plasmapuff - July 30, 2005 01:46 PM (GMT)
Full intro and my own thoughts later.
In the mean time be my guest in thinking up/discussing some anti Skaven tactics.
Dha-Quayshek - July 30, 2005 01:57 PM (GMT)
some simple guidelines when fighting skaven as TK:
Forget about the casket. got high LD thanks to "Strength in numbers".
Go for a flankcharge with some small unit (min US 5) and give the skaven a Skeleton unit in the front. no ranks = low LD (May still autoflee if beaten in combat)
Watchout for Warplightning (the spell) killed my tomb guard 3 or 4 times (thanks god for ressurection)
just my 2 cents.
Darkestyu - July 30, 2005 07:23 PM (GMT)
There are a couple of things you need to watch out for in Skaven. I'm only going to write about things i have faced and i consider a threat.
Ratling Guns- These guys are nightmares. They tear apart most of your units with ease. Maybe it's just my opponent but he hardly ever get doubles and he rolls three dices. Thats an average of nine shots, strength 4 with -2 to armour save. Counter with... Bowmen, you're best bet is bowmen, anything that get's within a Ratling guns 15 inch range is begging for death. Bowmen has a good 9 more inches and we can move and fire they can't. Use that to you're advantage.
Warplock Jezzails- While less deadly against TK, it is still deadly never the less, these Jezzails easily take out any undead constructs you have. They are also more resistant to missle fire getting a hefty 4+ AS. Also this is one weapon you cannot rely on to exploded. Counter with... One big weakness about these guys, Ld. A good shot with an SSC, or a Bone giant that lumbered into their wake(not likely) will easily panic them. Tomb Swarms might be able to do the job if they pop up in the right spot, being a swarm they have a hard time getting hit by shots and poision attacks are more then enough to take out Jezzails, remember they do not have rank bonuses since they are Skirmishers.
Plague Monks- These are another one fir for the nightmare catagory. They can have a potential 3 attacks each, immune to psychology, and they move fast. They are more then a match for many of our undead legion. Counter with... Frenzy or not, Ushabti ct these guys like hot knife through butter... with a flank charge of course but that was pretty obvious.
Plague Priests- Awsome fighters, aboslutely awsome. When they are naked they have a good 4 WS 5, S4 attacks. at I 5. With additional HW they get boosted to 5 attacks, or with a flail, 4 S6 attacks on the charge. Counter with... that being said... Kill them like you would kill all heros, TP, Tomb Scorpian, yadi yada.
Clan Eshin- Semi-deadly, but clan eshin units have nothing on Clan Eshin Army. So they aren't deadly when it's just clan eshin units without the Under the Night special rules, pick them off with bows.
Clan Moulder- don't make me laugh. They are horrible.
Warp-Lightning cannon- A very frightening arsenal. Able to shot through Terrain, models and thier own troops. It can get you when you least expect it. Their are times you get lucky, when the cannon fires a wussy strenth 2, or when it misfires, which is good except for a roll of 5-6 which is still risky.
Counter with... It is a warmachine abit one iwth a 4+ ward save, you're carrions can take care of this, remember they always flee, use that too you're advantage, chase them across the board if you have too. Again an well placed Tomb Swarm or Scorpian can also have the same desireble affect.
Warplock Engineers- These guys are pure evil, it anything were to blow itself up these guys would be the first to go, but except a lot of your models to be gone before this guy actually kills itself. Being able to dish out D6 or 2d6 strength 5 magic missle is nothing to laugh at, espically when their is three of them. Counter with... Carrions, bowfire, SSC( yes they are that scary), and an occasional suicide prince.
TheEric - September 28, 2005 08:05 PM (GMT)
This is in response to Vampiresoul:
The Casket ignores the added leadership from ranks that skaven get, as its damage is determined using the base leadership, or the general's leadership if he is near. Of course, why take a casket when you can take another catapult? Catapults are amazing against skaven. Add some skulls of the foe, fire in weak areas, and you will soon see the skaven fleeing before you (of course, at the speed which our units move, "before you" is a relative term)! This is assuming that they don't explode, which is quite depressing. On the first turn of a game I lost, both of my catapults blew up, and the skaven player then wiped out an entire block of 25 skeletons with that "Plague" spell. Quite depressing. Still, these things really work wonders against skaven.
Detheroc - September 28, 2005 08:21 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (TheEric @ Sep 28 2005, 08:05 PM)|
| On the first turn of a game I lost, both of my catapults blew up, and the skaven player then wiped out an entire block of 25 skeletons with that "Plague" spell. Quite depressing. |
Ok, that is just sad! That's what i call bad luck... Is it even possible to be beaten that fast? :mellow:
TheEric - September 28, 2005 08:53 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Detheroc @ Sep 28 2005, 08:21 PM)|
Ok, that is just sad! That's what i call bad luck... Is it even possible to be beaten that fast? :mellow:
Yea, and, in my case, it happens a lot... Have you ever seen a Tomb King, when in a unit of Skeletons, killed by a unit of normal goblins? I have. I lost a little bit of myself on the inside that day.
Then, of course, there is that Oh-So-Famous saying, "Anything but a 1/misfire."
Chameleon-Archer - September 29, 2005 02:35 AM (GMT)
:lol: Bwah, that saying is all too popular....
and thats why i love lore of heavens, 2nd sign of Amul is a essential for both my slann and my 2 priests. meaning a potential of 3-9 rerolls a turn!!!! :o
but theres always that rogue 1. that screws u over. ;)
Lord Potsmasher - September 29, 2005 11:03 AM (GMT)
I've only played TK once with my Skaven, and the one time I did I got crushed.
Then I found out that my opponent had cheated, changing the rules of the casket to make it much more effective (I forgot exactly what, It's been over a year). and getting 2 of them...
So.........I can't really say anything... :P
TheEric - September 30, 2005 12:19 AM (GMT)
2 caskets? That's horrible. And yet so beautiful. Oh, if only...
Renegade - November 29, 2005 05:26 PM (GMT)
whats the best why of killing loads and loads of rats ( i hoping its the screaming skull catapult)
Chaotica - November 29, 2005 05:45 PM (GMT)
The fastest way is using your casket. They won't get the LD bonus for ranks against the casket as it is not a test. Yes, I know this for 100%, so let's not start that discussion again :P
Also, 1 SSC almost compulsory, and once they run, I believe they no longer benefit sfrom the strength in numbers rule (as fleeing units don't really have ranks).
Detheroc - November 30, 2005 05:05 PM (GMT)
Yup, the best way is a few hard hitters like chariots and Ushabti, a solid infantry block or two, some archers, one or two ICFB units, and totally maxed out on rare choices with a casket and catapults. It works just fine with the people i meet atleast. ^_^
Tate - December 2, 2005 06:07 AM (GMT)
The catapult is not the best way to beat skaven. Any good skaven player will have LD 10 or at worst 9 (Warlord or Grey Seer with ranks). You cannot count on one unit failing a 9 or 8 LD test assuming your shot even hit (with so many units it had better hit something, but it still wont always as it should misfire 1/6). Even if the unit flees, it rallies on a 7/8 and there should be several (4-9) other big ranked units nearby to hurt you anyway[none of which should panic because the fleeing unit took casualties and is smaller than all other nearby units]. Clan pestilins plague monks are your main concern as they are immune to fear and panic (frenzy) and have 3 attacks and T4. They can carve through your skelletons no problem, especially if backed up by a Plague Priest with a Cencer (merely 86 pts for 4 S6 attacks in the first round plus posion gas)
Chariots are actually pretty good as long as no rattlin guns eat em up. Other than that hopefully they fail some fear checks (at LD 9/10 its not guaranteed) or misplay and leave you an opening. Other than waiting for them to screw up, use light cav or bowmen as bait for either the frenzied pestilins units or use them to divert clanrats. Be careful as good skaven players will have already thought of a counter to your counter (like in chess, skaven players need to be a few turns ahead in their thinking). A flanked skaven is a dead skaven, simple as that. However skaven players often sacrafice units so be prepared to have a very short celebration if you kill 25 clanrats, as its only 140 pts . . . maybe 240 if you got its banner. . . whoopie. . .
Skaven are a tough army to beat. Dont forget that the jezzails make short work of a bone giant. Very short work.
Ra-num - December 2, 2005 01:22 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Chaotica @ Nov 29 2005, 05:45 PM)|
| The fastest way is using your casket. They won't get the LD bonus for ranks against the casket as it is not a test. Yes, I know this for 100%, so let's not start that discussion again :P|
Really... I play skaven alot and I've never heard of this???.
It does not matter if it's a standard Ld test or not??. Skaven get a Ld bonus from ranks and the casket effects leadership <_< .
Let me have a looky at the Q&A...
Chaotica - December 2, 2005 04:52 PM (GMT)
There have been 1000000000 topics about it, and each one ended like: yeah well, it isn't a ld based test, and the rule only counts for tests, so they can't use it.
Ra-num - December 3, 2005 08:15 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Chaotica @ Dec 2 2005, 04:52 PM)|
| There have been 1000000000 topics about it, and each one ended like: yeah well, it isn't a ld based test, and the rule only counts for tests, so they can't use it. |
Funny how I have not seen one???.
Anyway I know where you are coming from... The problem is that it is already been ruled on...
You can use your leadership from your general for the casket plus any bonuses to Ld from magic items or abilities...
I know GW could of worded it better, but you can argue that about alot of rulings...
So long as it's been ruled on then it's AOK...
foough - April 17, 2006 09:00 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Tate @ Dec 2 2005, 06:07 AM)|
| The catapult is not the best way to beat skaven. Any good skaven player will have LD 10 or at worst 9 (Warlord or Grey Seer with ranks). |
But a decient catapult shot will thin down the unit
hence the ranks will be reduced meaning lower LD. Also
If you target the General's unit and make them flee,
their LD will be lowered as they wouldn't be able to use his LD
meaning the average LD will be around 8, and -1of the SOF
Geist - May 12, 2006 07:34 AM (GMT)
Skaven in general. Dont make me laugh. We have the PERFECT tools to make them run in horror from us at a dime. Icon of the cursing word, no armor saves goes on bases leadership can not be stopped only cost 25pts. Mount this bad boy on a chariot and watch 5 rats die as they try to roll less than a 5 on 2 dice.
Blade of mourning. If they some how get to make a test its at double the combat res penltie. Whats that you have a leadership 9 thanks to general and I only won combat by 2? OOOH wait its a 4 now. Roll that 5 or less on 2 dice.
Tomb swarms, perfect for eating jezzails.
Tomb scorpion, him plus a well timed chariot charge. Dead rats and lots of em.
Heres one just off the top of my head.
King with death mask and Cloak of dunes. Its what yall here call a sucide king, only he terrors about 6 units before he blows up.
Chariots, I can never stress impact hits on flanks enough.
Usthabti, power house units that would cleave up rats by the groceries barrel.
Tomb guard, the best thing that can be tossed at em would be rat orges or posion wind globaers. Thats easy enough to solve, spear of get back wounds and banner of undying legion, and if your really worried about wounds liche priest with jar tossing nothing but heal spells.
I am sorry guys but normal rats, are not a threat. Eshin all skirmish assain team army, thats a threat.
Hornet - May 24, 2006 10:21 PM (GMT)
to be quite honist, i think the tomb king chariots are quite poo.
i play skaven and i play Tomb Kings alot, and they do nout,
they either get blown up, or charge, and die.
To mince rats is easy. concentrate bow fire on the generals unit, whist caterpults rain death on ohter units (hunt for units with warlock engineers in them!)
the faster you are the better, so take scorpians, or 2, with ubshabity and carrions.
go jezzail hunting with them, scare the ###### out of them.
tomb king magic scares me alot, so take advantage of it, expecally the shooting the caterput twice. also if you use it to charge, it a big problem when your ratling guns don't fire.
and a tip for killing ratling guns. if you tie up the units that the guns are taking cover from. you can shoot at them. read the rules :D
have fun killing rats, theres plenty more where that came from :P
Ra-num - May 25, 2006 07:17 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Hornet @ May 24 2006, 10:21 PM)|
| to be quite honist, i think the tomb king chariots are quite poo.|
Ya joking right!!! :blink: .. TK chariots are our best unit...
foough - May 25, 2006 12:21 PM (GMT)
|to be quite honist, i think the tomb king chariots are quite poo.|
i play skaven and i play Tomb Kings alot, and they do nout,
they either get blown up, or charge, and die.
If they are readly so poo
why do people blow them up in the first place and also they are alreadly dead :lol:
Hornet - May 25, 2006 06:35 PM (GMT)
i don't know, maybe becouse people think they are good, but i don't they arn't a threat to my army, in my eyes, maybe one day when they do somthing, i'll say there not poo and might just say there good.
no offence :D
Ra-num - May 26, 2006 08:18 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Hornet @ May 25 2006, 06:35 PM)|
| no offence :D |
No offence taken..
It is really down to the likes and dislikes of the player.. Take Ushabti I never do well with them. But they are good.
destroyer of E - May 31, 2006 07:01 PM (GMT)
I have the Skaven book and where does it say that u can attack them when the main unit is in combat? or is it in the Main book?
Ra-num - June 1, 2006 07:35 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (destroyer of E @ May 31 2006, 07:01 PM)|
| I have the Skaven book and where does it say that u can attack them when the main unit is in combat? or is it in the Main book? |
It says that ratling cannons and warp-fire throwers are teams and get the same cover a characters on their own.
If a unit can not be a legal target then characters can not gain cover from them. So if a close unit is in combat then it can not be a legal target, thus will not give a character- team cover.
Note though a unit in comabt can be a legal target for skaven... Hmmm interesting.
Skavenslayer - June 12, 2006 09:46 AM (GMT)
First, sorry for my english, and forgive me any mistake that I made, :D
I've never had any problem with skavem, usually i've killed them with screaming scull catapult first, and forced skaven player to drop his precious dispel scrolls to prevent dual shots.. When properly time was came, then i declared few chairot charges (with magical support) into weakness units (slaves) or flank chareges against main (rarely). Then, thanks to overruns, or rdirects rule, I've always hit another units in more dangerous way for skaven.
This tactics need some planning, but usually working well - skaven units (big blocks) must stay close together, so after deploy, any order in skaven army is almost impossibe to change.
Second, even if skaven player try to change something, or deploy his army in quite problematiccally way for me, it's always possible to scropions catch any units and stay in combat (even hopeless) until moment, when other, more destructive Khemri units arrive.
And most important thing: our priority targets are Warclocks engineers. Rest is simply. Skaven playing against Khemri without dispel dices and dispel scrolls is dead skaven. So even suicidal scorpion charge are allowed. But, of course, try not to lost your princes or other character - this is non-profit exchange. Our magic is weakened then, so better for skaven.
g0at - June 12, 2006 04:38 PM (GMT)
I'm playing skaven in a week, I got a question, after reading how they can make characters that devistated chariots, would it be a better idea to have the standard 3 chariots + chariot w/ prince, or something different like say 12 heavy horseman with a war banner?
Geist - June 21, 2006 08:28 PM (GMT)
goat, always use chariots. First cheaper cash wise, as you need less of them than you do heavy cav. Second, much more durable. Third, impact hits will make them 5 times more effective in hand to hand than 5 or 6 st4 hits from heavy cav. One unit of 3 chariots with a champion no banner can do a amazing 22 wounds. The break down.
d3 impact hits up to 9
6 horses up to 6
3 handlers up to 3
4 charitoers up to 4 (3plus1 from champion.
Total possible number of st4 wounds= 13
Total possible number of st3 wounds = 9
Grand total of mixed st3 and st4 wounds 22
The break down part 2 reailty.
9divide by 2 4.5
Grand total of actual wounds against toughness 3 and 4 targets
Now lets look at heavy cav.
You said 12 ok I assume that shall be 4 wide, but I will also do 6 wode 2 deep.
First 4 wide
5 attacks on the charge.
5 divide by 2 2.5
4 horses divide by 2 2
total of st 4 charge hits 3
total of st 3 charge hits 2
Grand total in 4 wide 5.
Now 6 wide.
7 divide by 2 (extra one again for assumed champion did the same eariler just didnt state it).
6 horses divide by 2 3
Grand total of st 4 3.5
Grand total of st3 3
Max possible 7
Now I know these forulmas did not show to hit, but if you look at the math it should come out close enough (to hit and to wound) that it works out about the same. So you have a realstic possible total of 12 from chariots, 5 in 4 wide heavy cav, and 7 with 6 wide heavy cav.
The best cav is giving you 7 but your so wide you will be flanked the instant you go for a charge.
The total best is 3 chariots with no banner and only a captian buy up.
I would go futher into detial but I feel at this point I have flooded so much data that well my point is made.
The_Reckoning - July 6, 2006 01:16 PM (GMT)
But don't be so sure about chariots getting the charge considering Skaven can move 10" or sometimes 12" inches for their charges.
Also chariots get thrashed by ratling guns. 15" d6 (or 2/3d6 but risking misfire) automatic hits, 4+ to wound and no armour saves for 5+ save chariots. On average with 2d6, which is the usualy number rolled, 7 wounds. 2 chariots dead per ratling gun per turn the chariots are in range.
Throw in some expendable [40pt for 20 rats] slave units to block the chariots charging the ratling gun's parent unit and absorb the damage from impact hits, or just flee as a reaction and lure the chariots into the Skaven unit.
Samus - July 6, 2006 03:29 PM (GMT)
Skaven normally charge 10",Chariots charge 16",you would be a extremely bad guesser if you cant measure 6", Chariots outmanuever anything from skaven, combined with magic they move lightspeed.
Chariots are good vs. Skaven, all those S4 impact hits do alot of damage.
Doomthought - July 9, 2006 12:17 PM (GMT)
And don't forget the Skaven Generals favorite tactic, throwing slaves into combat with a unit then hving the rest of his army shoot into that combat! Very nasty!
And since I can't find an Introduction section, I'll do it here. I I'm Doomthought and I am going to start Tomb Kings. Thats why I joined this place. Hope to become more active withe the purchase of the Army book.
Geist - July 13, 2006 01:07 AM (GMT)
Ok I am sorry I held my fingers (from typing this) for some time. But I cant hold em anymore Recoking how many games have you played? How long have you played TK? What is your tract record with any wargame period. Becuase I am sorry, but what crack are you smoking. 16 is greater than 10 any day of the week. NO way in bloody hell are you not going to be able to get your chariots to charge in. Just no way. Yes you could have certain sittuions come up. But in your average game, with the skaven outnumber you 2to1 or even 4to1 (units not models), you will charge them they will have too many blocks in there own ways. Sorry all rant off, that was just a pretty damn irratting statment he made. Sorry sorry.
Ra-num - July 13, 2006 05:25 AM (GMT)
Why yes skaven will always outnumber you. But that does not mean that you can't get certain charges off. The more troops he has the more clogged his battleline will be.
hell, I know My first army was Skaven. Right back in 3rd edition- more troops means less room. And remember the more panic that will be going on.
Geist - July 13, 2006 07:13 AM (GMT)
Ra-num thank you for defending my POV. But thats not why I said sorry over and over. Its because I let a lil thing like Reckonings lack of observations get to me. Just because his POV is wrong does not mean I should get upset by it. Thats all. Thank you though.
Ra-num - July 13, 2006 01:10 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Geist @ Jul 13 2006, 07:13 AM)|
| Its because I let a lil thing like Reckonings lack of observations get to me. Just because his POV is wrong does not mean I should get upset by it. Thats all. Thank you though. |
Why does what Reckoning had to say get you so upset Geist??. PM me if you want to talk about it "without any other ears"...
Chaotica - July 13, 2006 01:37 PM (GMT)
Geist thought Reckoning was being really dumb and made that clear in a not-very-subtle way, so he says sorry for that. If I observe correctly. ;)
Samus - July 13, 2006 06:57 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Ra-num @ Jul 13 2006, 01:10 PM)|
| Why does what Reckoning had to say get you so upset Geist??. PM me if you want to talk about it "without any other ears"... |
There are also some curious people who want to know. ;)
Geist - July 13, 2006 11:45 PM (GMT)
Chaotica has hit it on the money.
Samus - July 14, 2006 07:32 PM (GMT)
Yeah, i thought so, ive also posted some "strange" responses when being a tad emotional, we all get our influences in life, being it good or bad, indirectly manipulating our way of reacting on the forum.
Bin there, done that.
Chaotica - July 14, 2006 11:10 PM (GMT)
Life is a bitch sometimes.