. My fav thing ever is when someone charges it and kills it and then explodes and dies. I have had a enemys general vaporized cause he killed it.

Those are my faves and strengths I think we have I have more but this is all i have for now

1. Of the best strengths of the TK book is our flexibility in army composition. We may not have the best infantry, cavalry, or monstrous cavalry, but they’re good enough to work with each other.

We have access to every unit type in the book except for beasts and that is a good because we can field a variety of troops which have different roles and thus tactical flexibility.

Another is our shooting. Strength 3 may sound weak. But when it’s massed up and focused properly, it can decimate key units which make them easier to fight in combat and turn the tide of the battle.

2. One of the strengths that are really unique to the TK army is the way the characters work with the regiments they join (My Will Be Done…) That special rule makes our regiments deadly and it helps to keep them alive by making them harder to hit.

Back to our shooting, we have the Arrows of Asaph which is nice. Not the best thing in our army book, but it’ll do.

We can have a ferocious magic phase. A Casket, Lvl 4, and Hierotitan, and the Lore of Death can do some serious work.

We can have troops come up around the table through Entombed Beneath the Sands. Yes, they can’t do anything until Turn 3, but they still create a problem and force a reaction from your opponent and it help our mobility problem (going back to our composition strength).

We have Chariot units… for Core.

The TK army has a nice selection of monsters. The sphinxes are nice and the Colossus and Titan are acceptable too.

3. Our composition can be countered, but it can also be successful depending on how well the player manages the situation. You can’t counter experience… unless the person you’re playing against has more experience. In that case: good luck.

Shooting can be countered by heavy infantry and/or speed. The less time we have to shoot and inflict damage, the stronger they will be in combat.
Dealing with the TG death star can be tough to fight off. There’s always a bigger fish and magic along with shooting can whittle down that regiment and it can get cleaned up after that.

The magic phase can be countered by killing off some of the supporting pieces that make it work. So anything that can get up close really fast or can kill a monster would counter this. All of these things only work because of the lvl 4 so if the High Priest dies, then these are all supporting units with priest to support (in other words, keep your High Priest safe).

EBtS can be countered if the enemy has no reason to force a reaction. If they have no war machines to protect, why should they react? This depends on your enemy’s composition.

Chariots units hit hard, but they can’t grind. So Steadfast will hurt this unit so make sure you put them on the table where there will be little to no steadfast (the flanks).

Monsters can be killed by war machines and some dumb luck.

4.In my opinion:

Everything in the Tomb Kings army is reliable. It’s just they’re not the best at anything and it’s trying to work with that and make it work. I wouldn’t say anything is a high risk factor because we still suffer the same risk as other armies like magic.

If anything, playing Tomb Kings is a risk factor in of itself because it requires the army to work together and if one of them fails, it can create a huge problem. With some luck and the right mind, a good Tomb Kings player can minimize the risk factor and lessen the luck dependence to win.

Sorry this is so long winded, but this is what I could come up with… for now

Agreed. I do want to say, though, that I think it's a natural and productive part of this discussion to point out where things can go wrong and how. I think we all (even me) can manage to do this in the right spirit.

Bringing up the 'negatives' or counters to what some view as strengths can lead to countering the counters, so to speak, so let's not stifle productive debate!

The way I see it, at the end of this we ought to have a better understanding of what makes our army unique and how we can pull off some things that nobody else can.

Should be fun!

Movement, magic, and shooting. With a spell that allows a second move, the entire army can march and still fire bow shots. With various bonus dices to different parts of the magic phase, the magic phase can be strong. Since most units in the book have a bow of some kind, and the lore has a spell that allows them to double-tap, shooting can be immensely strong. It just lacks straight-line stuff like cannons, but then only a couple armies have those.

Deep-striking! Sure, other armies have ambushers, but none can come up in the middle of the table, ie, right where you need them! Done right, Tomb Kings can be one of the most mobile, shooty armies there is. Chariots and horsemen moving 16" and shooting via the spell can be quite the surprise, especially because that's normally the reserve of Fast Cavalry (that, and our Chariots can 'march' where no others can!). Then, shooting twice with them? Bonkers!

More about our chariots: they can be in units, and the more the merrier because they get bonus Strength to the impact hits.

The Hierotitan...monster, booster, and caster, all wrapped up in one cheap package! I don't need to write what else has already been written.

Movement can be countered by then filling the field with offal (or good units too...). Magic can be countered like anyone else, so nothing special there. Shooting can be countered by good armor, but luckily that's only a couple armies.

Movement isn't, but Magic and Shooting obviously are. Counter that by taking more. "Moar is moar betta"! should be the watchward. Don't like how your archers are only causing a couple wounds? Double down and cause more! Entombed units are flubbing on you? Double your chances of success (or triple!). Basically, the things we have that are dependent more on luck than skill you can simply increase your numbers to ensure success. Our units are fairly cheap, allowing you to do this.

Agreed. Please feel free to debate. ^_^

However

@ Everyone - If you feel something is weak - provide a possible solution of your own. If You can not think of a possible solution - ask for others thoughts.

Nothing is unbeatable, everything is workable.
Please keep this sort of attitude towards your posts, even if you can not think of a solution to a possible threat.

Overall, I think the TK's biggest asset is their versatility. We do something in every phase of the game. We have motion, albeit not the speed of some. Chariots, horsemen, Necropolis Knights all have swiftstride, giving them an edge to charge. Carrion and the Necrosphinx have flight as well.

We have our magic. Our casters are cheap. All three lore's have their uses, whether we take Light covens or Death snipers, and we can augment them in two ways. Two durable ways.

We can shoot reliably. Long range, hard cover, units blocking us, none of that matters to us. If we can see it, we can shoot it. Our catapults are even better, being flaming and magical though no more reliable than others.

We have fieldable special characters. I rarely hear of the other 8th ed armies wanting to take a special character choice, but we have Arkhan, Khalida (mmm, cheese), Ramhotep and Khatep.

We have close combat potential. Snakes, Sphinxes, Ushabti, Tomb Guard. All of these can bloody an enemy, and they work exceedingly well in synergy with the rest of the list (assuming the list is built that way).

On the other hand, I think our drawback is that we do not excel at any of these specifically. Warriors of Chaos outfight us, Empire*/Dwarves outgun us, Lizardmen out-magic us. That does not mean that we cannot beat these armies, it means our plans must vary for them. Ogres and Warriors will carve up even a Necroknight unit, but are not famed for having a high Leadership. Introduce them to the Casket, or have some Bowshabti educate them in the power of S6 bow shots. If the empire are hanging back, send in the waves. Necrosphinxes/knights will reach them fairly swiftly and will enjoy chowing on halberdiers.

Anyway, that's my thoughts in broad strokes, and that's what has led me to picking up Tomb Kings for my next army.



*I'm not all that familiar with Empire since the new book, this could vary now.

1.1. anti_infantry close combat units, aka grinders - chariots, necroknights, warsphinxs, tomb guard.
1.2. magic - really reliable with +D3 PD, +D3 on casting attempts, CoS the best bound spell in the game & the Lore of Nehekhara is really great.
1.3. shooting - stalkers, archers/charioteers, SSC.

2. IF on CoS bound spell, our deepstrikers, warsphinx special template attack, Hierotitan

3.1. well all anti_infantry close combat units are low armour, so I guess shooting and some above average strength charges into them.
3.2. dont save dices for a 'big un spell' cause many times there will be none, since the Hierotitan allows you to spam. Also dont be dissapointed if you save dices for the CoS and the TK player gets an IF (and IF doesnt damage him, tee-hee :) )
3.3. fragile slow moving skeletons, what more to say

4. chariots - either you get that swiftstride charge or in most cases you die. Warsphinx special attack is really 50-50 chance. Stalkers are a bit of gamble because of the misfire.

in this order for me

1. heiro titan
2. entombed units (especially stalkers despite being situational)
3. casket and its inate LoD
4. some of our special characters, though they don't fit our fluff very well (I'm looking at you ramhotep) It's a shame so many gaming comunities still disallow them

Everything else, while it can be good when working perfectly with the rest of the army, I feel is out shown by most other books. This is largly the fault of our books reliance on magic. This reliance can be mitigated by a titan, casket and 2 lv 4 wizards, but that's a boat load of points that makes you sqeeze every little bit out of the rest of the army. I'm wondering lately at the viability of 3 lv 2 casters in favor of 2 lv 4's. It will open up points for a king (which i'm never able to field due to my lord points being taken by casters) and with items like the power stones and wand of jet you can treat them like lv 4's on those 1 or 2 critical turns. still a load of points.

In my opinion our MAJOR strength is variety. I really feel that we are a jack of all trades, master of none army, although at times our magic feels very powerful, but I think that might be to account for Desert Wind having to be used to both heal our army, and to put it up to par with other armies being able to march.

Also, scouting fast cav (no flee, ugh :( ) is a huge tactical edge along with Entombed Beneath the Sands.

Ah I just knew this thread would come when I read that post :-)

So, here is a little contribution one of our assets could be Neferra's scroll of mighty incantations. Throw 2 dice from your pool with a l4 wizard at something like birona's or dessication (the higher version) or purple sun and it will get off almost 100% (hopefully your wizard stays alive, but hey you can't make an omelett without breaking some eggs :-)

Knowing you can pack one spell that should go off for sure is a huge boost to our magic. Ever seen 2 units of 4 chariots wipe out about 60% (literally) of an ogre army? That scroll made it happen :-)

Magic itself is one of our strengths.

An excellent topic, and one I hope can be helpful to all of us.

I'm first going to posit a somewhat negative theory, and then move on to what I hope will be a ray of sunshine at the end.

The theory is this: Our book is designed such that any single focus we build is inferior to another army capable of doing so. This means we may have some success when facing generic armies, but hit a brick wall when facing an army that tries the same strategy and is simply better at it. So for example:

Magic-heavy. We have the tools for a very magic-heavy list, with the Casket and Hierotitan crating powerful magic phases. With the rules for Nehekharan magic, however, we require two Lord-level wizards if we want access to a more powerful lore, which when combined with the casket and titan make a supremely expensive (though highly effective) magic phase. If we face things like Slann, Dagger-Sorcs or Kairos-led daemons we're simply outclasses at 2/3 of the points.

Shooting-heavy. Our skeletons and catapults are good value-for-points, something we don't see much in a TK army. Stalkers have the potential to fill niche targeting roles, also worthwhile, and many have reported a fair amount of joy with bowshabti. Once again, if we build a dedicated shooting army, we're on the back foot against an enemy doing likewise, namely Dwarfs, Empie or DE going a similar route.

Monster-mash. We have access to monsters in Lord, Special and Rare slots, as well as Monstrous Cav, giving us the potential to build a monstrous-themed army. The poor defensive mechanics of our monsters leaves us far more vulnerable than anyone else who tries to do the same, however (Think Ogres, DE, Skaven (yes, Skaven do a brutal monster-mash army) even Empire), and ultimately without marching our monster-mashes are out in the cold in comparison.

Combined Arms. Since we have access to everything, build in a bit of everything. Again, our poor points efficiency leaves much to be desired here, falling very short when facing cohesive generalist armies such as O&G and Empire, or of course DE (seriously, there is no strategy DE cannot excel at... f%cking elves).

So that's all a bit depressing, although not too surprising. What's a little more encouraging is that, like our previous book, we have some options that are truly unique to our army, and so cannot be one-upped by other armies:

1) Entombed. Our most lamented special rule, and one I've actually grown quite fond of. By utilising entombed units as redirectors and delaying troops, I've actually found them to be extremely effective troops. Nobody else can use these (well, nobody but Skaven, but considering the horrific expense of tunnelling most Skaven don't bother, even though they can charge when they arrive)

2) Core chariot units. Nobody else has the kind of speedy shock troops in their core that we do. Being chariots with a solid M they even make up a bit for the lack of marching, and with desert wind end up the only psudo-marching chariots in the game.

So there's my breakdown of our strengths. I'm still hunting for a way to use our unique features to create a truly competative list, as our opponents cannot one-up us if they don't have access to those features.

-und_ed

I saw this topic too late and posted this in the original thread, but I'll copy it here:

As to what the strengths of our books are, the Hierotitan is in my opinion as fabulous buy. A really, really good unit. I also think Carrion are excellent for the price. Another strength of the book is our special characters. Arkhan, Khalida, Khatep. All fantastic. I suspect Settra is good too, though I haven't taken him.

A less tangable strength to our book is that you can build a very playable offensive and defensive army, and that is something a lot of books lack. Try playing Warriors of Chaos defensively.

Great tread, read it with great interest! :-)

I'm sorry that I have a small and even though very personell rant: in my environment I'm never allowed to use special chars. Here around are no tourneys where I can use them, our campaigns are allways only without (not completly true, once I was allowed to use Apophas lol), and when u use them in privat games you can get an bad reputation realy fast.

So I hope to find more here in this tread to boos my TKs without the need for SCs :-)

Special sthrength from my (not so experienced) point of view: unit wise: Cascet of souls! Low point costs, big thread range, generates additional power dice, can't be ignored by your enemies.
tactics wise: I don't know. Perhaps that we have a little bit of everything and can use every game other strategies. So it won't be so fast boring to play with them.

Games Workshop really need to address that.
They removed the rule needed you to ask permission for special characters for a reason.
Methinks you should find another group to play with.

Shooting, reliabe magic phase, army wide immune to psych and fear, lots of access to flaming stuff, some good horde busting impact troops (chariots, warsphinxs), death mask for anti bsb/ld bububble.

Sepulchral stalkers!

To lizards, dwarves, heavy cavalry and high armour save units they are devastating and the same price as a unit of chariots.

Hirotitan

Great monster, spirit conduit is enough said and he's still a decent monster, if your wizards find there in a tight spot in combat charge him into a flank for the extra 3 S6 attacks and D6 thunderstomps.

Necrolith colossus

Will mash up light infantry on the charge.

Casket of souls

personally i think this should be included in every TK army. IT IS EPIC! 135 pts for an extra D3 power dice alone is worth it, then you get the light of death. Throw 5-6 dice at it and go for two 6's, irresistible force and no miscast!

Skeleton archers

Arrows of assaph, need i say more.

Skeleton chariots

3 D6 S4 impact hits minimum, got to use them smartly though, after the charge there not that hot. I use them in combo with skeleton warrior anvil units to hit a flank.

Necrotect

Giving hatred to a unit, just so many possibility's.

All the special characters are awesome as well!

There are a few things i don't like in the army.

Animated construct
Just isnt enough to save monsters on there own, and just because the sphinxes have T8, that doesn't mean they are that survivable. On there own a ranked up unit will hold hands, wave there flag and will still grind your 210/225 point monsters down. THEY NEED SUPPORT and it needs to be competent support or it will lose even quicker (looking at you skeleton warriors)

Ushabti

Over costed, same problem i have with the monsters, you will get more joy out of a unit of 20 tomb guard than you will out of 5 ushabti

Carrion

You pay for fly when all you actually have is hover (no march). Slightly over costed in my eyes. Prefer horse archer scouts for war machine hunting, 5 are cheaper and will get the job done just as well.

The Tomb king

I always feel he needs 1 more WS, i know allot of people here don't agree with this but the difference between WS 6 and WS 7 is dramatic when you look at the numbers. For instance, if you know you are mainly going to be fighting WS 3 troops (there are more WS 3 units in the game than anything else) its the difference between them hitting you on 4's or 5's. With him being WS 6 you will more often than not get the same joy out of a Tomb prince for 70 pts cheaper. However, he is great if you combine him with tomb guard and a necrotect, but this is throwing all your eggs into one basket and he can wear the golden death mask which is epic!

Over all, our army needs to play smart and support each other, each unit needs to complement and support another or it wont work. Everything in the army is geared to support another, My will be done, wrath of the creator, stone shaper, sworn body guard, entombed beneath the sands and the entire lore of nehekhara. I always think that my games are won in the army list, strategy and deployment phase, never on the quality of my troops. Everything has a job allocated to it before the battle and it does that job, because of this im the second strongest player in our gaming group.