Khsar's Incantation Of The Desert Wind, Question?

Something that came up in my second game...

"The targets can immediately make a normal move as if it were the remaining moves sub-phase"

.....I was not sure if the wording of normal means it could not include a "maneouvre", ie a reform, a wheel etc.

Can anyone help me with this, with refs. in the the books so I learn properly would be much appreciated.

Thank you
Doc

It can indeed! It can do everything it can do in the remaining moves phase

Thank you for the reply Fox, I wonder if you could elaborate* for me, I still have no idea why they used the word normal. This would suggest a restriction of some sort, but what?

"....make a move as if it were the remaining moves sub-phase"

That would give me no confusion, using "normal" implies restrictions, I read that as can move forward only, because every other move is not normal and has it's own entry?

Please forgive my ignorance if I am not seeing the wood for the trees, I'm a newb.

Doc


*page reference etc.

The restriction with the spell is you can not charge. As it allows you to "....make a move as if it were the remaining moves sub-phase". Hope that helps.

Moving Your Units Page 13
"A unit can move straight forward any distance up to its Movement value (M) in inches.

In Warhammer, a basic move for any model, and therefore any unit of models, is to move forward a number of inches up to their Movement characteristic.

Remember that individual models are not permitted to leave their units and so a unit effectively moves as a single entity. If, for whatever reason, there is more than one Move characteristic in the unit, then the entire unit is treated as having the same Move value as the slowest model.

Units are cumbersome, and find it hard to change direction. Models (and units) must move forward in a straight line, unless performing a maneuver, which we'll discuss in a moment."

Maneuvers Page 14
"There are two specific maneuvers that enable a unit to change direction or rearrange its ranks: wheel and reform.

As with a normal move, a unit cannot carry out a maneuver if doing so would take it to within 1" of another unit.

Also, none of the models in the unit may move more than twice their Movement rate as a result of a maneuver (i.e. Men with Move 4 can move up to 8")."

Khsar's Incantation of the Desert Wind (Signature Spell)
"Khsar's Incantation of the Desert Wind is an augment spell that targets all unengaged friendly Nehekharan Undead units within 12". The targets can immediately make a normal move as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase. [...] "

Remaining Moves Page 26
-Moveing your Units-
"Durring the Remaining Moves sub-phase, units that did not charge, flee, rally or compulsorily move this Movement phase, and which are not engaged in combat, can now move and perform manoeuvres as described on page 13.

The player picks one of his units and moves it a distance up to the unit's Move value (M) in inches. Once the chosen unit has finished its movement, the player can pick and move another unit, unitl all the eligible units the player wishes to move have done so."

---------------------------------------

I honestly can see where you are coming from. I -really- want an FAQ to set this question to rest.

Honestly it -appears- as though a Normal move is Straight forward (depressing). This is how I've been playing it and this is the one area where I feel (if this is what was intended) is a bit of an unfair restriction of the writer to place on us considering we can't march (ever).

Thank you Aegis.

I am praying cupcake merely made a cross reference fail when he wrote the spell, with the desire to give us a "normal" move not perhaps a charge.

Even the loss of a swift reform is a kick in the bones though.
I'm sorry to my fellow Desert Lords for bringing this up.

Doc

ps *edit* & Desert Queens ofc

No reason to be sorry. If you have a question, we are here to try and answer it

If you have any additional inquiries don't hesitate to ask.

I remember that this question has come up before. I dont remember what the verdict was, and i dont have the time to research all the relevant quotes again. I think in my mind it ended up coming down to whether or not a "normal move" is an actual term with a single definition or just a phrase that gets thrown around in a couple places with vague undefined meanings, and i think i leaned toward the latter, but without looking in the book i wouldnt wanna say for sure.

Notice in the moving your units section is calls it a "basic move" NOT a "normal move", however in our army book it says "normal move" rather than "basic move". To me that doesnt feel like consistent and well defined terminology (and if it is, then it is referring to 2 diff things, and is vague). If i had more time before work id dig up the rest of it and give a less wishy-washy answer.

If you find anything let us know. I remember the discution and we never came to a final conclution

There's nothing like a "normal moves" definition in the book. So that's not the key words you need to look at. But what the spell allow the targets to do is "move as if it were in the Remaining Moves sub-phase".

In the Remaining Moves sub-phase (p.26), a unit can "move and perform manoeuvres", and even redirect you to p.13 were you'll find the mechanic of moving and making manoeuvres. Moving are described as moving foward, backward and sideways. Also marching, but that don't apply to us. You can thus do all of those things.

Mioumboy you are missing part of the quote, youre leaving out the exact couple of words that are causing the problem. Here is the full first sentence of Khsar's desert wind:

For clarity's sake i think i found all of the relevant quotes, ill try to organize them like aegisgrey since she does an awesome job of assembling them in a way that is easy to read and absorb:

Khsar's Incantation of the Desert wind TK army book, p.61
See above

Moving Your Units BRB, p.13

Manoeuvres BRB, p.14

BRB FAQ

Now, as we can see, the quotes i have given show two different phrases. They ONLY use the phrase "normal move" within the tk book. They use BOTH phrases within the BRB, however the phrase "normal move" is ONLY used when describing something that is not a normal move (a manoeuver), and we can assume this because it uses the phrase "as with a normal move".

While it annoys me that they use 2 different phrases and thus make the interpretation more ambiguous and open to interpretation especially since they never actually define a "normal move", it seems that the case for manouvers not being considered normal moves is strong (but not conclusive, faq please!).

To me it makes the most sense at this point to say "normal move" = "basic move"(and that even using the phrase "basic move" was a mistake, and they meant to say "normal move"), and to conclude that a manoeuver cannot be taken with desert wind. I could see it being argued that the wording within the manoeuvers paragraph isnt strong enough to eliminate the possibility that manoeuvers are part of a normal move though.

Edit: I guess my answer was still wishy-washy even after the research, but i blame GW! Give us a clear rulebook!

I agree with kingwrynn. We all know GW doesn't meticulously define every instance into a mathematical language with clear and rigid keywords for everything.

normal and basic simply mean "default" i.e. what any unit in the game can do if no specific additional information is given (additional information such as 'it charged'; 'it is fleeing'; 'it has random movement'; etc.)

Mioumboy hits the nail on the head as well: a term we deal with that IS defined is the remaining-moves subphase.

I didn't miss it, I said it in my post above and Krael just said it again, "normal move" is not a rule you'll find in the book, it's just an expression they use for moving the unit around. Since it's not a rule term, they sometime use "normal", sometime "basic" to talk about movement, you won't find them using synonym for any rules term, but they are here.

So like I said, "normal move" is not the part of the spell description you should be focusing on, but the rest of the sentence where you'll find the rule you need.

Making manouevers is not on page 13, it is on page 14 under a new section, which led me to lean on the side of, "normal" means forward, backward and sideways, anything esle is a "abnormal" or a manoeuvre.
As I mentioned earlier, the paragrpah alludes to a normal move being a forward one and then goes on to say anything else is considered a manouevre.
Also
[.....] A reform is a complicated manouevre and ordinarily prevents the unit.....[..]
If we want to put these descriptions of all the possible moves into brackes the use of complicated when referring to a reform could lead you to understand it is not "basic".

I posted the question on warseer to get a view of non TK players, because I thought we might be pre disposed to a favourable ruling, the outcome was quite unanamious against wheels and reforms.

I didn't miss it, I said it in my post above and Krael just said it again, "normal move" is not a rule you'll find in the book, it's just an expression they use for moving the unit around. Since it's not a rule term, they sometime use "normal", sometime "basic" to talk about movement, you won't find them using synonym for any rules term, but they are here.

So like I said, "normal move" is not the part of the spell description you should be focusing on, but the rest of the sentence where you'll find the rule you need.

Have you considered that a 'move' can be the defined term (move as many inches forward as you like up to you allowance, page 13) and can indeed be seen as something that's different from manouvres. The distinction move vs manouvre is made several times in the rulebook, no doubt about that (see kingwryns quotes).

To add:

I don't think 'normal move' was simply a poor choice of words either, considering it shows up so often throughout several texts. Here is the Vampire Counts movement spell as an example:

Vanhel's Danse Macabre
"The target unit re-rolls failed To Hit rolls in close combat until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. In addition, if the target unit is unengaged, it can immediately make a move of up to 8" in the same way as a normal move made in the Remaining Moves sub-phase."

It continues to seem that they use normal to help distinguish between a move and a maneuver.

would that for the dans macabre mean that skellies get to move up to their movement allowance, or the full 8 inch?

You're still looking at it backward. The spells tell you "move as if it were in the Remaining Moves sub-phase".

Now you need to look at p.26, were you'll see the Remaining Moves rules, wich clearly say in the bolded part that you can "move and perform manoeuvres as described on page 13."

The page 13 reference is were the moving mechanic is explained, with how to move your units around and include manoeuvres, it's part of the mechanic of how to move your units.

Backwards? You're leaving out the adjective (descriptive term) in that sentence that describes what type of movement is to be made.

If we were to look at it your way:

"..targets may make a normal move as if it were in the remaining moves sub-phase."

on to page 26
"During the Remaining Moves sub-phase, units that did not charge, flee, rally or compulsorily move this Movement phase, and which are not engaged in combat, can now move and perform manoeuvres as described on page 13."

Even this paragraph points out that a move and a manoeuvre is not the same thing. So what is the definition of a move and what is the definition of a manoeuvre?

Movement
Moving Your Units
"A unit can move straight forward any distance up to its Movement value (M) in inches.

In Warhammer, a basic move for any model, and therefore any unit of models, is to move forward a number of inches up to their Movement characteristic."

This part suggests that Movement is simply straight forward. Then what is a manoeuvre?

Manoeuvres
"There are two specific manoeuvres that enable a unit to change direction or rearrange its ranks: wheel and reform.

As with a normal move, a unit cannot carry out a manoeuvre if doing so would take it to within 1" of another unit."

According to the above, a Manoeuvre is simply something that lets you change direction. But as with a normal move (what is a normal move?) the Manoeuvre can not take a model or unit within 1" of another unit.


According to this a Move is not the same as a Manoeuvre, though they do take place in the same phase.

Our spell lets us make a normal movement as if we were in the Remaining Moves sub-phase. If you want I can remove the adjective but the result would still be the same:

"move (no mention of Manoeuvre) as if they were in the remaining moves sub-phase."

what is a move? According to page 13 a move is straight forward up to the units Movement characteristic.



At the very least this should throw this spell into question unless you are ignoring all that is mentioned in this thread.

I assume if this is true, then no pivoting for single models either? Or Fly moves? Well that sucks...

Yes, backward, because you're trying to use an adjective that isn't part of the rules, and try to find rules for it that doesn't exist.

If "normal move" was a rule of it's own, it would be capitalized, like all other rules reference are. While "Remaining Moves" is capitalized, and you can find the rules for it in the book. And it's what the spell say to do, moves as in the Remaining Moves sub-phase.

The fact that manoeuvres is listed clearly as what is allowed in the Remaining Moves was not clear enough I guess. But in the end, if you still want to limit yourself, I can't stop you, I guess your opponent won't mind either

Correct you -move- as if you were in the remaining moves sub-phase. As above a move and a manoeuvres are two different things.

In this you are still assuming that manoeuvres are allowed simply because they are listed in the Remaining Moves sub-phase:

Correct a manoeuvre is allowed to be performed in the Remaining Moves sub-phase. However the spell itself is restricting you to only -move- as if you were in the Remaining Moves sub-phase.

This thread is not meant to restrict or limit ourselves but to reflect our desire to play the rule correctly. We have a question and have pointed out areas that cause us to question exactly what the spell does. We have yet to see any solid evidence that proves our concerns wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.

It really would be nice to see GW FAQ this and put it to rest; either to allow all actions that normally take place in the Remaining Moves sub-phase or not. I would love to be able to manoeuvre using this spell but I just want to play it right and know for sure 100% that I'm doing it right. Based on what has been presented (no matter how unfair or how much i'd like to ignore it) I feel I can only move straight forward.

You keep talking about "move", but "move" in itself is not a rule. The mechanic of Movement is described at page 13, where the Remaing Moves redirect you. The Movement mechanic encompass all the stuff listed on page 13 and continue on page 14.

The spell say you move (no capitalization, not a rule) as the Remaining Moves phase (capitalization, it's part of the rules). And the the Remaining Moves tell you what you can do.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...ignature-Spell)

Antares countered my arguements wonderfully here, which echo exactly what Mioumboy has been posting.

Also on the ETC forums a sage was kind enough to post this for me:

Pg 506

Movement Summary

Normal move= Movement characteristic.

So, normal move descibed in the spell can be attributed to this, which then indemnifies it against all the restrictions I have argued, because a move in the remaining moves sub-phase can include a wheel, reform but not a charge, the line alludes to the fact that it is movement characteristic, not as I have been arguing a restriction.

Doc

I'd like to add something, which you may (or may not) find helpful.

Dwarf army book p31 (Anvil of Doom rules), Rune of Oath and Honour:
"A single, friendly Dwarf unit (but not a Gyrocopter) may make a normal move (which can be a March or Charge) in the shooting phase."

So this suggests "normal moves" include Marching and Charging, not just the Move characteristic. Whilst I appreciate Ceodoc pointing out the wording in the movement summary, I'd also point out that "Normal Move" is capitalised in that section, making it a defined term, whereas the wording in the desert wind spell is all lower case. When refering to a defined term, GW do usually use the capitals.