Crushing Chaos, Inbreds Inc: Free tentacles- today only!

Full intro and my own thoughts later.

In the mean time be my guest in thinking up/discussing some anti Chaos tactics.

Tips on DL of Slaanesh:

Being a TK player and a DL player, I believe I can shed some light on this:

Firstly: A DL will mostly have a tooled up DP or an ED. If it's the slaanesh one, you can almost count on Soporific Musk and lvl 4 wizard.
The Musk is something we cannot do anything about. If the DP charges your skeletons, then laugh up his face halving ws2 and I2.....

Use alot of skeletons and chariots against ANY DL... except a Khorne DL led by a BT, but that's really really rare. If the DL got chariots, send in a suicidel TK with DoE or Great Weapon.

Everything in the DL got atleast 5+Wardsave.

Daemonettes are quite easy to destroy. Flank them with a US5+ unit and give them a unit of 20 or so Skeletons on the front. Can anyone say, bye ladies?. They would have to slay atleast 6 skeletons, without losing any Daemons themselves.

Just watchout for Pleasureseekers (boobworms), Chariots of Slaanesh and MTD Daemonettes... they got a 20" march and charge range...

Pardon the retarded title, This topic wil mainly talk about the army of Mortal Chaos, Is you want to know how to counter those seemingly unstoppable heros and godly Lords, look for the second topic i'll post.

Today we'll explore the four colors of chaos and how to deal with them!

Undivided

*Chaos warrior looking at different applications*
" This Khorne guy sounds real good, requires nothing more then being able to decapitate a men in a single blow.. but i need to graduate elementry school.. which i didn't *throws blood stained application away*, Slannesh looks real good! But here it says i need the Stamina to go on for looooooooong nights... which i don't think i have.. *throws pink application away* Nurgle needs me to not take a shower for at least a year, but i took one yesterday *throws greased stained application away* Tzenntch needs me to get plastic surgery to look like this *looks at a photo of Micheal Jackson*..... pass......*reads last application slowly* if...you...can...read..th-this...you..are..over-over qua- qualified? Undivided Chaos here i come!"


Undivided Chaos does not have the powerful marks that the other armies have, however due to the points they saved on the marks they can potentially field more models then any other chaos army... well maybe not Archaeon's horde....

The Mark of Chaos Undivided is free, and it allows the bearer to reroll psychology test. While it's usually on ld 8, a reroll is quite effective.

Warriors of Chaos
The models look great, just great. Or course they come in two Category being Chosen and Unchosen of course

Unchosen
Nasty, S 4 T4 Ws 5, I5, nothing really shakes these guys either. They also get the option of either 2 attacks at S 4, 1 using Initative at S 5(halberds), or S 6(great weapons). Considering their high Ws, they can hit you quite easily and crush what troops you have with relative ease. Defensive wise they aren't lacking either, with heavy armour, the option to take Hw and Shield, giveing them a nice 3+ AS in CC, or with two handed weapons a 5+. They're also toughness 4 which means they can take what you dish out. counter with Honestly the best way to deal with these is to use a hammer and Anvil strategy, Or Tomb Guards and Tomb Scorpians, Killing blow and high strength and toughness. Do not use Ushabti ( PlasmaPuff or other elite players, give me you're ideas on this), for in the past games i've used them, they hardly ever hit.... i know i know 4+ hit, 2+ wound No AS most of the time. But Ushabti don't have ranks or standard, and probably be outnumbered. thus losing to combat resoultion, then next round of combat they hit you back hard.

Chosen
While they are even smaller in number, they fight like twice their number. Because they have two attacks each( basically 2 S6 attacks wit GW, and Champion has 3)! and a 4+ AS normally, so it can turn into a whopping 2+ AS in CC with Hw and Shield. counter with Tomb Guard, Elite vs Elite. You got to pray for those 6s, for Killing Blow will save your life. Do not rely on a Tomb Scorpian tho once again it lacks ranks and out number, even with a flank charge i fear it's The amoutn of attack it's going to get in return.

Magic Banners: Do not worry about the banners. Aside from the warbanner they can get the Banner of the Gods at a whopping 125 pts.. while it's crap. so no worrs about that. They can also get the Banner of Wrath, which is a bound item of power level 4, magic missle. Ain't very devstating to us because well... We can summon.


Marauders of Chaos
While these guys got nothing on Warriors of Chaos they are still a threat to Skellies, because they can fight much better and even fully equppied, cheaper. Do not worry tho they are probably there as cannon fodder, but you have to take of them eventually, but they are easy to take down even in large groups. counter with Bowfire can do it easy, also they can't get marks so a good SSC, should get them packing. Heck a Bone Giant well mae them piss their pants and make them run unless under the stren watch of the general....

Marauder Horsemen
They actually do something, Most commonly equppied with throwing axes and flails, they can do some(but not much) damage on the charge. They are however fast cav, and we need to watch out for those getting out rank bonus robbed is NOT fun. counter with Bow fire, they only have toughness 3,(which compare with the rest of the army, it's nothing) and have a max of 5+ AS against missle. not much considering how many shots we can pepper them with.

Knights of Chaos
These are the most commonly field models in almost any mortal army. Very formidable, S5 with just a HW, very glad that they do not have the option of equipping lances or something like that. Once again there is 2 categories.

Unchosen
Basically they are mounted Chaos Warriors, but with a higher Strength, and faster movement. They do cost more then twice as much. They also have a higher AS, the 2+ commonly found in hvy Cav. counter with SSC, if your best bet, their ld is far too high to try and affect with Casket. You can also use Tomb Guard, but i suspect they would be tied up by Chaos Warriors, so a good SSC shot.

Chosen
These are the nightmares. A unparelled 1+ Armor save for a potentially CORE UNIT!!!. They hit even harder now thanks to addtional attack from being chosen. counter with SSC, no longer will your Tomb Guard come in handy, they can easily kill them now with the Additional dice roll. Bow fire just tickles these guys so don't even try. If allowed, a Bow Giant with a giant bow is also another good thing, Taking out even one Chosen Knight is a big thing, thats 2 less S5 Ws 5 attacks.

Chariots of Chaos
Another Popular choice of chaos players. They are able to cause massive damage, and with 4 toughness 5 wounds with an AS of 3+ they take a while to take down, considering TK lack the S7 troops.. apart from a suicidal king that is...... counter with A expensive option is A TK with DoE, two auto hits and watch the chariot break . A cheaper way is a Tomb Scorpian, these guys can get the job done, sort of... since they wound on 4s, and have killing blow. DO NOT LET THEM CHARGE YOU! d6+1 S5 hits hurts very badly, very very badly.



Khorne

"Crickey! Here on this farmland, we find a Khorne Warrior happily decapitating people for his Blood God. Now Folks, ya have to be careful aroudn them they have these sharp axes you don't want to feel on your necks!"
*Khrone Warrior growls, leaps at the croc hunter, camera goes black*

I'm going to talk about these buggers first and what you will see in this army. I ahve a friend who plays Khorne and he use to rutally massacre me so bad, i cry in my pillow. But after some mad experiments, i've come up with some ways to somewhat, keep our heads on our shoulders.

The Mark of Khrone is a huge advantage over us, like it was built to counter TK. They're frenzied and they add dispel dice. It does not look happy at all.

Warriors of Khorne
Still great models, given a traditional redfor Khorne. Very nice looking when they know what to paint. Still two Category!

Unchosen
Remember these guys? They are in fact even scary now. Because they are a menacing red and they have an extra attack, plus they give dispel dice. So let's sum that up huh? WS 5, with that option of, 3 S4 Attacks with 2 HW, 2 S5 attack with Initiative order, or 2 S6 attacks with GW doesn't look good huh? One minor good point is that their impressive defense does not rise. It's still te same Toughness 4(!) and base AS of 5+, up to 3+. Counter With.... Frenzy is a double edge sword, while it does mean more attack on us, it also means we can control where they move. If we were to throw some expendable troops their way and force them to charge, we can potentially set them up for an very accutrate shot of SSC of a two front attack of flank charges. That being siad, more attacks or not, they can be taken down the same way as unmarked chaos warriors, other word, a sponge unit of skellies, and flanked with Tomb Guard, Tomb Scorpian, or Ushabti. you wan tot think WS that doesn't suck too bad compare to WS 5 and able to hit hard enough.

Chosen
I do not fear these guys. Why? Well i'm most of my fear is already used up by the KNights, but these guys are also a force to be reckon with. These are almost never in number more then ten, because of the fact they are pretty expensive for infantry. However now they have one more attack. Thus they have a base attack of 2 at S 4. Don't make me go over the options again. Counter With.... Think of these as more resistence Chaos Warriors, You can if you perfer to dance circles around them and overall avoid them, or you can throw in the Tomb Guard to do the job, count on a FULL TOMB GUARD, meaning large numbers of at least 20, so you have the ranks and outnumber them because you are going to lose some when you fight them. Hopefully kill off at least 2 you should outnumber them enough to make them run.

Magic Banners: Khorne hardly ever has the extra points for a magic banner, but if they do, chances are it's the old All eggs in one basket, but in this case the eggs in one basket are probably Chosen Knights of Khorne with a Hero/Lord among them and a magic banner, taking these 1+ AS eggs down is very very hard. The magic banner they can get is the Banner of Rage, basically they get to re-roll failed break test(!) so they can stay longer and pummel you and win then next combat and they never lose thier frenzy (!!!!!!), which means they get that +1 attack.. always......

Marauders of Khorne
YAY WE WORSHIP KHORNE! BUT WE CAN'T GET HIS MARK! THUS WE ARE STILL! *GASP* CANNON FODDER! Counter With.... You kidding... these are just men parading around thinking they have the mark. Take them down in whatever effective methods you wish.

Marauder Horsemen of Khorne
They are still the same, there to get that one precious turn of where they absorb arrows and die. Or they flank charge you. Sure they have a different paint job but they have no mark, thus they are the same as always, CAnnon Fodder. Counter With.... Bowfire is good enough. If that feels to dice to you and you want to get rid of them quick, charge them with a Scropian, they will be hard pressed to drive it back and kill it that is they have to pass a ld of 7 which doesn't always fail but more chance then 8.

Knights of Khorne
I'm going to borrow a quote from a somewhat famous knight. "i will shot you, THe greatest nightmare!"

Unchosen
These are just a step down from Chosen knights, strong as always, base attack of 2. Thus they have a min. of 10 attacks At WS5 S5. Thats no champion included either.... Counter With.... Saddly the only guys up to this are Tomb Guards, Tomb Scorpian, and Ushabti. unforunatly those are most likely preoccuipied by other units, so a good bait and accurate shot of SSC if the way to go if not HtH.

Chosen
This is it, the bane of a thousand enemies. They most feared feared Cavlary in the warhammer world.. on par of those viscious Grail Knights. Why? let's see They have a movement of 7 on their steeds, Ws 5, S5, T4, I5, and oh 3 ATTACKS! plus their pratically immune to psychology, because you almost will never beat these guys in combat. oh yeah they also have 1+ AS. Do not even act shocked as one unit of these takes 2-3 units on at a time and win. Thier Champion with 4 attacks, not even heros enjoy a challenge against these guys. Counter With.... This is the time to use the bait and SSC shots to Full affect. You have no other choice, they tear everthingy like they were made of paper, they shrug of Ushabti blades like they were dagger and arrows are like paper airplanes. SSC of anything that give them no AS. DO NOT DO NOT USE you're Tomb Prince with GW for this he will DIE!. Do not Use you Tomb King with DoE he will DIE!

Chariots of Khorne
Yet another very common and unholy terror in a Khorne Army. Apart from the fack that the crew now has two attack and give dispel dice. It's still the same old bone crunching TK destroying chariot it's always been, but now it's an even worse nightmare. However this is one thing the the TOmb king with DoE can and easily take care of.

Nurgle

" <insert witty thing about Nurgle here>"

Mark of Nurgle takes away one of our advantages over Chaos, fear. Thats it, but still it's kinda big, because they get fear too. *shrug*

Warriors of Nurgle
Nurgle is my favorite chaos god, but that just me, the models are a traditional dirty look. Bloated and sometimes looks liek zombies, but mistake them for those brain dead push over and you're dead.

Unchosen
These are more in the Chaos Undivided warriors set. Except we can no longer autobreak them, which makes our life slightly more diffcult. Counter With....
No matter, a good SSc shot or Ushabti Flank charge can do it

Chosen
To tell you the truth, Nurgle MOrtal Armies are not scary at all, if's sort of like fighting a powerful undead army thats all. Thus these guys are a threat, but you know compare to the Mark of Khorne we just went through these are butterflies. Never the less do not under estimate them. Aim for breaking them, not auto break, as in win-combat-by-a-lot kind of break. Counter With.... Go for the usually Flan kcharges, ya know high strength units, *points at Ushabti, Tomb Guard, Tomb Scopian* count Bone Giant out, WS too low.

Magic Banners- The Plague Banner is well against us it's nothing. Because we sort of can get it right back by summoning. Basically we pass toughness test when in base contact with bearer or lose wound no AS. *shrug* whatever.

Marauders of Nurgle
"YEAH WE ALL DECAY AND DIRTY! BUT WE STILL NO GET MARK! THUS WE ARE STILL! *DOUBLE GASP* CANNON FODDER!" Counter With.... Don't make me repeat myself, these guys drop like flies with the proper soldier, ya know bowfire, SSC, autobreak, infamous War Banner hvy Cav.

Marauder Horsemen of Nurgle
Same old same old. Don't let them flank you, they might hurt a little when they charge. Counter With.... good old bow fire, Ushabti is a bit overkill really. But they get the job done, period.

Knights of Nurgle
Woo hoo these guys look cool! and they cause fear! So we can no longer auto break them GASP GASP GASP.

Unchosen
Hmmm, so they are the same as always but we can't autobreak. Hrmmm Counter With.... SSC, or Tomb Scorpian. Of course just Ws that isn't too low and good enough Strength

Chosen
one more attack, still cause fear. Counter With.... yeah i know being kind of no details rigt here. but after Khorne these don't seem like a threat. All you need is Killing Blow. That'll get the job done. So Tomb guard, ranks outnumber or not i dunno, with standard its at least a +4 Combat resolution. plus any you take down with Killing blow.

Chariots of Nurgle
Now these are somewhat scary, because you cannot coutn on that slight chance on Them not charging due to fear. it's awlays D6+1 impact hits. Counter With....
Counter as you counter all chariots. Whatver floats your boat. A good Tk with DoE breaks that thing in seconds.

--------------------------------
More 2morrow
What to expect

-Tzenntch
-Slannesh
-Heros/Lords and some frighting combnations

Good post - looking forward to seeing the 2nd installment.

Thx Rickea, i';ll post the other two forces when i'm confident in knowing how to counter them

Just a small aside( I know, I know, threadcromancy....but it's an undead forum!), killing blow has no effect on chariots as all attacks are resolved against the chassy, it's the same reason why they're immune to poisen. the Scorpion may still do the trick, but don't count on it as a chariot has the same unit size(4) and gets just as many attacks(unless you hit 'em in the rear/flank in which case the steeds can't attack) is just as tough, just as many wounds, and a better armour save.

hey darkestyu, this was great!!!

im waiting for the tzeentch part, because i play it and want to hear the funny stuff, lol.

I just started with TK so Im really lookig forward to the slaanesh part.
i think slaanesh is the most annyoing to play against with TK as autobreak doesnt work since all units are immune to psychology.
So ill hbasically have to fight "normally" with my troops.
Imagein 40 Skellies against 8 Chosen Knights eh........Your vacuum clenaer will be eating a lot of dust from the carpet.

Moving on to talking about Tzeentch. First off we should look at the mark itself.

Lord - level 4 wizard for 140pts

Hero - level 2 wizard for 70pts

Unit - +1 power die for 10 pts

As you can see being against a Tzeentch force has both possitives and negatives.

The positive: Tzeentch armies have none of the resistance to psychology that the other factions possess, meaning that fear will generally have a much larger impact on the game. A good thing from the Undead's standpoint. Also, the mark of hideously expensive, meaning that Tzeentchian armies tend to be rather compact, making outnumbering them easier. Couple that with their vulnerability to fear, and auto breaking becomes a real possibility.

The negative: With all those mages and extra powerdice, facing a Tzeentchian army usually means facing an opposing magic phase the likes of Skaven SAD or Slann led lizardmen. Also, as the champions of Tzeentch are powerfull warriors as well as mages, they are much less vulnerable to standard mage huntiung tactics.

Because of the expesive mark, the armies of the changer usually come in two basic varieties: maruader horde(lots of models for cheap prices) or calvary MSU.

The maruader horde approach centres around large blocks of marauder foot troops(with hand weapon and sheild), generally about 24-25 strong(so able to keep their ranks and outnumber longer, reducing the effectiness of skeleton bowfire), supported by chariots, horsemen, basic knights, and/or smaller maruader blocks with great weapons/flails. A large block of marauders, led by and exalted champion is a scary prospect, as the marauders are easily able to outfight and outnumber most tomb king units, while the exalted champion can make mincmeant out of pretty much anything except perhaps for a tooled up Tomb King. Add in a supporting regement, such as a flanking chariot or horsemen, and skeleton regements are dusting faster than a robot maid with a turbo-charged feather duster. Worse, the exalted gives the regement the muscle it needs to deal with more elite units such as chariots and Ushabti with good success. The answer? Tomb guard are tougher and are less likely to take marauder casualties, thoug with only WS 3 they will struggle to actually stike the champion, so their killing blow will be of questionable use. A flanking unit of horsemen or the ever reliable skull-chucker(with skulls of the foe of course) is probabily your best bet, as the unit will be testing on Ld 8 at best vs the panic test if near the chaos lord(and unlike most chaos armies a Tzeentchian usually does include the lord), or using a sacrificial Tomb scorpion to try and take out the champion before engaging the unit with your main blocks. Always remeber your greatest weapon against the basic leadership of Tzeentch is FEAR. Remember those fear checks.

Most of the support units have already been discussed, take out horsemen and small maruader units with bowfire, chariots and knights with Ushabti, bone giant, and/or skull catapult.

The remaining support units found in both the MSU and marauder horde type are the daemonic airforce of chaos: furies and screamers.

Screamers If facing Tzeentch, exspect to encounter these daemoic sky-sharks. Furies have all the standard strengths of unit fliers, being speed, manouverability, and 360 degree charge arc. They also generate fear(no big deal against TK) are immune to psycholgy themselves(so no fear, terror, or panic for these guys) and have a 5+ daemonic wardsave. With T4 and 2 S4 attacks, these things can make quick mincemeat of carrion so exsect the forces of Tzeentch to rule the skies. These things are a real pain. While TK are immune to being march-blocked, screamers will be able to charge and destroy a skull catapult on T2 with ease. Also, they are perhaps the best mage hunters in the game, with their slashing attack they don't need to be able to actually charge a lone mage, simply pass over him in the movement phase. A unit of 4(the most common unit as 5 is a bit pricy and 3 a bit too fragile) will kill a lich priest on average with a single pass. They can also suicide charge units containing a priest, directing as many attacks as possible at him until either they or he dies. They also excell at screening other units and re-directing charges. They can also delay powerfull units such as ushabti and chariots by attacking their flank, meaning that very few attacks will be directed back at them as they dish out around 6 S4 attacks back. Couple that with their own form of Stubborness(well, daemonic instability, but they won't be running anywhere, they'll stay or they'll die) on Ld 8(or 9 if the chaos lord is near) and they can hord up a unit for a good long time. The worst thing is there is generally very little you can do about them. It takes a great deal of shooting to get rid of them and if you incant a combat unit at them you are generally opening your flank to an advancing enemy unit.

Chaos furies While not a true Tzeentch unit per say, these flying daemons have yet to be discussed(odd as nearly every chaos army outside of Archaon's Horde makes use of them) and are often found supporting the deadly screamers, especially in Tzeentch MSU. Most of the things said about scremaers apply to furies as well. They aren't as tough or get many attacks, but their smaller base size generally makes up for their fewer atacks, plus they have WS 4, and while they may be more fragile at T3 they also cost less than half what the screamers do, which means they come in greater units(generally about 8). While they lack the slashing attack of the screamers, and as such your priests are a bit safer, they can add rear/flank CR bonus due to their larger unit size. Furies are easier to kill with bowfire, but then again, there are more of them. Another unit that's extremely annoying in a capable generals hands and hard to deal with.

But enough getting sidetracked, on to the other standard Tzeentchian army, the calvary MSU. Based around units of knights(both chosen and non-chosen), horsemen, chariots, and flying daemons, this varient is generally harder to deal with. With multiple small formations, this army is diffuclt to hit well with a skull catapult and if both screamers and furies are present, expect you catatpults to be dead in T2, meaning you might get as few as 1 shot with them. Add the unreliablity of scatter weapons to the uncertain 1st turn guess at such small targets and they may well die without killing a single chaos worshipper. Bone giants are probabily a better bet to go with, as this type of army has very little static CR to bear against them. With his horsemen and daemons lich hunting, as well as the possibility of disc mounted champions, your priests will need to be very well protected indeed to survive beyond the 3rd turn. Hard hitters are the way to go against the Tzeentch MSU as he can easily avoid your sponge skeleton blocks until he's ready to deal with them. Chariots, bone giants, and Tomb scorpions are your weapons here, as Ushabti are simply too slow to be able to deal with such speed. The enemy general may simply use his speed to stay beyind your reach , blasting your units to weaken them while his daemons and fast cavary kill off your priests. As always with a Tzeentch army however, a few key failed fear tests will ruin his day.

Things to look out for

Massed magic: While at first glance the lore of change is nothing to write home about, remeber the words of gran warlord Adrian Wood, "Everything counts in large amounts!" Tzeentchian armies can direct a horrible barrage of spellfire at your army. While your skeletons and tomb guard can soak up the damage, your Ushabti and chariots really can't. Summoning can only accomplish so much after all. A single good blue fire can cripple or destoy a small unit of chariots or Ushabti. Indigo fire can slaughter a skeleton unit with the barrage of S2 hits followed by the attacks of the horrors it spawns, as well as hold up a skull catapult as the flame is likely to kill at least one crew member, and as such spawn a horror into combat with it. Violet fire is a danger to priest caught outside the generals leadership, and massed red fire can take down the toughest targets over time. Just thank the desert gods that TK's are immune to green fire, as a large block of Tomb guard attacking themselves and lobbing each others heads off with killing blow doesn't bear dwelling on.

Tzeenthian assassins: Tzeentch armies can field some frighteningly effective surgical strike characters. Some examples of the scarier/more common ones are:

Chaos Lord, mark of Tzeentch, great weapon, shield, staff of change, gaze of the gods, on disc of Tzeentch.
This guy is a TK's worst nightmare. With his disc granting him good manouverability and line of sight for his spells, as well as making him immune to fear. He has 5 S7 attacks at WS 8, meaning he hits everything in the TK army on 3's and can smash through chariots with a single hit and wound even mummies and Tomb Scorpions on 2's. With a potential 3+ armour save and 4+ ward save, as well as the added protection of his disc, he's pretty resistant to missle and magic missle fire, though a lucky catapult shot may still get him, but considering he's usually accompanied by the chaos airforce(screamers and furies) I wouldn't count of it. In fact the only thing he can't take on and slaughter is a tooled up TK. Add in his staff's ability to let him re-roll any/all of his casting or dispeling dice and he's a magical force to be rekoned with right up there with a high generation Slann. Personally I'd rather face a Lord of Chage than this guy and he's cheaper to boot! Kiss any priests outside of a forrest or a unit goodbye, as he can easily move so that the priest is the closest target, by simply flying next to him and unleashing his magical might. If in a light enough unit he'll simply charge in and slay him with his greatweapon. Even if he breaks his 3d6 flee will probabily get him out of hards way, but breaking him is hardly guarenteed. the secret to dealing with him is simple. Kill the disc at all costs. The disc makes him immune to fear(and thus auto-breaking). The best way of doing this is probabily with a unit of chariots led by a tomb prince. Charge into the Disc-rider and challenge him with the prince. The impact hits of the chariots will strike the disc, hopefully weakening it. In the challenge have the prince direct all of his attacks at it as well. While the prince may well die(actually, change that to probabily), he'll not die in vain as a CR of 5(3 wounds on the disc + standard+outnumber) will probabily autobreak the lord unless he wounds the prince with all of his attacks. With his disc dead he'll flee a much easier to catch 2d6 inches and the chariots will run him down. As he'll be worth nearly 600 Vps after death of the enemy genreal is factored in, it a sacrifice well made.

Exalted champion of Tzeentch with greatweapon/flail, shield, golden eye of Tzeetch, riding in Tzeentchian chariot

A true combat monster. He may well be also equiped with a spell familiar to increase the odds of him getting orange fire(allows him to re-roll all failed to hit, wound, armour and wardsave rolls). Again he possesses the chariot/undead construct S7 and with his WS 7 he'll also be hitting on 3's. Add that to the devistating charge of a chaos chariot and you're looking at a serious threat to your chariots, ushabti, and even bone giant, as well as any lighter foe. He also makes his chariot US 5, so he's able to break you flanks and gain the CR bonus. The champion has a 2+ armour save(1+ with his sheild) and his talisman gives both him and his chariot a 3+ wardsave VS shooting, making him extremely difficult to get rid of with bow fire, the vengence incantation, and catapult shots. His long charge range makes for assaulting him a difficult prospect as well unless you manage to urgency a strong combat unit into him. He's vulnerable to fear however so he may leave himself stranded in front of you. The best way of dealing with him is tomb scorpions, a charging bone giant, or the above mentioned prince/chariot combo(just make sure to challenge!).

fighting the forces of The Changer is seldom easy. Protect your priests, make sure you charge, respect the Tzeentchian airforce, and don't let him get on your flanks!

One thing that this anti-Chaos section of the tactics forum really needs is advice on how to beat the worst and most overpowered of all war machines...

The HELLCANNON!

I have at least 3 Chaos players at the local store (sadly, its Tzeentch Chaos, Khorne Chaos, Khorne Chaos, O + G, O + G, Empire, Empire, Dwarves, and then myself, as TK/Lizardmen, and maybe a Skaven or Brettonians in there occasionally) and I have yet to see a 2k list without one of these monstrosities.

Both my TK and Lizardmen are at a loss as to how to deal with them. Last game I nearly managed to kill off the crew with 10 Scouting Skinks as my Lizardmen, killed 2 out of three , so close. Hellcannon proceeded to chase my Skinks down that flank to end up in combat with my Saurus and 4th Gen Slann, finally breaking that unit in the final turn for the lose. And that was with a lot of luck in terms of the shooting on my part.

I realize it takes 2 Rare slots and is about 250-300 points or so, but this doesn't seem to justify the sheer power of it. ..

As far as I can tell it....

1. Counts as a stone thrower using the small template, except everything under the template takes a S 6 (or 7, or 8 , I don't recall offhand) hit, with partial models covered hit on a 4+ as normal.

2. Then gets a big template that causes a panic check to anything touched by it on the same location.

3. Gets to reroll its scatter die to determine what it hits after guesses.

4. In close combat it has 5 attacks at WS 4 and S 6, not including crew.

5. During the Chaos player's shooting phase it gets a flame template's worth of S 6 hits in lieu of its normal shot if it wants.

6. It can use said flame template if it is in close combat during the Chaos player's shooting phase and still gets to make all its regular attacks in the following CC phase.

7. It can take 50 points of Daemonic gifts if it wants.

8. It is a Daemon so it gets a 5+ Ward save, but it is also a war machine so it has T 7 and is immune to poison.

9. It is totally unaffected by loss of crew, even with 1 crew member left it still moves and shoots at exactly the same rate. And of course, said crew benefit from the war machine rules that all shooting hits the machine on a 1-4 and a crew member on a 5-6, which as we all know basically works like a 3+ ward save for the crew.

I don't even know if it has an armour save as with its number of attacks and T 7 I have never had anything successfully wound it.

And its disadvantages include:

1. It is some sort of special version of Frenzied where it rolls 2d6 at the end of the Chaos player's declare charges phase and if there is an enemy unit within that distance it must charge it.

2. If all the crew are dead it charges the closest unit regardless of affiliation.

Could anyone confirm or deny any of these things? In general #3, #6 and #9 seem the most unfair, I have asked the Chaos players to prove some of the above rules and they seem to be legit as far as I could read at the time....


Any advice anyone could give me on this?

I'm afraid that those rules are completly right and IIRC it's str 10 but it can't move and shoot though i think.I used it twice in my Chaos days and sadly,it charged my own units every time .It does have it's own misfire chart wich is alot worse then the normal.I think the best way to deal with it is shooting and magick,'cuz in CC it's rather hard as nails and causes terror so you're not even sure you're unit will pass the tests...

Army builder says 4 attacks at S6 in close combat. Shooting, small blast template = S10 hits with D6 wounds. It can only use it's flame attack in the shooting phase if it's in combat. 3+ AS, 5+ Daemonic Ward. A real beast. However, the crew are only toughness 4 with a 5+ AS. What about carrion or swarms and just target the crew? It's worth way more than SSCs though and they stand a chance at knocking it down esp with 2x shots a turn.

T 7 with a 3+ AS and a 5+ ward save.....

I think that makes this stupid war machine the toughest thing in the entire Warhammer world.....

Good to know about the flame template attack though I still think it is stupid that it can do it in addition to its regular attacks in CC. Trolls can't vomit and attack in the same turn!

S 10 shot... no wonder I didn't remember because even S 6 or 7 will kill pretty much every model I own aside from my Slann on a 2+

Anyways, I will try my 3 Terradons next time against the crew....they will all be slaughtered but it will be for a noble cause.... unless of course they are Tzeentched to death first.

Ya, I forgot it causes Terror. My Terradons will never reach it....

Will try the SSC or a Scorpion when using my TK however if I waste a couple of SSC shots on it what the heck am I going to use to kill the Chosen Knights

Hellcannons are affected if all the crew are lost: I don't think that it can fire it's stone thrower anymore, and it moves 2D6 towards the closest enemy (friend or foe) and attacks them. Take advantage of this rule, the Hellcannon without crew can hurt your opponent's own army.
ICFB units and Carrion aren't always good for killing the Hellcannon war machine. Remember they're WS4 T4 AS5+ dwarves, and you will have to rely on killing the crew in the first turn or the Hellcannon will miserably crush you. I've faced the Hellcannon quite a few times, as my friend often brings it to battle. It's 5" blast template Panic attack has no effect on TK, which is nice. I usually use my SSC to take it/it's crew down. I actually once used DoW duelists with pistols to get close to it, shoot a volley at it, flee when it charges, rally, and repeat. I actually ended up destoying the entire Hellcannon and crew by doing that!
For Lizardmen, Scout Skinks with blowpipes. or Chameleon Skinks are ideal. Get within 12" of the Hellcannon and shoot at it. Chances are you will eventually take down the crew. I'm not sure if the Hellcannon need LoS to move 2D6" towards a unit, but if he gets too close and charges you can flee, rally, and keep shooting. When all the crew are down, quickly move your Skinks away, and the Hellcannon will probably start moving towards a Chaos unit.

And it has 6 wounds . It can't flame attack and attack normally in CC, it can however use it's flame attack in one phase and attack normally in the next phase.

For TK, go for the SSC to shoot the chosen and whittle their numbers, let carion, swarms and TS take care of Hellcannon. Bear in mind that 270 points of our warmachine hunters equates to a hell of a lot. 3x TS = 275, 5 Swarms = 225, 10 Carrion = 240pts. Just interesting to compare, I'm not suggesting that 10 carrion would do very well against a Hellcannon. If I wanted it dead fast, I'd use three carrion to threaten it in the first turn and in the second rely on ICFB ideally combine charging with 2 swarms and a TS.

Killing the crew quickly with Skirmishing units is actually what I tried in the above example and sadly it ended up losing me the game

I'm afraid you might have been beating the Hellcannon using these tactics due to a misunderstanding in the rules Namely, you can't shoot on the turn you rally unless you are fast cav and you just fled from a charge.

I shot with 10 Skinks, killed 2 crew. Next turn the Hellcannon rolled 2d6 and charged me. I fled, then rallied. Hellcannon rolled 2d6 on its turn again and charged me again, resulting in another flee.

Rallied again on my turn, Hellcannon rolled 2d6 and found my Slann's unit within range, charging it and winning every subsequent combat until it broke me.

I know the rule that you can't shoot when you rally, and I used it in the game which I mentioned. I have to say though that pistols killing the Hellcannon itself was just lucky for me.
The game you mentioned seemed rather successful in dealing with the Hellcannon, except that your Skinks (did you make them Scouts?) were positioned so when they fled, they led the Hellcannon toward your army. Rather, lead the Hellcannon away. I don't think the Hellcannon can shoot if it makes the 2D6 charge, so each turn it moves towards your Skinks is a turn which less than 100pts of your troops stop a 250pt war machine of doing anything significant. This you did in your game, you must have distracted the Hellcannon for a few turns. Skinks have great movement: base 6", so when you move in, stay about 12" away from the Hellcannon, so you can shoot it and it only has a 1/36 chance of catching you (in other words, don't flee when 12" away). Rather, as it moves towards you, keep your distance by moving 6" back each turn while firing. If it gets to close, then you should flee.

I was under in the impression that the Hellcannon rolled 2d6 to determine the distance within which it had to charge, so if your unit is within that distance, it must charge you, and if it is not then it can remain where it is and shoot the main gun. So if it has to charge you, it is already within range and so you must choose a flee reaction in order to avoid being put in combat

And my Skinks had Javelins, so it was an 8'' range not 12'' unfortunately

Whoops, my bad. But my tactic is still pretty effective: if it doesn't charge, you get the chance to shoot at it again, if it does charge, it doesn't get to shoot that turn. It's really your choice which you would rather do: endure the Hellcannon barrage to try to kill the crew, or distract it to prevent it from firing.
Javelins and Blowpipes are both effective in this case: it just depends if you want to distract the Hellcannon or shoot at it.

Recently, my local Tzeentch player managed to get his hands on a Lord on Chaos Dragon (I blame Ebay).

After obliterating me (I killed his spawn and 2 Chosen Knights at the cost of my entire army, which is above average for my battles vs. him), he let me write down what he takes so I could ask some advice.

He brings:

Lord of Tzeentch on Chaos Dragon (3+ ward vs. all missiles for himself and his mount, I believe that is the Golden Eye of Tzeentch?)

Exalted Champion of Tzeetch (Gaze of the Gods, Sword of Might, I think that is S6 and a 4+ ward?)

6 Chosen Knights of Tzeentch (full command and War Banner).

19 Chosen Warriors of Tzeetch (Banner of Ward Save Bound Spell for the whole unit)

Chariot of Tzeetch

Spawn of Tzeetch

This is in 2k points, and honestly I have no idea what I can do to defeat it.

Any ideas? I tried flanking his Chosen Knights with Ushabti but the Ushabti lost, my Tomb King is no match for his character on Dragon, I can't hit it with the Catapult (keeps scattering), and if I did he would likely save the wounds.

Also, with the Dragon present I have no time to flank the Warriors (I HAVE to flank them, my Chariots AND Heavy Horsemen charged them this game and did 0 wounds, not to mention the character in the front rank), plus the Chariot and Spawn are guarding the flanks of the Warriors.

This is outside of his magical superiority over me (he has enough dispel dice to stop most stuff, and he has WAY more power die, though the Tzeentch spells are not so threatening as his Close Combat prowess).

just fought the new demon army and got a very lucky win. i took 2 catapults and 2 units of x 20 archers(1 w lp) for a very shooty army. also defended a corner of the board with river surrounding it. i had 2 units of 3 carrions and swarm for march intradiction against him. and guarding the 2 catapults are 2 tp, tg with lhp,and ubshati.

he had 2 chaos spawns, 3 units of chaos warriors(around 17 each, 2 had lvl 2 casters), 10 knights of khorne and a demon prince who's a lvl 4 caster.

so i think i did everything i can against him. the swarm popped up against one of the warriors and slowed him. the carrions march intradicted so none of his warriors and knights ever reached my corner. but the frustrating thing was that i really couldn't do much even with this army that was suppose to counter his! my archers really did not kill any warriors. the catapults killed about 7 knights, a lvl 2 mage and a few warriors but that's it.

only reason i won is because he decided to fly his demon prince into my corner and cast cleansing flare, but the spell didn't go through. i had my 2 tps join the tg and used the ior to reform and charge his demon prince. even with my best unit with 2 tps i only did 1 wound(damn that 4+ward save). only reason i won is because he rolled a 12 on a failed leadership test when i won combat, he only needed to roll a 9.

i'm kind of at a loss after this combat. i took what i thought would be the best troops against his tough army but i only won with a very lucky failed leadership test on round 6. i was very lucky that none of the catapults blew up, but they just aren't that dependable even though chaos warriors don't get a save vs them. what other troops can i take vs his army?

Just lots of high strength attacks. A king with Flail of Skulls, TG for killing blow, Ushabti and BG in the flanks after a sponge takes the initial damage. That would be my advice. I wouldn't bother with archer too much as they're never really going to get through much with a decent AS. Use them to pick off fast moving, lightly armoured units or to redirect charges.