Title: Help Against Empire
Description: I need help please
Tom - March 2, 2005 07:35 PM (GMT)
I fight an empire army regularly and need some help against it.
He usually takes 3 cannons
an elector count on griffon + rune fang :angry:
and 12 knights
along with other things which I can handle.
I currentley own
2 liche priests
25 skelies with hw + shield
and use other models to represent other models like tomb guard.
any ideas of tactics or wot I could get. thanx in advance!!!
Joris - March 2, 2005 09:30 PM (GMT)
Lotsa scorpions and swarms (3 swarms is enough though) and ICFB all.
I have never played Empire, so I don't know what rare unit you should take.
BG? will get shot.
SSC? will get shot too
Casket? possible I guess.
Try to regenerate a lot of that damage. Use heavy magic.
I think that if you're playing Empire, placing the terrain on the table is essential. make sure you can hide your units most of the times as they slowly make their way to the artillery.
Try to get your Ushabtis or SSC on his knights. No other real can-opener TK unit exists.
Tate - March 3, 2005 12:52 AM (GMT)
Carrion, deployed behind a rank and file unit with a king (if you use one that is) in it. First turn fly them up about 8 inches (depends) or so. Move the king's unit and all liches up to within 12"of the carrion. Throw all spells urgency at the unit and if it gets off then charge 20" into warmachine crew. It will pay for itself (72 pts carrion, 100pt cannon), will disrupt your opponents plans (he will have to deal with them or lose the rest of his crews in the next two rounds or so), and even if the spell doesnt get off he has weakened his magic phase by using up scrolls very early in the game.
Scorpions are good too, swarms would work but I dont use em because I cant find the points.
Bone Giant should be taken and deployed in or behind a forest at the beginning, therfore it cannot be shot at because the cannons cant see it. Wait around for your carrion and ICFB guys to do their job and then bring him out to deal with the tin.
I have been able to beat a 10 strong silverhelm unit with a commander (hero) with only 20 tomb guard (given a few summoning spells and a few turns) so his 12 knights shouldnt be that hard if you support TG with scorpions and/or a bone giant or another unit with a king in it.
The elector count is a pain with runefang, but at least you are immune to psych so dont have to worry about terror. Runefang costs 100 pts so the count will "only" have a 3+ save (full plate, shield) and only 3 attacks (plus the griffon 4 attacks WS5, S5, T5 W4, no armor). Ward saves are still allowed against the Runefang (I think?) so you could deal with the count with a king set up with the Golden Ankhra, Armor of the Ages, and Vambraces of the Sun. A Bone Giant might work if you get the charge. . unlikely unless you tie up the griffon with another unit, also unlikely as the large target can fly over stuff it doesnt want to engage. Its a tough fight, but at 395 pts its not really worth it in 2k I think.
collinsdanny - March 5, 2005 08:50 PM (GMT)
You should hope your tomb scorpian comes up next to the cannons cause with that they are finished
tomb_master - April 1, 2005 07:54 AM (GMT)
i have plaed empire for many years, and 3 cannons are not that deadly, now 3 mortors are deadly for tk, because of the large template, but if he is that desperate to kill u with the cannons, then just go behind them with scorps or tomb swarms, just dont remind him about the mortors or that gosh darn helblaster...or the steam tank...or anything for that matter
Chaotica - June 4, 2005 07:25 PM (GMT)
One of my friends keeps sniping my TK to death... and he has found a GW source that says it's legal (the source also says it isn't sportive) but it sucks hard, and his Karl Franz flying around makes sure nothing flees... I suspect next time he will take Cult of Ulric though, with about 200 models in 2,5k points (and 9 stoopid dispel dice), as he showed me this list, saying he wouldn't use it (if he says that he will use it most of the time)
Now, what can I do vs Karl Franz, cannon sniping and Cult of Ulric? Suggestions please:)
Nehcrum - August 4, 2005 12:22 AM (GMT)
Sniping it to death how?
With the Hochland long rifle? If so, then yes, it is legal. But most empire players seem to consider the Hochland as too expensive for what it really does, it's effect is more psychological.
If he snipes you with cannon, you can use the "Look out, sir!" rule if you got him in a unit....just take him out of that chariot.
As for having Karl Franz flying around and making sure nothing flees....I fail to see how that applies.
His special rule makes his troops able to re-roll failed Psychology-test if within his command radius (18" instead of 12"). Break tests are not psychology tho.....
His troops will have no problem charging you with his his Ld 10 and ability to re-roll a failed test.
But if you outnumber them in combat and win the CR, they will auto-flee, just like any other....
If you want to be really cheap about it, you can always point to what it says about the Empire special characters on the GW homepage.
"Here are a collection of rules for fielding Empire special characters that appeared in past publications. You can use them on the tabletop with your opponent's consent."
Bolded for your pleasure....
I know nothing about the Cult of Ulric tho, so can't give you any advice there.
Rickea - August 4, 2005 03:52 AM (GMT)
As my brother decided to field his empire army at the necro tournament which I played in, I have a lot of experience at 1500 to 3000 points battles, including a bunch this summer at 2250.
In general, unless I lost my hierophant early, I usually either won or drew as he had a very hard time countering my chariot units or Ushabti.
As I posted elsewhere in the tactics against empire, Tomb Scorpions with ICFB are very effective at countering war machines as are carrions. If the scorpions appear on the 2nd turn, normally he would have lost all his war machines by the next turn.
Also, hitting on 5 & 6, TK skeleton archers can do serious damage to t3 empire soldiers and the SSC can be extremely effective if you can get hits on his units.
Outside of the knights and lords, empire has very little that can stand up to a chariot charge or Ushabti if supported.
Cannon sniping is legal for Empire and TK chariot only gets benefit of look out sir if there are 5 other rank & file chariots - my brother doesn't play that way but says it is an often cited tactic on the empire web sites.
As for the original poster, he doesn't list any of the special or rare units which really match up well with the empire, so I would add Ushabti, carrion, and SSC to your shopping list if you don't have them.
Chaotica - August 4, 2005 11:16 AM (GMT)
Isn't Karl Franz also useable without opp. approval? And apart from that, I want to defeat his Karl Franz, not be an asshole.:P
Cult of Ulrich isn't that owning, the hounds he takes always flee and always rally, they generally walk in the way of the troops he wants to move, and one round of shooting wipes out about half his units. Just dispell the prayers that make him immune to psych and his other units run away with nice SSC aiming.
BTW: anyone heard about the guy who took a steam tank in his non-empire army because nowhere was stated that it was empire-only?
forgottenlor - November 8, 2005 09:43 AM (GMT)
I also have to play an empire army 3-4000 points. My freind plays with 3-5 war machines and the rest of the troops are knights. With their 1+ armor saves they are pretty nasty. Occasionally for variety he might take a unit of fanatics. But usually its just knights knights, and more knights. Killing one unit is not a problem. But what do I do against six or seven?
Rickea - November 9, 2005 07:04 PM (GMT)
Hmm, sounds like a Breton version army with war machines :o . So I would look at how TK counter Breton knight armies.
With regard to knights - Ushabti with their strength reduce the chances of armor saves working somewhat, Tomb Scropions have killing blow, and SSC ignore armor. Tomb Guard would have KB and ranks to counter knights.
Another option would be a large sponge/tarpit unit of skeleton to tie up the unit until flankers arrived.
You counter his war machines with ICFB & carrion while rest of army focuses on Knights which are expensive and should allow you to outnumber if you win CR to autobreak.
Finally, with that large an army, I would assume that you are using a Casket which would put preasure on a knight army.
Khalida would be another option (see my battle report), though the poison isn't likely to have much effect given their armor saves I would guess.
Phantomblast - November 22, 2005 06:14 AM (GMT)
The Queen of Snakepoison(or something similar :P) Gives your archers poison to their shots. Might help vs. knights. Just have a look in the special characters section in the armybook.
Detheroc - November 22, 2005 08:24 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Phantomblast @ Nov 22 2005, 06:14 AM)|
| The Queen of Snakepoison(or something similar :P) Gives your archers poison to their shots. Might help vs. knights. Just have a look in the special characters section in the armybook. |
She's called Khalida. :D Though i'm quite sceptic to that idea...
Phantomblast - November 23, 2005 06:05 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Rickea @ Nov 9 2005, 07:04 PM)|
| Khalida would be another option (see my battle report), though the poison isn't likely to have much effect given their armor saves I would guess. |
If I'm not wrong, poison goes into effect when a 6 is rolled 'to wound'. And the effect of poison is that the opponent can't take any armour save. Thus, their high armour saves has nothing to do with it.
Am I wrong?
Rickea - November 23, 2005 01:46 PM (GMT)
Actually, poison hits skip toughness, but armor saves are allowed (unlike SSC which is the opposite where toughness applies but not armor).
I just finished back to back 2150 matches with my Brother's retooled Empire army - will post the battle reports tonight or Friday but we split for solid victories in both cases.
The point of poison is that since TK bows only hit on 5 or 6s to start with, having those 6s be poison is a big benefit :lol: which I used very succesfully against everything except the knights (who have a 2+ armor save).
Against the high armor protection of knights, strength is important to give you a shot at wounding or something like the SSC.
StealthSuitStanley - February 3, 2006 08:08 PM (GMT)
Poison: Any to hit roll of "6" wounds automatically. Armor saves are allowed normally.
Killing Blow: Any to wound roll of "6" kills the model outright, no armor save allowed (ward saves are allowed).
My opinion against 1+ armor is to go for the killing blow abilities and use the Blade of Setep (ignores armor). SSC's are also good, as well as the DoE (though they still get a little of an armor save).
Chaotica - February 21, 2006 04:32 PM (GMT)
DoE does give killing blow as well. So smite away!
Cyberactivity - February 21, 2006 04:45 PM (GMT)
blade of setep is a must for opening up those heavy armoured foes.
DOE is also very good but limits you on the magic item selection.
Guest - April 16, 2006 10:31 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Rickea @ Aug 4 2005, 03:52 AM)|
Outside of the knights and lords, empire has very little that can stand up to a chariot charge or Ushabti if supported.
I disagree. Have you ever charged a big unit of swordsmen with the griffon banner and 2 detachments? It means he has a static CR of 10 (3 ranks + 3 griffon banner + Standard + Outnumber + 2 flank charges)and a 4+ AS. There is not much a few chariots or Ushabti are going to do about that.
Even if you charge the detachments first it is hard to win. The trick is to shoot it down first or to charge in the flanks and hope you can autobreak. Even the stubborn greatswords aren't going to do much about that.
Ra-num - April 16, 2006 11:18 AM (GMT)
The great holy of Ra fights these mortal men all the time.
And BOY that runefang is nasty.. But it is 100pts. About the griffen. the only thing you can do is drop a SSC on him. Or take alot of arches and shoot at it in rank- being a large target you can shoot in ranks-.
3 cannons can be taken out with scorpions-carrion.
I would take TG and a TK with the DOE. But thats what I normally take :lol: ..
A BG I woould not really go with at all..
But all in all its not easy...But you do have the goods to take them down :P .
Scarab48 - April 18, 2006 09:19 PM (GMT)
I am curious as to what other characters he has in his army. If he only takes 1 or 2 wizards you should have a good time outgunning him in the magic phase.
If he is bold enough to charge that EC at your TG you should be smiling. KB will smack him down to size and then just finish off the Griffon. And if you have a Tk in there, then challenge him with either the DoE or FoS. He will not have enough attacks to kill you outright and if you land with 2 S7 hits with the FoS he will be down for the count. No save, no more EC.
The 40" Carrion charge is an interesting move to take care of the artillery. Only problem is that if you win and overrun you may leave yourself exposed to countercharge/counterbattery.
Just placing the markers for the Scorpions and Swarms can give your opponent fits. I usually run 2 Scorpions and a 4 base unit of Swarms. That's 3 markers and I don't have to say which marker is which. If he is worried that his knights might have to wade through 20 wounds of swarms just to get to you, that's enough for him to change his tactics. In this instance, swarms combined with scorpions = no more knights. Gotta love KB. T5 on the scorpions helps too. Scorpions are lousy at taking on full-sized units of infantry, but they truly are can-openers. Remembers that their poison is also at -2 save.
In terms of charging his units, if he has detachments, charge them rather than the unit. If they run away, use magic to charge the unit. The key here is that the unit will not get the "countercharge" because that only works if the parent unit is charged, not the detachment. Most detachments will be 5-10 models of poorly armed soldiers with little to no armor. you should be able to blow through the detachment and get into the rear.
If you have to charge a unit, beware of units taking the Griffon standard. This doubles any rank bonus they have up to +6.
If he is taking handgunners, smile. They have no armor and cannot res. You can. Nuff said.
Greatswords are hard nuts to crack. Decent WS with GW (S5) and heavy armor while being stubborn is nice. However, if you get the charge with a good-sized unit, they will run due to CR.
Remember the psychological edge that even a 3-size unit of chariots will give you. Any Empire player should fear this unit. Combine this with the BotUL and he will waste his shooting and dispel dice at this unit. Then, if this unit hits home, it will make it all worthwhile. If at all possible, delay deployment of your chariots until his artillery is placed. Remember he must place ALL of his artillery at the same time.
I am not a fan of putting TK or TP in chariot units. Chariots are nice hard-hitting units, but do not have the Toughness to stick around. I prefer sticking the TK in a unit of TG and making that unit a rock-hard breakwater. Give the TG the Icon of the Sacred Eye and your TG will often need 3+ and 3+ to hit and wound and (if you Tk has a GW or FoS) your TK will need 2+ and 2+ to hit and wound.
All in all, you should be able to out-maneuver and out-magic any Empire army.
CURSEDOFTHEDICEGODDESS - July 27, 2007 03:56 PM (GMT)
You lot are nuts! lol
Fella's ST 7 with a 2H weapon. Insta can opener right there on your TK. Now if like me you tend to use a Liche High priest then Staff of ravening. You'd be surprised how easy it is to take down the EC with that on it's own...
I Agree with the Flail of skulls being a good choice for character bashing, although if he has any sense that EC and griffon will be whizzing about avoiding your TK/TP
Now have you considered big units of archers?, 20 archers and smite means 40 shots a turn hitting on 5+ ST3 vs T4 Odds are either a badly wounded or dead EC if he is daft enough to let you shoot it for 2 turns. Many people are by the way. 2 units of 20, well that would just be insurance...
Loads of the tactics above will work, just depends on what you have available. Personally I'd go hell for leather and launch myself at his army. Standing around shooting is boring! Ush, BG, cavalry (massive unit ST easily achievable) Chariots. Oh and scream the word charge at every opportunity.
robert - October 7, 2007 07:07 PM (GMT)
To kill a count on griffin w/runefang
TK w/ flail of skulls and golden ankhra
To kill knights
TK w/ flail of skulls and golden ankhra
To kill cannons
Tomb swarms and scorpions
To kill Steam taknk
BONE GIANT+ TK w/ flail of skulls and golden ankhra
I have tried this many a time, and it is magic against Empire