Timewarp Charge Distance, does double movement apply to charging?

The fact that flying 10" is explicitly NOT a normal move (as per the Fly rules) seems to clinch it for me.

/shrug

I'll add a little completely unprovable-ness to this:

Maybe the reason they changed fly moves from 20" to 10" + March in this edition was to make them consistent with the rules that M cannot be greater than 10.

Fly is not a "normal move", but nowhere in what you quoted does it say that, in fact its very dodgy about what a "normal move" is. But more to the point, it doesnt say that they "use their fly move" or "use their normal move", it says they "can move or charge normally...or instead choose to fly (use their fly move)".

move normally =/= normal move
move normally = move as a unit without the special rule we're discussing (fly) would move (using its movement characteristic, without swiftstride, etc)

If it did, then you couldnt wheel, reform, back up, charge, etc with a flying model (depending on your interpretation of basic move vs normal move, as discussed in the Ksar's thread).

So even though it might excplicitly state that fly isnt a normal move, it doesnt explicity say the only things affected by Timewarp are normal moves (aside from random movement), it says all movement special rules are able to move twice what they normally (as in without bironas cast on them) move. If interpreted that way (and its a fairly normal interpretation, no re-defining terms) the wording doesnt stop Timewarp from helping flyers.

I am not certain how you read the Movement rules as abnormal.

There are special movement rules that, by their special nature are not normal, but there is a whole section defining how to move models without special rules.

Is Strider a special movement rule?

Its not a question of it being a special rule or not, its a question of grammar. To "do something normally" can mean do it without anything special added. So when a model with fly can choose to "move normally" it chooses to move without fly added, that doesn't mean that fly isnt a movement special rule and that it still isnt doubled just like random movement, but it means they have the choice to use the rules that dont include "fly" instead.

Yes...and no. Not in the way that you think you mean it. There are indeed movement special rules. But when something in those special rules says "You can use the special rule, or you can move normally" it is NOT saying the same thing as "you can use the special rule, or make a normal move."

When you do something "normally", you do it without whatever special circumstance it is youre talking about in that context. When you "move normally", in that quote, you move without the special rules conferred by fly. So creatures with fly can choose to move via their special rule, or to not do so. It is NOT using a defined warhammer term called "normal move" (theres no such thing! Or at least its debatable). Its just saying whatever the special circumstances are in this situation (being able to move 10' instead of movement value, move over other units, swiftstride, etc) you can CHOOSE not to use. Just because you can choose not to use the rules for fly, doesnt mean that when do choose to use the rules for fly it doesnt get doubled.

Yes, there is, but notice that NOWHERE in that section does it proclaim: "This is a normal move". You cannot treat "normal move" as a piece of concretely defined terminology unless you can point to its definition in the book. If you want to informally speak of what is discussed in that section as a "normal move" then youre welcome to, but you cannot apply your personal definition to places you find that phrase in the book.

/shrug

The more I read what you write, the less sense it makes, and the more I think I read it correctly from the start.





Re-Read the Movement rules. They do tell you how to move normally - including manoeuvres.

The third paragraph on page 13 including "Also, a few units move in a special way (flying creatures for example). There are exceptions to the usual rules."

Moving on to "Manoeuvres": "As with a normal move.. ." - which I get the debate trying to say that precludes manoeuvres, I just think its bunk and unrelated, see below.

Then page 15, the text box call out:
"As the name suggests, this is where all other movement is resolved - 'normal' moves, for want of a better phrase."

This has just come up on an Australian forum as well and it seems the general consensus there is that your movement value is doubled plain and simple.

Yeah I posted that topic on WAU because there were no straight answers here, I'm still with the idea that it doubles movement, not the characteristic

But they changed it in the FAQ to say Movement Allowance which is the stat

Pg 3 BRB FAQ

"Reference Section – The Lore of Light, Birona’s Timewarp
Change “[...]Movement[...]” to “[...]Movement
Allowance[...]” "

And since the spell doesn't say it can rasie it above 10 it caps there.

Then they clearly have not read the FAQ.

Really, armed with the Timewarp FAQ rewording + the cap of 10 on a characteristic, I can't see any wiggle room, at all, to say that timewarp lets you take your M over 10. Are there lots of ways to move more than 10 inches? Sure! Are there _any_ ways to take M over 10? No.

I still see people referenceing that "movement allowance" is faq'd as a characteristic. Where does it say this?

The spell says that you double your movement allowance, as updated in the FAQ. To me that reads if you can move 8", then it is doubled so you move 16". This is not changing the movement characteristic past 10, as it does not say "double your movement characteristic".

Another interpretation why they could have faq'd Timewarp to say "movement allowance" over "movment" could be the simple word "movement" alluded to much to the actual characteristic.

Some people have argued that about consistency with standard rules etc, however there are hundreds of examples where magic items/spells/special rules in army books override the normal ruleset to give an advantage. I don think this is an argument that can be made. Just say'n

I think i was getting tired last night towards the end of the posting and it might have been more difficult to understand than it should have been, so i guess ill try to clean up my presentation by explaining one more time:

[BRB p.167 Birona's Timewarp]

[BRB FAQ p.3 The Lore of Light, Birona's Timewarp]
So the movement that is doubled by the spell from the base text in the brb and from this errata is Movement Allowance, the stat, and only the stat, and it is capped at 10. I think everyone (everyone that is paying attention anyway) is in agreement that this is the case.

[BRB FAQ. p.11]
This allows us to conclusively state 1 rulechange from what i said in response to the quote above:
1. If the unit has a movement special rule, then its movement* is doubled.

What is confusing everyone is the phrase "normally move". What i am saying "normally move" means is "ordinarily move" or "usually move". If it helps to clear things up then substitue the word "usually" or "ordinarily" in that quote.

Why is substituting that word ok? Arent i changing the meaning of whats being said? No. The sense in which i feel the author is using the word "normally" is the sense that how something "normally" does something is how it "usually" does something. The author is NOT using a defined term that has 1 strict meaning used consistently throughout the book, they are using a piece of the english language that has multiple ways of being used and interpreted.

Now, if that explanation doesnt satisfy you then consider this:

What is the "they" referring to here? To see what "they" refers to you have to take it in context (since "they" is a pronoun). What "they" is referring to is "Units with a movement special rule special rule (lets use fly as an example)". Well...how do units with the fly special rule "normally/usually/ordinarily" move? By flying. Just to bash the point over the head there is NO reason to think that its referring to how units in general "normally" move, as opposed to how flying units "normally" move, they has to be taken in the context of what is being faqed there. What is being faqed there is how movement special rules are modified by bironas timewarp. If you consider "they" to mean how units in general move then you are taking "they" out of context, which is basically ignoring the rules.

Movement Allowance has always been the characteristic M.

Pg 3 BRB Models & Units: Characteristics of Models

"Movement Allowance (M): Often called Move, this shows the number of inches a model can move on the battlefield under normal circumstances. For example, a Man with a Move of 4 (M4) can move up to 4" when moving at full rate. A horse moves far faster and therefore has M8"

And yes your right there are a ton of examples where items spells or special rules break the normal rule set but they always explictly say that they do and when they don't they (usally) get FAQ'd. Not to mention when its in an army book it overrides the BRB.

A cavalry unit marches 16+ because to march you make a "march move", which you make by moving double your "Movement Allowance". Your "Movement Allowance" is never increased, you just move double it. This is NOT how timewarp works. Timewarp tries to straight up double your movement value. Doing things this way it CANNOT bring your movement allowance over 10 (you can still march with movement 10 and move 20). These are 2 different ways of doing things, and so they can have 2 different results.

Timewarp does exactly the same thing according to your own words.

Timewarp states "double your movement allowance" as per the FAQ. No mention of characteristics at all.

What is the exact wording for marching?

Huh, i didnt think anyone was still arguing that amon. Here is the exact text for marching:

[BRB p.26 Marching]

Strangely enough it uses "Movement rate" not "Movement allowance", HOWEVER the term "Movement rate" IS capitalized in the text (just as ive done here). As others on the forum have pointed out, whenever something is capitalized in the text it means that it refers directly to the line on the models stat block, so there is no ambiguity, it means "Movement allowance".

But as far as what is relevant to this discussion let me try to clear it up with a little abstraction (famous last words?):
I'm trying to establish the difference in 2 formulas:
M is Movement allowance
A is march distance

1.
2 x M = M
M = A

2.
2 x M = A

The first formula says take M and make M twice as big. The second formula says the value for A is twice the value of M.
The first formula says double your Movement Allowance(M). Then make your march distance(A) equal to M. That is how you're saying it works. It's not.
The second formula says march distance is twice your movement allowance. The value of M is never changed by you declaring a march move. The stat on your profile never goes above 10, even though your cavalry moves 16'. Thats how it works.

(BIG DISCLAIMER: I am bad at math. If i've made some embarassingly simple mistake in notation do your best to ignore it (or pm me to help me correct it to clarify my point...). Also, If turning it into a formula doesnt help to explain it at all then feel free to say so and ill do my best to explain without the added abstraction.)

Clear as mud...

As I said in an earlier post Movement Allowance is the stat M on a models profile.

I'll try and clear it up a little with a few examples of what I think he's trying to say.
I'll be using two models, an Empire Spearman and Outrider with and without Timewarp.

First the Spearman, he has a Movement Allowance of 4, or M4. So he can move up to 4" or make a march move of up to 8" by doubling his normal movement rate of 4".

We cast Timewarp on the Spearman so now his Movement Allowance so he now has M8 on the profile. He can now move 8", or make a march and double the 8" to 16".

Second we have the Outrider who since being on a Horse has M8. He can move 8" or march 16".

We now cast Timewarp on the Outrider so we double his M stat which should mean M8 turns to M16, but since this is a stat it is capped at a maximum of 10 so he has M10 instead due to this restriction. He now can move 10" or march 20".

I hope that clears it up a little.

I know i promised to explain it without math if people are still confused, but im just going to give up on that promise right now. The more i think about it the more i realize that the rule itself, at its basic level IS mathematical. It calls on you to double a value, and so it takes formulas and numbers. Anyway, sometimes an example helps, so here goes:

We go out to a bar. I decide to be all macho tough guy and say i can drink you under the table. In fact, i tell you that im going to drink twice as many beers as you at the bar.

What i just said did NOT double the amount of beer YOU drunk (your movement allowance)[Ignoring for the moment that you might drink extra just to watch me pass out]. It determined the value of a separate variable (the amount of beer that *I* drunk).

Marching works the same way. It doesnt increase the amount of Movement allowance the model has, it is just able to move twice the distance (drink twice as many beers) as the thing its based off of.

Ok so i didnt explain it without math, but does adding beers into the explanation make it better?

Not at all.

It IS quite simple, really. If you had a "double axe" that "makes each hit count as two hits", you wouldn't be affected by the cap of A(ttacks) at 10. But if it said "the double axe doubles your Attacks", it would. Timewarp works the same way. The one exception is random characteristics on a profile, they are never capped.

I'm still on the fence about this.

Page 3 under movement allowance "Often called Move, this shows the number of inches a model can move in the battlefield under normal circumstances."

Clearly magic buffs aren't normal so logically (something I hate using with GW) they'd double the movement allowance.

Then of course the opening paragraph clearly states all characteristics cannot go below 0 or above 10 so with that same logic OWC there is no reason why attacks wouldn't be capped at 10 (unless random).

Thoughts?

No... if im understanding you correctly then i believe you have it backwards (although perhaps im just being too strict with the language, and you really mean to say what im saying anyway...). There are 2 different situations:
1. move at double the units Movement allowance
2. make the units Movement allowance twice as large

When a unit is hit by Birona's it does effect #2, it makes the units Movement allowance twice as large.

When a unit chooses to march or charge it does #1, it doesnt touch the units Movement allowance, it just moves up to a number of inches equal to double the units movement allowance.

I'm probably just being up-tight about the phrasing though, ignore me if thats the case

Correction:
The one exception is movement special rules, of which random movement is just one example (as is fly).
I feel like ive put this text into quote brackets a hundred times now but here it is again with emphasis to show whats important to notice.