Title: Vampire Counts
plasmapuff - July 30, 2005 01:43 PM (GMT)
Full intro and my own thoughts later.
In the mean time be my guest in thinking up/discussing some anti Vampire Counts tactics.
Upyr - December 29, 2005 06:55 AM (GMT)
Why have no one added to this? Well I guess I could try. Having played VC and now intending to play TK (with a friend now playing VC).
Lets start with magic. VC has one of the best (in my opinion the best) lores out there. And most VC lists will be rather magic heavy, with 6-8 magic levels and at least 1 bound spell. If your designing your list for the game, get some scrolls. If not, do what you can to hunt his necromancers early on with Carrion/Scorpions and Urgencies.
Since VC has some very nice magic items, such as Book of Arkhan, Staff off Damnation, Spell Familiar, Bloodline powers, and so on, I dont think you will see to many scrolls. So you will probably be able to kick as much ass in the magic phase as him.
If you have SSCs, aim for his General. Destroying him will aid you greatly.
Watch out for wolves and bats. These guys can easily bind up your chariots and similar units due to their high move and being undead. Shoot them up when you can, and if you cant, try to take their charges with CR generating units/units that strike back hard.
Black Knights are dangerous, but SSC fire/big units/scorpions should be able to handle them. Tie them up with swarms if you are afraid for your flanks.
Infantrywise you will be evenly matched, but he is capable of raising in a much larger extent than you. Make sure to concentrate shooting/magic missiles on valuable units, such as a necromancer-carrying skeleton unit. This will "force" him to raise back skellies to that unit, instead of creating new units in your flanks and all over the place. So when you can, try to restrain yourself from shooting all you have into that BK unit (unless the general is in there of course) and try to "control" his casting with this tactic instead.
Dont try to take the Vampire in hand to hand combat with a not-optimally geared TK. Vampires are real killers.
If the Vampire is riding a Winged Nightmare, I think swarms is a good idea for a sacrifical unit should you require it. He wont generate that much CR unless he gets lucky with the rolls and you might even wound him/the mount back with those poisoned attacks.
I think TK´s greatest asset will be (as it often seems to be) magic, but also to a lesser extent shooting - and of course psychology but that goes both ways. Getting combined charges/multiple catapults on his charachter-carrying units is the way to go.
I have never played against VC with TK so this is all theoretical. I would love to see some more advice/tactics popping up here, seeing as how my friend plays VC and I might soon be playing TK.
Raggsokk - December 29, 2005 05:09 PM (GMT)
Here is a fun little read from my last fight against Vampire.http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=12315&highlight=
Yes I know we diden't have much scenery and yes he kicked my ass back to my tomb.
I am not a great player and don't often put much into my army (often make it 5 min before he arives) but thats really needs to change for me becuase he is starting to win everytime.
But to follow the topic and some few tips from what I have learned.
As he has more units then me he always deploys them after I deployed my Bone Giant and he will always tie me up. So his unit of 130 points stops my Bone gaint for the rest of the game. So hate that.
This guy killed my general twice now becuase of a lucky roll of 6. And they got great armour save. This is also a unit Im starting to fear. Don't be stupid like me, stay away from them with your high cost units.
Take dispell scrolls. When I started with Tomb Kings I was sure this would be the place where I would win. Sadly not so. 11 power dice and 7 dispel dice. *fear*
This wasen't much tactic help but really more what you should stay away from and think about for your next fight. I working up my new army plan for our next fight so I hope you post how it goes with your fight becuase I need more tactic plans :)
I would say find ways to take out his magic fast, and it should turn the table around.
Bone Idol - December 30, 2005 01:14 PM (GMT)
The main strength of a TK army over a VC army is our "total maintainance coverage"- everything in our army can be regenerated when damaged...the 2 most expensive units in a VC army, Grave Guard and Black Knights, cannot be regenerated and are a cheap source of points for SSC's...
It also makes TG a superunit...TG and GG are identical in stats, but TG can be regenerated whereas GG cant, a decided advantage to TK...
A smallish unit of TG might just surprise a Vampire- Vamps are as vulnerable to troops with Killing Blow as a Goblin Boss!
A smallish unit of TG working in tandem with your BG will deal with those pesky spirit hosts too, with their "count-as" magical weapons, and can double as (slow, I grant you!) Banshee hunters...
Of course, having a warmachine with magical attacks is a huge bonus when fighting ethereal creatures...and a spirit host is a pretty juicy target...
Archers are a great asset to our army against VC's, though he will regenerate those Skellie/Zombie wounds very easily...focus on units you can destroy...small units like Dire Wolves and Fell Bats (low to no armour too!) can be crippled/destroyed with enough firepower, and you can always incant an archer unit to finish the job if necessary, a unit with no survivors cannot be regenerated...
Ghouls are also natural targets for archers, being alive, and therefore un-regeneratable and subject to panic (again no armour!) at a pinch you can turn the archers on his GG, though their save and Toughness will see of most missiles attentions...
A defensive army should work best...the VC's have no firepower to speak of and cannot march, so need to march block...the VC general will have to make a slow haul accross the battlefield...he will be limited to largely movement spells to narrow the distance and cannot focus on raising excess skellie and zombies to make supersized units...you can also then stategically block movement spells on certain units to leave his army stretched out and arriving piecemeal, allowing you to focus your firepower and combat troops on each unit as it arrives...if it arrives...multiple SSC can make a mess of any VC unit!
I would not advise using the ICFB rule on any TScorps or swarms...your opponent has no artillery or march moves, so their is no advantage to throwing a TScorp upfield to take down small units, where it will be isolated and overwelmed in subsequent turns- in fact, I would argue there is little point to such units against VC armies...Ushabti, TG & Chariots are better choices...
I would also advise taking L.armour on your skellie units...most VC players dont bother with this (in my experience!) and this will give your skellies a slight advantage in CC (and a skellie with LA is no harder to regenerate, after all.)
Anyway, thats my 10 pences worth... ;)
Darkestyu - December 30, 2005 09:00 PM (GMT)
Bone Idol pretty much said it all. One of the friends that i started with played VC, thus i know them pretty well. let me help take it apart a bit, i won't go into to much detail.
A VC army revovles around its ability to summon, and its all important figure equivalent to our heriophant, the general. However, in games where lords are around vamp lords are damn near unstoppable. Lucky shots with SSC will work, but thats far too unreliable. The best thing you can do is tie him up in combat with a sponge unit. BUt if he were to hop on a zombie dragon, you should both celebrate and despair. Celebrate because his army is going to be tiny and if you can effectivly shut down his magic phase you can be him by outnumbering him. Despair, because the dragon is a real *****. Granted its stats are pretty bad for a dragon, and terror doesn't affect us, and we don't have that much AS to begin with so his breath is a waste. BUt what he gets is a high mobile lord on monster that can suck up a good amount of punishment.
The best advice i can say, and what i have done, if you know your opponent has a lord on a dragon is to shut down his magic phase. Then tie up the dragon with a sponge or two and annilate the rest of his army. Playing turn wise that would be the best way to go. If you can lose minmum units you can win due to VP, but more of the VP will be on the lord, it will always be more then 400 pts if not 500.
Samus - January 2, 2006 02:36 AM (GMT)
We also have a VC player in our gaming group and battled him frequently, about 75% win ratio against him with only 1 loss, the rest draws.
-It all depends wich bloodline, if all but blood dragon then a VC general usually has the same or more PD then you and most always more DD, i usually take 1 priest with 2 scrolls against these bloodlines, just in case, also using the same tactics our enemies use ---> dispelling the crucial ones (rank zombies before our casket, vanhells macabre and some other special situations are most important imo)
-In fighting blood dragons i must say its easier then the other blood lines IMO, simply because a blood dragon army uses lots of black knights and mostly in lance formation and are low magic meaning;
1. Knights have barding so M7
2. when fighting agaisnt a blood dragon list your own spells get trhough with more ease, i just make sure i go magic heavy against such list (LHPbecause a TK even maxed out also gets wasted 9 times out of 10) making sure his lances dont charge but get charged.
3.against BD we have the advantage in numbers meaing when you stop the lances you have other units in reserve to bring around to flank.
-As for special slots i def would take Tomb guards, some carrion and maybe a Tomb scorpion (ICFB is not that usefull since VC dont have warmachines etc. still could be effective as a possible flanking danger for the VC player)
-As for the rare slots, the casket of souls is great since VC have low LD units + it quels its strong magic phase, also the bone giant does very well against them, the SSC are still usefull but in a lesser degree compared to other races (no panictests)
rocdocta - January 23, 2006 04:04 AM (GMT)
i play VC, and i really struggle vs TK. your magic is so hard to fight off. all these bound spells is a real pain. but being able to raise a new unit behind TK units and then negating your ranks is quite handy too...
especially as i play army of syvania...3 dispell dice, no scrolls...woo hoo...
Ta'akul - February 22, 2006 09:31 PM (GMT)
Any recommendations for countering the black coach??
rocdocta - February 22, 2006 11:51 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Ta'akul @ Feb 22 2006, 09:31 PM)|
| Any recommendations for countering the black coach?? |
this may sound simple but...TK have alot of magic movement, so i would try and flank/rear charge it with a banner. outnumber+ standard+ rear/flank bonus will make it go pop. as with all chariots, they are most dangerous when charging. or just charge it in the flank with a str 7 character.
you could put swarms in front to recieve the charge and then smash it from the flank.
i suppose the key is do not recieve the charge from chariots!!
you could always briing a cannon? nah just kidding. bone giants do fantastic vs the coach too. i find undead should be as worried as others re: the coach.
hope this helps
ALichebynoname - February 23, 2006 01:54 AM (GMT)
Actually, Tomb Kings can take cannons :D They can also take the wonderful Bronzino's Gallopper guns. Movement 8 :o , with strength 7 d3 wounding light cannons is just pure evil. Not too mention they only cost about ten points more then a SSC too.
And the blind man says, fire the cannons baby, oh yea B)
Geist - May 12, 2006 08:00 AM (GMT)
I have played against VC twice now in recent history. I have noticed something. They take almost perfectly matched list (ie they are twins). 1 small unit of black knights (ok to me small) 8 strong. 2 big zombie units, 1 smallish skeleton unit. Some dogs maybe a few bats, 4 peeps, 3 lvl 2 casters. About 8 to 9 casting dice and7 dispell.
The two times I played against VC using these very simliar list they were cake to beat to pieces.
Lets deal with the hot topic.
9 casting oh no what shall we do. Bah, curse of years does not work on us, gaze of nagash whooo we take some st 4 hits, easy enough to save against and regen. Strike first and reroll, let em, because skeles and zombies will play hell to hurt Tomb Guard and chariots. Vanels come closer? Sure come on in make charge easier why dont yah FOR ME!!!
Only one spell I truly worrie about, hand of dust. I save dice for that casting. Oh and raise dead? Sure go for it, given all of my units have them out classed, ( no not being snooty, simply stating that my TK units are better than the VC units I face off), the combat res will never get you enough back to make up for how many they loose per turn.
Our magic phase, lets see. With my low magic set up some one would need 11 dice to shut my list down totally.
banner of undying legion, prince, king, king, liche priest, liche priest, liche priest using jar. Thats 9 dice of casting. 10 if you count the banner. To ensure you shut this down you need 11 dice.
Combat, do I really need to go into detial about this? Yah a Blood Dragon is nasty, but guess what, you can mince him with a King that wears light armor, shield, 4+ ward save and blade of settep. As a VC player I can tell you taking a 4+ ward save for a VC is risky, you blow those stupidty test when you dont think you will. Nothing worse than 300 plus points that cant cast because its gone stupid. Other units combat I wont go into detial about. Why? Because as long as you take chariots and TG and not skeletons, you will have VC out classed and have the finte movement edge.
Lets be honest here, we cant hit the broad side of a barn even if we were in it. Our massed fire might hurt some but not enough to be worth a crap. VC unless playing slavain, only has banishees and they cant hurt undead. Other wise its crossbows, that hit as badly as we do but worse due to range penltie.
Ok getting tired hope these comments helped. Please read around typos.
Langetim - May 25, 2006 06:20 PM (GMT)
Just a question: What do you guys think is better vs VC, a Liche high priest or a Tomb king?
Just wondering, as I have pretty much trouble aiganst VC :(
Geist - June 22, 2006 05:45 AM (GMT)
You trying to out magic? OR beat his ass down in hand to hand? You wont ever have enough dispell dice. But the good news is over half the spells dont matter for crap. Gaze of nagash ok go for it odds are you will kill maybe 6 if your lucky. Curse of years nope dont work, vigor go for it strike first. You will still need 5's to wound against most of our models. Raise dead? sure go for it. Give me more free points. Lastly hand of dust, only a threat against our bigger models. But most vc players dont try for it. Save your dice for whatever the key spell is they will toss at yah.
Other wise takea king for winning hand to hand. Liche if you really want to drain his dispell pool into nothingness.
rocdocta - June 22, 2006 07:00 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Geist @ Jun 22 2006, 05:45 AM)|
| You trying to out magic? OR beat his ass down in hand to hand? You wont ever have enough dispell dice. But the good news is over half the spells dont matter for crap. Gaze of nagash ok go for it odds are you will kill maybe 6 if your lucky. Curse of years nope dont work, vigor go for it strike first. You will still need 5's to wound against most of our models. Raise dead? sure go for it. Give me more free points. Lastly hand of dust, only a threat against our bigger models. But most vc players dont try for it. Save your dice for whatever the key spell is they will toss at yah. |
Other wise takea king for winning hand to hand. Liche if you really want to drain his dispell pool into nothingness.
why wont curse of years work? nothing said about undead being immune to it. its brilliant for casting on your large blocks of skellies, and can be cast without LOS. always helpfull.
vigour is a brilliant spell. esp if caast on a lethal unit ie vampire/wights receiving a charge. go first and reroll misses with str 7 great weapon or str 4 killing blow. imagine that vs your king...
raise dead is the best spell bar none. ok we are in combat cos you charged. i raise skellies in your rear. i then try and magically charge with either danse macabre, or the book of arkhan. you lose ranks, i gain 2 for rear. even if the charge is dispelled, i can still charge you next turn. or redirecting/ blocking marches/charges. i love directing khorngors and/or frenzied chariots into forest for the price of 2d6 skellies. takes them totally out of the game.
and dont forget if it is added to an existing unit, you only get the units starting point value. ie a 10 block of zombies worth 80 points is still worth 80 points even if you have added 40 more zombies to it.
what about if he heals his lord in combat. he was on 1 wound, now he is on 3...
never ever say the IoN is a poor spell.
i always take Hand of dust if you have anything big in it. especially with the "useless vigour spell" (not a quote, just highlighted.) if i hit you, you are dead. no saves possible. consider a blood dragon/strigoi lord hits you on 3+, with a reroll for hatred. not bad odds.
the king is good in combat, but a tooled up combat vamp lord will own a tomb king. thats not bias, thats my experience.
sorry if i sound condescending, but i have played VC since the new edition of warhammer, and TK are the main army i face. they are a hard army to beat due to their relentless magic phase.
Geist - June 22, 2006 05:22 PM (GMT)
First rules errata that curse of years does not effect undead. Second, those spells can work, but they wont work well enough to help the VC. If your having a hard time with them all I can say is either A your oppenet is better than you or B your list is not that good for taking them on. I personally have never had problems with them. Mission no mission, any of there list any of my list. If you want to get into how long we have been playing. I have played fantasy since 5th ed. So a lil longer than "but I have played VC since the new edititon of warhammer". So I reserve the right to say VC are easy to beat, given that playing as long as I have I have seen or read about all the major tricks. Sure there might be a new trick out there, but the best ones I have seen.
skyly - June 22, 2006 06:09 PM (GMT)
pwew pwew :P
leadership 3 !!
polskaman - June 23, 2006 12:09 AM (GMT)
if you are forced into CC with a vampire, it is best to have flail of skulls, collar of shapesh and vambrances of the sun on your King
Samus - June 23, 2006 12:49 PM (GMT)
I dont think the fail of skulls is good against a vampire; after the first round you got S5, against T5 thats 4+ to wound all consecutive rounds, against a blood dragon with armor you possibly wont negate his armor enough.
The destroyer with collar is way more effective against vampires and gives you a decent chance to kill him, the flail is less efficient imo.
polskaman - June 24, 2006 11:12 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Samus @ Jun 23 2006, 12:49 PM)|
| The destroyer with collar is way more effective against vampires and gives you a decent chance to kill him, the flail is less efficient imo. |
Once I done 10W(2 in magic, 8 in cc)in the first round of cc to a Blood dragon, he only had like a 5+ws(passed like 3) or something like that. imo you can get real luck with a flail, puls it is fun killing stegadons with it :lol:
Samus - June 25, 2006 06:59 PM (GMT)
Indeed, when you are lucky you can score some nasty results with the flail, i can def see that, for myself i will always try to banish the luck factor as much as possible in WH, the Destroyer gives more security, only a blood dragon with master strike and other nasty skills can kill the Tomb King before he gets mincemeated by the destroyer. 2 auto S7 killings blows and with smiting over again is allready well ove the possibility to killing blow him + the 4 S7 wounds he will be recieving will give him a negative CR compared to our own.
Perhaps i will be using the flail of skulls more often, if so many people talk good of it ill give it a shot, still against vampires i still would hesitate to use it. ;)
Scarab48 - September 19, 2006 03:19 PM (GMT)
Bloodlines (or lack thereof) are key in taking into consideration what list you want to take.
BD have lots of heavy cav and not as much magic and you can afford to take TScorps to do that role which they excel: can-opening! BG and SSC are nice to take into the effect of squishing the little troops. However, where you run into difficulty with BD is the Count and his Thralls. They can lay a serious beat-down on any unit, TK included. Take the CoS and Vambraces with the Flail (if you want the multi-wound goodness) or drop the Vams and take the DoE. A TK with TG can be pretty nasty.
Against Strigoi be prepared for the very fast VC army with bats, swarms and ghouls as well as Dire Wolves. The fact that the Strigoi can take either bat-form or wolve-form and give themselves some serious charging ability can not be underestimated. One good thing is that the ghouls can run away (SSC is great for this).
Necrachs and Necromancer-heavy armies can be a real pain as they will be just as powerful in their magic phase as you are in your's. Use sacrificial units and SSC's to drive out the magic users. Don't be afraid to kill your scorpions and swarms and even BG to knock out the general. These armies can get ungodly-sized skellie units that will crumble once the general dies. With the new rules for InChar outside of units, the VC player will be forced to either put the necros in the units (and the front rank if he wants to use them) or march them behind the units. If you know your opponent does the latter trick, bury the scorps and swarms and hit them from behind.
The casket is awesome against undead, but there are limitations. First off, VC's, much like us TK's, tend to keep the important units close to the general to march. This enables the VC to use the Lord's Ld9 (or 10). Plus, vs Necrarchs and necro-heavy lists the VC will keep dice around to dispel it. The real bonus of the casket is not killing the blocks, but rather decimating the flanking bats and wolves (and ghouls) as well as any new zombie/skellie unit created outside the general's range. Some lists rely upon wolves and bats to flanks and tie up units. Killing them off is bonus. But again, this is dependant upon whether your opponent takes those units or not. Strigoi often take all of these units and can be thouroughly shot-to-heck before they get to your line.
One other thing of note is the blade of mourning. While very pricey and somewhat limited in use, the weapon, combined with a proper miz of units to tie up and flank a big block of skellies can decimate large units in a single turn. Picture this: Large block of VC skellies (~40) gets charged by block of TK skellies w/ H&S and TK with BoM. VC skellies gets charged in magic phase by 4 TK chariot unit on the flank. Fighting insues and to wrap it up combat resolution is like +16 in TK favor (lots of kills plus outnumber, ranks, flank). BoM caused 3 wounds. In a regular sense the BoM double the negative modifier on the break check. VC don't have break checks, but rather lose wounds based upon negative modifier. BoM doubles this and thus the skellie unit actually lost by +32. Combine those losses with those caused by combat and....viola....no more skellie unit.
Geist - September 21, 2006 05:24 AM (GMT)
|One other thing of note is the blade of mourning. While very pricey and somewhat limited in use, the weapon, combined with a proper miz of units to tie up and flank a big block of skellies can decimate large units in a single turn. Picture this: Large block of VC skellies (~40) gets charged by block of TK skellies w/ H&S and TK with BoM. VC skellies gets charged in magic phase by 4 TK chariot unit on the flank. Fighting insues and to wrap it up combat resolution is like +16 in TK favor (lots of kills plus outnumber, ranks, flank). BoM caused 3 wounds. In a regular sense the BoM double the negative modifier on the break check. VC don't have break checks, but rather lose wounds based upon negative modifier. BoM doubles this and thus the skellie unit actually lost by +32. Combine those losses with those caused by combat and....viola....no more skellie unit.|
It has been errated and shot down. The blade of mourning does not work against other undead because they dont take break checks. Thank you for playing please drive through.
rocdocta - September 22, 2006 12:04 AM (GMT)
Why do I struggle vs TK when using vampire Counts?
Vs the TK player I am normally up against, I can normally beat him no worries with other armies/ game systems. But the main reason why I have a hard time vs TK is that the magic is very relentless and hard to stop. If you dispel a spell, the same dude just casts it again with no miscast chance. They have the “make a charge move spell.” Combined with having a free round of attacks in the magic phase, it is lethal. Now these 2 spells aren’t that bad, but the same dude can cast the same spell more than once, even if it is dispelled. And they aren’t rolled for so are taken and cast automatically. So I have 5 dispell dice and my oppo has 4 spell casters, he rolls 2 dice to magic charge with chariots. Rolls an 8. which means that I must now roll a min of 2 dice to beat it. If I roll 3 dice to stop it, he will just cast the same spell again with the same dude. If I use only 2 dice, it will prob not dispel it. This 1 caster has now cleaned out all my dispel dice, leaving his other 3 dudes free to auto cast spells.
If you are going to say that the VC spells can work but wont help, that’s not much help. That’s just giving an opinion. Why don’t you think that they will help? Necromancy hasn’t any useless filler spells.
The list that I use vs TK is always my tourney list. This list has gotten me no losses with 2/3 massacre results in the last 5 tournaments. It has 42% core and is very balanced. I think that speaks for itself about the effectiveness of the army and VC not being easy to beat. I could try and design a list purely around TK, but that’s not my style.
When I said that I have been playing since the new edition (6th) I meant that I played 5th, sure I could have worded it a bit better, but oh well. Since we are getting into manhood measuring, I have played warhammer since 99. so please relax the attitude. You may think that you are the greatest player in the warhammer world, with the greatest experience, but time shows that “empty vessels make the most sound.” Most vet players aren’t that arrogant to say that they have seen “all the major tricks” or “reserve the right to say army A is easy to beat”.
Sorry if I have come over abit strong, but saying such a blanket statement for an army as diverse as VC, and then stamping your “Vet” status was a bit much.
Scarab48 - September 28, 2006 06:48 PM (GMT)
Well I apologize for the mistake about the blade of mourning. I stand corrected. In that case it just becomes a 50 magic weapon useful for...killing ethereal creatures??? I guess that is about it.
Kouran - September 28, 2006 07:49 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Geist @ Sep 21 2006, 05:24 AM)|
It has been errated and shot down. The blade of mourning does not work against other undead because they dont take break checks. Thank you for playing please drive through.
That is so lame! What did they make the item for if Tomb Kings autobreak enemies anyway? The only thing it could have ANY effect on is other undead... and that doesn't work? :blink: ... Why is that item in our list?
Anyway, these tips are all very usefull, I'll keep them in mind when I play my friends VC when my army is done. I'm also glad I know the blade of mourning thing before I use it against him and he checks it on an errata and tells me I got the rules wrong
Chaotica - September 29, 2006 06:50 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Kouran @ Sep 28 2006, 07:49 PM)|
| That is so lame! What did they make the item for if Tomb Kings autobreak enemies anyway? The only thing it could have ANY effect on is other undead... and that doesn't work? :blink: ... Why is that item in our list? |
When our unit doesn't outnumber there will be no autobreak.
Scarab48 - September 29, 2006 02:41 PM (GMT)
The blade of mourning is very useful against the skaven hordes. We will rarely outnumber them if we don't get a supporting charge. With the sheer numbers of units a skaven army can have this is a very real possibilty.
It is also a useful weapon if you desire to take it with a TK/TP on a chariot as chariot units rarely outnumber and often the enemy is allowed the break check. This is especially true is you send them against chaos or dwarf blocks.
It is also helpful against empire unit/detachment combos where you may end up winning combat by only a point or two.
Magork - October 4, 2006 05:08 AM (GMT)
Yeah there is a lot of useless weapons in our book. It is kind of dissapointing becuase everyone is holed into the same configuration of items for our heores and lords, and limits our diversity and uniqueness between armies. However the ones that we do use, are fantastic items, and have many uses. The cloak and jar are so fun to use! haha
rocdocta - October 4, 2006 05:20 AM (GMT)
you know whats funny, we VC suffer the same, the only magic weapons we use are either the sword of might, or the sword of kings. i dont know anyone that uses the other VC only magic weapons. the cloak has caused me many heart aches!
Magork - October 6, 2006 02:46 AM (GMT)
hahahah. Well just remember skeletons arent wimps, they just dont have any guts.... :o I love telling that stupid joke to VC players all the time.
Chaotica - October 6, 2006 04:32 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Magork @ Oct 6 2006, 02:46 AM)|
| hahahah. Well just remember skeletons arent wimps, they just dont have any guts.... :o I love telling that stupid joke to VC players all the time. |
:angry: Just you wait! Remember, 'tis guts or glory! You've got the guts, we get the glory.
Bone Idol - October 7, 2006 05:24 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (rocdocta @ Sep 22 2006, 12:04 AM)|
| Why do I struggle vs TK when using vampire Counts?|
OK, Boneys in a generous mood...not! Seriously though, why not help our struggling blood sucker here? Firstly, to those of you who say "I always crush VC's"...well you just haven't met the right general yet. Over-confidence is the warm, comfort blanket of the soul for those who have yet to be properly challenged. Those who say "I just can't neat VC's," you are your own worst enemy. Expect defeat and it will find you every time...
Secondly, there is no substitute for understanding your enemy when it comes to defeating him...so lets reverse the question and help our VC friend here and ask "how do VC's beat TK's?" Or as I prefer to put it...
"If I was playing with myself, how would I beat myself off?" ;)
Unfortunately, our VC player has not told us his principle Bloodline power...as any VC player will tell you, a VC army is defined by it Bloodline (or lack of it if led by a Necromancer.) The Vc armylist is in fact 5 armylists in one...simply by replacing a few principle characters your army will change radically in approach.
Firstly, how to deal with SSC's...
The first thing I will say here is that the most effective bloodline to quickly and effectively deal with SSC's must be the Von Carsteins...with both Summon Bats and Summon Wolves you will have 2 units in place ready to deal with SSC's by Turn 2...I like to call this ICFB (It Came From Behind...) Careful positioning (interposing the SSC between the ICFB's and any archers/potential charge reactions from nearby units) will leave the TK player with few responses and is relatively cheap at 90 points...to save on those hero equipment points perhaps consider sticking to just the wolves...
Option two is the traditional one bats, big bats and wolves...dont like the wolves much...fodder for archers, and way to slow compared to fliers...
Option three...spell caster on Winged Nightmare/Zombie Dragon...flies close, preferably behind cover, though theres not a lot that can take out such creatures at range in a TK army, other than the SSC's...and that's what you're hunting! Raise a unit of zombie/skeletons in front of the SSC and charge magically...potential Turn One long range lobber chopper...! Heavy on points though and probably not your style as your not a power gamer and like a lot of Core troops...
Option Four is damage limitation. Spread out a little, if there's no CoS present you can use more of your deployment zone, angle your units in to converge on your opponents units.
On to fighting. Vigour is an advantage TK's can't counter...if you can get it off that is! With our near identical statlines it gives you an unbeatable edge. You'll need to tool up your magic phase for this (hence Blood Dragons are not necessarily the way to go.) The Staff of Damnation (also the Book of Arkan) can help you achieve this- remember TK are vulnerable as anyone else when trying to dispel enemy magic...
Take the Light Armour for your skellies...dont worry about the points, it can make all the difference in such equally matched combats.
So now your probably wondering, if not BD's how do I fight the Tomb King...in this thread you'll already see soooo many advocates for the DoE- a fine weapon, and the TK's best defence against a tooled up BD Vamp. Now I still think the DB has the edge round by round, but DB's mean less magic...neither is likely to take the other down in one turn, so the TK regains the advantage by being far more likely to regenerate lost wounds in the intervening magic phases...
....But IMO, the vampire count is not the thing that sends the shivers down my spine, and this option should suit the none power gamer down to the ground, and makes the DoE look like a feather duster...I'm talking about the least used character in the VC list...a Wight Lord with the sword of the kings is every thinking TK players nightmare...leading a unit of Black Knights with a 2+ save, he strikes before the DoE, with 3 chances at a 5-6 to leave you weeping into the dust that was your general...its a virtual certainty...combine this with Vigour and for all intents and purposes it is a certainty (3 rolls, hits on 4's, so re-rolls results of 1-3, any 5 or 6 is instant death...very few TK's take wards so bye-bye Mr Sandman...) It renders the DoE useless, in desperation the TK might revert to his HW, but he's never gonna get through the Wight Lords armour that way...)
Then there's the usual stuff...spirit hosts are superb against BG's, chariots without a character struggle against solid blocks of skellies with LA, HW & Shield...they need to autobreak on the charge or they become very vulnerable...flank charges against VC's are a virtual no-no... a tiny unit of zombies interposed between the exposed flank and the flankers...blocks this...with the new overrun rules being in a direct line you can use this by careful angling of the newly generated unit you can use this to "twist" the flankers and deflect them to where you want them to go...a decent general can use this (in the likely event of a wipe out on the charge) to force his TK opponent to either overrun directly into the charge arc of a waiting unit (most likely exposing the flankers flank!) or sit and wait tamely for the inevitable counterstrike...
OK, I have more, but I'll save thses thoughts for later...I don't want people to think I've switched sides! I hope this helps our VC guy and I'd be interested as to what my fellow TK's think of my deranged ramblings...after all, everyone knows VC's dont stand a chance against TK's...? :P
Kouran - October 7, 2006 07:05 PM (GMT)
You just greatly depressed me <_< ... I can't wait for the rest of the story
Homer S - November 10, 2006 05:57 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Geist @ Jun 22 2006, 05:22 PM)|
|First rules errata that curse of years does not effect undead. |
Sorry... where is this errata located? It seems since 7th edition's release, the Warhammer Errata
documents are much abbreviated and do not seem to mention this spell.
Geist - November 16, 2006 09:18 AM (GMT)
well this sucks they seem to have taken that bit out of the VC errata. They have been doing errata changes since 7thed. Guess this was or will be one of them. Notice how one side of the pdf page is blank? It use to be there sigh.
Dream maker - November 30, 2006 05:44 AM (GMT)
Hello there im new here!! i have played vampire counts for like 3 years and now im starting Tomb Kings.
Ok there is something you are wrong, a blood dragon army means less POWER dice not less dispell you can have the same dispell dice in a blood dragon army and in a necrarch army and usually more scrolls, why? because the blood dragon needs less proteccion and less combat power, points he can use to carry some scrolls i usually do this when playing a uber magic heavy lizardmen army but not against Tomb Kings.
I have played few times against Tomb Kings like 5 or 6 and what i really hate is those scorpions, and ssc... if that stands for screaming skull catapult oh and the magic phase of course, it´s really hard to know wich spell is a must dispell but in general a balanced Tomb Kings list is hard to beat.
The bone giant is like the black coach is very hard to use always try to flank and never go in a front charge unless you combine it with another unit, once a giant charged my grave guard making 1 wound, then I made 2 wounds (yes grave guard can have S5 with halberds) winning by lots and well you know the rest.
Try to maximise the numbers of ssc and magic, never accept the challenge against a blood dragon or a strigoi and ushabtis can easily destroy black knights if they got the charge and fear wight lords as said above, i have killed archaon with these guy more than once.
Zog_the_Stout - April 12, 2007 08:59 PM (GMT)
|I would not advise using the ICFB rule on any TScorps or swarms...your opponent has no artillery or march moves, so their is no advantage to throwing a TScorp upfield to take down small units, where it will be isolated and overwelmed in subsequent turns- in fact, I would argue there is little point to such units against VC armies...Ushabti, TG & Chariots are better choices...|
Unlike TK, VC CAN march. They merely have to be within 12" of their General.
|I would also advise taking L.armour on your skellie units...most VC players dont bother with this (in my experience!) and this will give your skellies a slight advantage in CC (and a skellie with LA is no harder to regenerate, after all.)|
Many VC players I know (Myself inc.) swear by it. Then again, you should still take it to even the playing field...
King Leoric - April 15, 2007 08:21 PM (GMT)
Any TK player who wouldnt use Tomb Scorpions or their ICFB against VC armies, is a fool. their really is only one way to say it. If TK rely on Magic to outmanouver armies, and VC players rely on magic to outnumber other enemies, surely it makes a heap of sense to try and cripple the VC magic phase ASAP? ICFB'd Tomb scorpions are ideal Necromancer hunters. if you put the markers near the middle of the board the VC will not be able to advance his necro's along with his main units for fear of being cut in half by the scorp. if they dont have theyre necro's in units theyre ideal targets for archers or carrion
King Leoric - April 15, 2007 09:23 PM (GMT)
Who cares if you lose your 85 point scorpion in the same/ next turn? you'll not only kill a 100+ point necromancer but gain dominance of the magic phase and possibly remove some Dispel scrolls or bound item too- a priceless sacrifice IMO
Danceman - April 15, 2007 10:07 PM (GMT)
Indeed VC can march, which makes the ICFB units very valueble indeed. Like already been said they can go after wizards too, not always going to be easy though considering most competent VC players use Necro bunkers.
Anyways, blocking their march makes it alot easier to set up charges.
VC does have plenty of ways to mess up charges though, roadblocks and wolves especially. This a major problem for chariots as he can force you to allign is such akward ways... chariots dont like terrain for example.
1. Take out his fast stuff. Best bet is 2 archer units, preferbly 15 strong(as always, for me at least).
2. Kill any wizards you can.
3. Take out what he cant raise.
This puts you in charge of the movement phase and allows you to more easily roll him over.
As for weapons for your King/prince I find flail or skulls to be great. You only need to score two wounds to kill the vampire.
Staff of ravening is great against VC as it is great at taking out the softer targets.
March block + SSCs = devistation.