No Save Needed?

Here, more than with many other armies, I see people running no save lords/heroes.

Why is this?

Why do people feel a Tomb King doesn't need protection when, say, an Ogre with similar stats and more wounds does?

If you can get away without spending points on items, you can get lots more stuff for your army - so it's a really interesting idea for me.

Do you run a save on your lord?

Have you had success with/without it?

I run mine with LA shield DoE and dragon helm but i also run a herald with the armor of destiny and its worked great for me

Wizard Lord? No save. If he gets into combat he's toast anyway, so why waste the points. Dragonbane gem at best.

Fighty Lord? ...don't use them, so can't comment .

Exactly as Veritas says.

If they get stuck in combat, our Liches are going to bite it whether they have a 4+ Ward or not. Any real protection is simply keeping them out of trouble, safely tucked away where they can't be attacked.

Our combat characters don't have access to Heavy Armour outside of common Magic items. Realistically we are stuck with (Light + Shield + Magic helmet/Magic Heavy armour / Enchanted Shield) meaning a 4+ save. Chariots or Skeletal Steeds boost it to a 3+ but come with a bucket of weakness which aren't worth the investment.
Considering the Flammable rule, I would say that a Dragonbane / Dragonhelm is mandatory but beyond that, they're pretty beefy. While you can get them a decent Ward save, I would prefer to use the Healing Potion.

I haven't run a Tomb King for a while. When I did it was definatley with a save. As far as our mages go, they have 1 strength 3 attack. Why would you want them anywhere near combat?

priests is a "no brainer" .... watse of points defending them with items... if you ever get a game where a ward save on a priest "makes the difference" between viczory or lose... well,.. then both you and your oppnent did something "wrong"..


tomb king ... well,...


the tk kings as army have no armored units "special",... the tankiest it gets is with 3+ snakes... any "decent" army has at least 1 unit with at least a 2+ posibility... or any other tankyness-option...

so giving your tk a lot of armor kinda makes away that"special" and "unsineggizes" with the rest of the army....

a tk is tough(T5) and rough(W4) ... buti just cant see him as a tank... therefore the best armor combo i think is glitering scales and (most likely) dragonbane gem.

glitering scales is such a great (again) sinergy with a king i thin its going to be my all favorite choice.
1. anyone in the game will hit him basic on a 5+,.
2. with either of 2 spells from lore of light wich come very cheap hitting is on a 6+
3. if someone fails a panic check its again on a 6+
2+3 together means even fight-characters hit him on a 5-6

- giving deathmask someone in the near or even him means terror checking on normal LD without bsb. for additional fun

I don't play with kings/princes often, but when I do I take a 4+ ward.
For my armies that include them the characters staying alive to continue giving my units ws5/6 is really important so I find it worth it to invest the points in keeping them alive

well i disagree with Cara and the rest the ward save on the LP is good it helps with miscasts, as well if your opponent is running death magic(we arent the only ones) it helps with Spirit leech, and other death spells. it also helps with the rogue cannon snipe. none of these are always threats but i look at it like a condom. id rather have and not need it than need it and not have it

I don't disagree with your logic Master Necromancer, but for the points of a good ward save, I find I am better served by a powerstone or a dispel scroll, or 2 extra carrion, or 2 banners and 2 musicians, as these have swayed way more of my games. But you are correct, you are sort of naked against armies which invest heavily in sniping.

And thats why im a lil thrown out of it compared to everyone else here, i run my lists a lil smaller than everyone else because i dont run units w/o a banner or a muc, champion is usually what i leave out if i need points. soo thats why i use that as far as the D.scroll it still fits but i usually put that on the lv 2 and use the earthing rod on the heiro to avoid the chance of being sucked into the void from the miscast.

Giving a ward on a priest is useless, for obvious reasons. Too many points spent to protect a cheap character. I think we can all agree on that.

The Hierophant already has a 6+ built-in regen. Believe it or not it has already saved my life. If I spend points in a ward save I basically pay for something that I have already (at least partially). Furthermore, we know that as soon as they (or their unit) get into CC they are going to die quickly. A Ward save won't save him usually. Now the miscasts problems, it can of course happen but I don't cast many spells with him using more than 2 or 3 dices. With a Titan + the Casket, I can cast all 10+ spells with a super high chance of success with 2 dices, so I avoid many miscast problems that way. It means that my Hierophant almost never dies from wounds caused by miscast, at least never before T4+ which then often makes few difference. And lastly, a ward save won't save him from being sucked into the warp, which is probably one of the biggest threat for him. So yeah lately I just went without any ward save on the HLP and happen to not miss it at all.

For Kings and Princes it's different. Their synergy with the troops are great, and keeping them alive is important for that reason. They also add punch to the unit you put him in with S6 attacks, so again their presence in a unit have a big difference in the combat. Furthermore, if you lose your Hierophant, with their Ld 9/10 they can keep your cental lines alive. I find that the Armour of Destiny on a Prince make it extra tough. A 4+ ward save is like doubling the wounds on your character in average, and on a Prince that has 3 with T5 I find that it is an good investment.

The only times I use a Herald is as a BSB with the Standard of the Undying Legion to raise back Ushabtis and Knights. So I have no room for magic items anyway ...

I can't speak to Kings or Princes as I rarely field them from the Tomb Kings or Tomb Prince Army List entries (I have my own I field if I field one at all).

Wizards are usually geared to cast spells and not geared to save their skin (or what's left of it) if something goes wrong. If I feel I have the spare points, however, I will invest what points I have left into defense for my Priests. I know the value of having a ward save but the ability of the Wizard to perform his function (while alive) takes precedence.

I am the same way.

A power stone and the wand of jet are significantly better investments for liches than a ward save. Sure, a ward will come into play in some games, but the other two items are very useful in pretty much every single game I play.

Great discussion!
I have always taken at least the 5+ if not the 4+ ward on my lich. It has saved his butt on more than one occassion. Yet i have missed out on many fun magic items that could help keep my magic phase on the top. I shall look into some fun toys and suprise my regular friend as we ready for the tourney we are going to. My lich gets to go shopping! Yay!

Jay

may i ask what fun toys other than the book of ashur are people missing out on with a ward save on a hero lv i understand but on a lord lv you still have 65 pts to play with. and i would never take a D scroll power stone or a wand of jet on the heirophant i dont like the risk of blowing up and i dont know why unless your fishing for Dispel dice ud only use 2 dice because ur average is going to be a 7 on the die roll 4 for lv and lets say 2 on the titan thats a 13 itll get 3 dice if your lucky 2 dice with HE or WE or if its a spell they really wanna stop theyd scroll it. that and most of our spells are mid casting value being 9+ with an 8+ and a 6+ and 11+ for dessication soo bank on the average seems like a very bad risk in fun games take it all day long in a tourniment setting its not something ud wanna risk. and again not trying to trash anyone because its all about the meta in your area and my opinion is based on the players in my area and the GTs i go to. the biggest thing in warhammer is magic is key if you dont protect your casters you can win thats why dwarfs have such a hard time right now. also if you place your caster on the corner of a unit you can reduce the # of attacks on him and in a horde formation on the corner unless you go up against another horde you can also angle your charge to keep the caster out of combat and with a ward save almost certian to keep him alive i know cux this is how i run him 9 time out of 10 and the few times hes died i had already lost the game( cant help bad dice ).

Gaaahhhhh! Text wall!

Punctuation and capitalization, my good man!

i have learned blowing up happens. Usually when you least expect it and you will fail all ward saves. So, I regularly taunt it when the pay-off is big. I'll dabble with 2-3 dice in rounds 1-2, but rounds 3 on if the gain is big I go large.

Maybe I'll end up keeping the ward, maybe not. This thread has encouraged me though to break the mold once again which is what always has made me a better player. Granted, there is 65 points to play with on him if I do take the ward, but that is also the extra 6 TG i want. OR would mean losing one of my scorpions that I love soo dearly. My lich's ward has helped maybe in 30% of games. Scorpions have helped in 90+% of games. My lich is considered expendable so doesnt get a big allowance from me for magic items.

Jay

Very good point and one I've been pondering.

My boyfriend has a golden rule when playing Scaven (maybe it's a common rule?): For every 10 points you spend, you must have at least 1 model on the field.

The idea is that even though you could field some of the crazy characters or awesome monsters (generalization) your army needs the filler. A car needs a frame to hold the engine, gas tank and so on, in place.

When spending your points on character upgrades, it's beneficial to ask yourself what you could buy for your Unit choices and if that might be the better option.

P.S.: I hate his Scaven army...

For me, the days of loaded up characters are a thing of the past.

I used to put the (20" fly) cloak of the dunes and the heiratic jar on my main man, but now I rarely spend more than around 30 points on items for a wizard. Characters just die too easily these days, and with the reduction in magic item selection, I just don't see the need to tool a guy up. I'd rather have more models...hey...it's like GW planned it that way...

Very good point and one I've been pondering.

My boyfriend has a golden rule when playing Scaven (maybe it's a common rule?): For every 10 points you spend, you must have at least 1 model on the field.

The idea is that even though you could field some of the crazy characters or awesome monsters (generalization) your army needs the filler. A car needs a frame to hold the engine, gas tank and so on, in place.

When spending your points on character upgrades, it's beneficial to ask yourself what you could buy for your Unit choices and if that might be the better option.

P.S.: I hate his Scaven army...

I think his rule only applies to armies that can flood the board with effective models. My other half runs DE and recently VC and he tends to follow the same logic. If I'm trying to adhere to this, it means I'm running tons of Skeletons...which I almost never do.

I generally just give my Priests a single Arcane Item (Channeling Staff and the Kanopi being my personal favorites as I really hate one use only items).

It depends on the importance of the character. These days, I've seen enough monsters, Hordes of Great Weapons, Sniper Maneaters, and Spirit Leeches to feel pretty sure about slapping a 4+ Ward save on any Lord (be it fighty or casty) without a second thought. I wouldn't bother protecting Hero-level casters that way, though, and fighty Heroes only get the deluxe defense treatment if they're a BSB (and when playing TK, a BSB is rarely a good decision).

I usually only take the dragonbane gem for any heirophant protection. But, this also depends on the points value to what gear to kit them out in. Under 2k usually only the gem, above 2k I get something better maybe a 4+. I usually always take a power stone or a dispel scroll. I rarely have issues with my heiro dieing and if it does happen I am probally losing anyways. I think it all comes down to points under 2k I barely kit out characters. In most cases 2 or 3 extra something else can win games like tomb guard. I try to balance what I equip my heroes and lords with. I usually on a tomb king or prince just give them a great weapon and dragonhelm under 2k and some armor or extra killyness in higher point games. If they kill my king or prince it happens cause Im like KABOOM! CURSE!

I think Tomb Kings need more units then fully kitted out lords and heroes. When you run to much in lords and heroes you pay for it in the end and you lose. Tomb Kings can be very unforgiving when you dont balance things well. I find the most important things in this game is magic for Tomb Kings even though its fickle and not the best you need arcane items to give you and edge in a magic phase cause that wins games. No army can dominate every aspect of a battle; the majority of armies will only dominate one category. You should therefore, choose one or two aspects in which you want your army to excel. Movement, Magic, Shooting, or Close Combat. So when building your lists you have to take this into account and will help build and balance.

In the end it comes down to what points do you have left to use and use wisely You dont need kitted out lords to win. But if there naked protect them.

I give my Tomb Prince a shield, great weapon, and chariot so he gets a 4+ save, and my King gets the armour of silvered steel, the dragonbane gem, and the regenerating sword [forgot the name]. Makes him almost invincible.

Always run at least a Prince, more often a King with shiled, destiny, gem, +some fancy sword.

I usually have 30+ HW/S Tomb Guard, sometimes 40+ and the King sits in there.

Buff it with Cursed Blades if you are fortunate enough to roll it and it becomes a unit to be avoided by most things.

WS6, KB on 5+, Maybe a save, parry defo

When the TG come with me I have a chance of winning, when I decide to leave them at home I lose. Love my TG.


As an aside, in one game I had a unit of 50 metal TG on a horde base, when i lifted it up the whole base bent in the middle. You just don't get that good fighty feeling with plastic!