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Pages: (2) 1 [2]  ( Go to first unread post )

 New Vc Book!
BONEbreaker
Posted: Jan 14 2012, 09:20 PM


Skeleton Horseman
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Group: Nehekharan
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Joined: 29-May 11



read the whole book at my local non-GW store (I've got principles people).

I hate my life...everything is better, they took everything away from us. the 6+ regen, the MWBD, marching, raising...why would someone play TK with this out there??????

I mean competitively, I choose armies based on models, but this is ridiculous...the author of the TK should be public executed!


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How does failing a terror test make me a bad strategist?

Love Warhammer fantasy!

I play:
Dwarf's since 93
Tomb Kings since 02
wood elves since 05
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Batu
Posted: Jan 15 2012, 11:15 PM


A bug in the Swarm
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Group: Nehekharan
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Joined: 27-December 05



Lol.

Funny, same people are sobbing the same story. Maybe you and the "Cheer Leaders of Whine" can now sell your armies so we do not have to listen to how EVERY army is superior and how badly you play.

Gets so tiresome to keep reading the same few ppl saying how horrible this army is, how terrible they play when many players on this forum who do well with it and try to point out how you can win.

If you truly think the TK book is bad, then quit whining and quit playing it.
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Hivetyrant25
Posted: Jan 16 2012, 12:04 AM


Sphinx Captain
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I think the VC have gotten a pretty substantial nerf on what they had last edition.

They can't heavily rely on Ghoul whoring in their lists to win as the ghouls are now 10 points each! Grave Guard have also lost their magical attacks and are now pretty much on par with TG. The Macabre spell has been nerfed as well because it's pretty much like ours in that they can't use it to charge. Their skeletons are 1 point more than ours but they can march (certain occasions) and take spears for free (who cares about the latter, I mean seriously). They are also very much harder to heal as their main line for healing is Invocation which is now their sig and their attribute only heals characters or multi-wound creatures (big deal but sometimes healing troops is better). They also don't have access to their damn CoC(k) so all I have to say about that is "###### YOU VAMPIRES HEHEHEHEHEHE."

Pluses I have seen from skimming the new stuff is that Krell can get HKB on all his attacks when in a challenge IF Kemmler is in the same unit as him. Kemmler himself is hard to kill as he has a rule where he can either fly or become ethereal, he can pick and choose one each turn. This alone makes Kemmler a very survivable wizard and he's not too shabby in CC either with his other magical items. It may be worth it to take both Krell and Kemmler in the same army. Now Strigoi vampires have a different entry as "Ghoul Kings" and are by far more ferocious in CC but aren't very good at magic. So now there can be entire armies based on Crypt Ghouls without having a single "non-ghoul" in them. Black Knights are amazing IMHO but are pretty pricey but hey they have a 2+ save biggrin.gif I also love the new wight king model and the new black knights. This allows me to finally create my barrow army without much fuss. Speaking of Black Knights, their other option in the kit, the Hex Wraiths, are pretty good as they can move through any unit so long as they end their move 1" away from the unit they moved through. They can choose an unengaged enemy unit they've moved through and that unit take hits equal to the amount of Hex Wraiths in the unit. They are also ethereal and their attacks have Flaming and they also Ignore armour saves.

On a side note one of their magic items is the Book of Arkhan which makes almost no sense to me o.O

@Batu: most people are complaining (myself included) when they talk about how terrible our book is in 8th edition. If you want to hear whining go here


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Brendan Fraser can't save you now!

Cruddace: 2 1/2 Strikes; come on man try it again, I dare you!
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Pox
Posted: Jan 16 2012, 04:04 AM


A bug in the Swarm
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Group: Nehekharan
Posts: 31
Member No.: 4,785
Joined: 9-January 12



Your all right the Vamps are AMAZING in their new book - lets look at some of the pluses:

- Really Cheap Core units!
- Hard to kill monsters, some of which can fly!
- access to a whole host of buff spells to make their core units even BETTER!
- tough melee characters that even if they die can hurt you in return
- innate synergy between characters and the units they are in that work even without the fickle winds of magic.
- The ability to take lore of light to blast away the silly undead/deamon armies.
- access to some really nasty LD schenanigans that help them kill people even on the other end of the board.
-Their lore attribute lets them heal stuff...
- A really impressive shooting phase....and units of chariots for core that have loads of impact hits...and stone throwers that make armies run away on turn1.

oh seems i have been talking about Tomb Kings all along after all.

not overtly impressed with the VC book, it really heavily on the winds of magic, has no shooting at all, and the monsters are certainly a lot easier to kill then ours, they don't have access to units of chariots (And we all know how good those are!) and the etherial stuff cannot flee a charge so we can grind them away on combat res alone or with our butt ton of magical shooting (casket, stalkers, etc.) or a character with a magical weapon.

sure they can use a SPELL to get re-roll to hit for a turn - we have a necrotect.

etc, etc, etc - they are VERY magic depended - so hitting them in the magic phase and shooting their units (like bats) down in the first couple of turns as they shamble forwards is just gravy.
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Darkblossom
Posted: Jan 16 2012, 12:21 PM


A bug in the Swarm
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Group: Nehekharan
Posts: 6
Member No.: 3,418
Joined: 5-April 11



QUOTE

- Really Cheap Core units!
- Hard to kill monsters, some of which can fly!
- access to a whole host of buff spells to make their core units even BETTER!
- tough melee characters that even if they die can hurt you in return
- innate synergy between characters and the units they are in that work even without the fickle winds of magic.
- The ability to take lore of light to blast away the silly undead/deamon armies.
- access to some really nasty LD schenanigans that help them kill people even on the other end of the board.
-Their lore attribute lets them heal stuff...
- A really impressive shooting phase....and units of chariots for core that have loads of impact hits...and stone throwers that make armies run away on turn1.


1) realy cheap core units : zombies are much cheaper and their skeletons are equally prized when taking LA and shield. They can even take a spear for free. So vampire counts spear skelies are even cheaper than ours ...
2) Their monster has 6 wounds of T6, can fly and can march. Vampire counts have also flying monstrous infantry with 4 S5 attacks each (and are cheaper than Ushabti's)
3) The forbidden lore Vampire power still exists, so light/beasts/ ... can also by used by them
4) Graveguard with HA and GW is cheaper than Tomb Guard with LA en halberd
5) A march buble around the general
6) Vampire characters have the possibility to heal WITHOUT magic (the Hunger rule)
7) And most important change : THEIR ARMY DOES NOT CRUMBLE WHEN THE GENERAL DIES !!

All in all a very good book. Poor Tomb Kings.
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Bad Mojo
Posted: Jan 16 2012, 02:53 PM


Tomb Captain
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Group: Faithful
Posts: 446
Member No.: 2,415
Joined: 5-August 08



QUOTE (Pox @ Jan 16 2012, 09:04 AM)
Your all right the Vamps are AMAZING in their new book - lets look at some of the pluses:

- Really Cheap Core units!
- Hard to kill monsters, some of which can fly!
- access to a whole host of buff spells to make their core units even BETTER!
- tough melee characters that even if they die can hurt you in return
- innate synergy between characters and the units they are in that work even without the fickle winds of magic.
- The ability to take lore of light to blast away the silly undead/deamon armies.
- access to some really nasty LD schenanigans that help them kill people even on the other end of the board.
-Their lore attribute lets them heal stuff...
- A really impressive shooting phase....and units of chariots for core that have loads of impact hits...and stone throwers that make armies run away on turn1.

oh seems i have been talking about Tomb Kings all along after all.

not overtly impressed with the VC book, it really heavily on the winds of magic, has no shooting at all, and the monsters are certainly a lot easier to kill then ours, they don't have access to units of chariots (And we all know how good those are!) and the etherial stuff cannot flee a charge so we can grind them away on combat res alone or with our butt ton of magical shooting (casket, stalkers, etc.) or a character with a magical weapon.

sure they can use a SPELL to get re-roll to hit for a turn - we have a necrotect.

etc, etc, etc - they are VERY magic depended - so hitting them in the magic phase and shooting their units (like bats) down in the first couple of turns as they shamble forwards is just gravy.

@ Pox
1. Really cheap core. Zombies are even cheaper and raise faster too! They have tarpits. We don't. Once you add a character, it doubles the points of the unit and the character becomes the focus of being killed. However, we do have pricey chariots (as opposed to the old 40 point ones). The plus side for us are the skeletal archers.
2. Monsters. The Terrorgheist is costed the same as a Necrosphinx. The difference is that the Terrorgheist will kill the Necrosphinx on the first turn after marching 20" and using Death Shriek (average 7+6 - LD8). The Terrorgheist is easier to heal as well. They also have flying Vargheists. On the flip side, the War Sphinx is probably our monster and best between the books (aside from the Terrorgheist). It's too bad the War Sphinx suffers from being in the TK book.
3. Spell access. We both have death magic. We get Light magic which is very good. They get Shadow, which is also very good. They also have Forbidden Lore. The difference though is spell access. Their general needs to have Vampire Lore. Our highest wizard needs to have Nehekara. That's not a fair trade.
4. TK characters and the Curse. Our characters pale in comparison to what they get. Ethereals can be unkillable without magic weapons. Vampires have WS6 and an extra attack, plus access armor. The difference is 5 points between books. MWBD and silly mount rules distinguish our guys.
5. Innate Synergy. I agree MWBD is good for characters in units. However, there is little synergy across the board amongst units compared to VC. Specifically, we cannot march.
6. Lore of Light versus undead/daemons. That is true if you knew your upcoming matchup. It's not as useful in a tournament list.
7. LD shenanigans. Agree.
8. Lore Attribute. I completely disagree. We have 4 augments, 3 of which can affect all units, of which only 2 can be cast on units in combat. VC's default spell does the same thing but heals more.
9. Shooting - I agree except I've lost many games to the Terrorgheist screaming on Turn 1. Two catapults and Righteous Smiting are needed.

TK still has its distinct character as a shooting and monster heavy list. However, the new VC book would likely roll right over a TK list on average (excluding special characters). We don't like Ghouls or Crypt Horrors (poison). We don't like our monsters fighting ethereals (no magical attacks). We don't like LD10 vampire lords. We don't like 60 man zombie units as tarpits. We certainly do not like VC healing.

VC wouldn't like our shooting. An all monster list could give them problems if they went zombie heavy and didn't take ghouls or crypt horrors. If we knew VC was our opponent, we could definitely win with a gunline spam Light list.

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Pox
  Posted: Jan 16 2012, 06:23 PM


A bug in the Swarm
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Group: Nehekharan
Posts: 31
Member No.: 4,785
Joined: 9-January 12



ah bless people still think we are hard done by...

QUOTE
1) realy cheap core units : zombies are much cheaper and their skeletons are equally prized when taking LA and shield. They can even take a spear for free. So vampire counts spear skelies are even cheaper than ours ...
2) Their monster has 6 wounds of T6, can fly and can march. Vampire counts have also flying monstrous infantry with 4 S5 attacks each (and are cheaper than Ushabti's)
3) The forbidden lore Vampire power still exists, so light/beasts/ ... can also by used by them
4) Graveguard with HA and GW is cheaper than Tomb Guard with LA en halberd
5) A march buble around the general
6) Vampire characters have the possibility to heal WITHOUT magic (the Hunger rule)
7) And most important change : THEIR ARMY DOES NOT CRUMBLE WHEN THE GENERAL DIES !!

All in all a very good book. Poor Tomb Kings.


1 - zombies are WS1, always strike last - not exactly on par with our skellies are they? Their 5pt skellies ARE cheaper then our shield/spear 6pt ones but NOT more expensive then out 4pt basic skellies (which we can prob all agree is better then a zombie by far!) Their skellies can never be augmented to have a better WS then 2, we can raise ours to WS5/6 which significantly makes them perform better with innate synergy.

2 - T6 6 wounds is still cannon fodder - just like our monsters - as not going to get into combat turn 1. Marching just gets it closer to the enemy who might then charge it and at T6 are much more likely not to need 6's to wound it AND it does not deduct -1 wound from crumbling due to being a construct. This in general makes it easier to kill (for a wider selection of units from all armies, swordmasters, blackguard, temple guard etc ) including other warmachines like stonethrowers, bolt throwers etc. 1 wound for +2 toughness and some armour is not a good trade off! so it can march - woop de woo.

3 - yup forbidden lore, cool - beans. We can also use light (which they can't even with forbidden lore) and death to augment our stuff. They certainly have access to more lores/combos but again it is ALL magic orientated and removes power from their other vampire spells like raising stuff up!

4 - yes GC with great weapon is cheaper then tooled up TG with Halberd. Again those GC are WS3 will be going last and need spell synergy to make them shine. We can just chuck a prince in for WS5 and then go first and start causing pain reliably. I'm sure this one is being discussed elsewhere.

5 - They NEED to march not having any shooting to speak of. we CAN shoot and most of the time don't NEED to march to get close as they enemy will want to close with us - so whats the problem?

6 - that's like saying the necrosphinx is actually good at killing monsters as has a 1 in 6 chance of getting heroic killing blow off! nice touch but not exactly reliable now is it!

7 - yup army still crumbles, but does not crumble each other turn if they have another necromancer/vamp with the lore of vamps - so that nice forbidden lore dude does not count. But then look they can't use their generals LD when they do get by the crumble because he is DEAD, and their BSB is going to be a lot less effective as well at stopping crumble, oh and no in-build rule helping constructs live - oh and all their stuff has a much, much lower ld (skellies 2 if i remember correctly) so they will lose MORE to their crumble then we do.

Not seeing how we suffer here? people still have new book syndrome where the latest thing must be the best thing since sliced bread?

QUOTE
@ Pox
1. Really cheap core. Zombies are even cheaper and raise faster too! They have tarpits. We don't. Once you add a character, it doubles the points of the unit and the character becomes the focus of being killed. However, we do have pricey chariots (as opposed to the old 40 point ones). The plus side for us are the skeletal archers.
2. Monsters. The Terrorgheist is costed the same as a Necrosphinx. The difference is that the Terrorgheist will kill the Necrosphinx on the first turn after marching 20" and using Death Shriek (average 7+6 - LD8). The Terrorgheist is easier to heal as well. They also have flying Vargheists. On the flip side, the War Sphinx is probably our monster and best between the books (aside from the Terrorgheist). It's too bad the War Sphinx suffers from being in the TK book.
3. Spell access. We both have death magic. We get Light magic which is very good. They get Shadow, which is also very good. They also have Forbidden Lore. The difference though is spell access. Their general needs to have Vampire Lore. Our highest wizard needs to have Nehekara. That's not a fair trade.
4. TK characters and the Curse. Our characters pale in comparison to what they get. Ethereals can be unkillable without magic weapons. Vampires have WS6 and an extra attack, plus access armor. The difference is 5 points between books. MWBD and silly mount rules distinguish our guys.
5. Innate Synergy. I agree MWBD is good for characters in units. However, there is little synergy across the board amongst units compared to VC. Specifically, we cannot march.
6. Lore of Light versus undead/daemons. That is true if you knew your upcoming matchup. It's not as useful in a tournament list.
7. LD shenanigans. Agree.
8. Lore Attribute. I completely disagree. We have 4 augments, 3 of which can affect all units, of which only 2 can be cast on units in combat. VC's default spell does the same thing but heals more.
9. Shooting - I agree except I've lost many games to the Terrorgheist screaming on Turn 1. Two catapults and Righteous Smiting are needed.


1 - zombies are only 1 pt cheaper, do indeed raise quicker, but prob to make up for the fact that they are WS1 and have always strike last. Hitting most things on 5's and will lose combat res, BADLY - meaning bigger crumbles. That is without any character in the unit for the skellies. With a character in the skellies they will begin to get better (hitting most enemies on 3's and being hit in return on 4's) whilst the Zombies also need a character or that "tar pit" will die rather quickly indeed! (hate to see what a horde of zombies would do to it!) to help raise them up - assuming the winds of magic are favourable. for +15pts our chariots now do D6 impact hits instead of D3 that is much, much, MUCH better! especially to things like high elves with ASF, high Init units etc. Which any of the VC core units will very much struggle with.

2 - can you still death shriek after marching as it is a shooting attack? Sure terrorgeist could kill a necro - but put both infront of a unit of sword masters or black guard, greatswords, bolt throwers etc i know which one will die first.

3- so your saying the vamp lore is better then the nehekara lore? and yes a larger access to other lores but then in return if they do that are much more susceptible to their crumble problem as no General to use his LD and lower LD units, and no -1 wd for being a construct.

4 - not seeing any evidence into how our characters pale into insignificance against the vamps? so we can augment our entire unit we are in, and they get an extra attack but WS 2 skellies - woot. Now can't remember how many wounds a standard vamp has but might also be less then a prince. Etherial units can be killed on combat res alone. No vamp can be made etherial and a magic weapon will start killing them if you are scared. Casket drops hex wraiths along with Stalkers. Not getting why people are so hung up on the whole no marching thing, it's not like we need to get anywhere quickly with TK's with out shooting and EBTS to get rear charges off.

5. All i am hearing is Marching. Where is the other synergy? cos when an Ogre army is bellowing straight down the table at you - do you really want to march or have WS6?

6- light is not usefull? timewarp - extra attack and always strike first!
Ws 10 In10 buff! ability to stop cannons shooting at a warsphinx on a 4+, a further -1 to hit skellies in combat against opponents that might need 5's anyway to take it to 6!, not too shabby in a tournament setting considering!

8 - yup but they can only cast that spell once.

9 - again can you march and shoot? and why is the terrorgeist proving such a problem? an empire army would just be laughing! since most people deploy in the generals LD bubble anyway.

100% think we have not been shafted by any way with the VC book it does things differently, and is much more about attrition and numbers then us, but where they rear charge with a summoned unit of zombies we have heavy cav that simply smash into you. In essence we have enough tricks that used effectively we should have no problems.
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OrneryRooster
Posted: Jan 16 2012, 07:09 PM


Skeleton Horseman
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Group: Nehekharan
Posts: 130
Member No.: 1,293
Joined: 30-August 06



QUOTE (Pox @ Jan 16 2012, 11:23 PM)

4 -  yes GC with great weapon is cheaper then tooled up TG with Halberd. Again those GC are WS3 will be going last and need spell synergy to make them shine. We can just chuck a prince in for WS5 and then go first and start causing pain reliably. I'm sure this one is being discussed elsewhere.


It sure is! wink.gif


--------------------
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
-General Sir Charles Napier

The fox knows many tricks; the hedgehog one good one.
-Archilochus
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