Vc Versus Tk, (Insert Comparisons and Complaints Here)

I've had the luxury of reviewing the VC book and am of course annoyed at how much more synergy exists in the VC (and other 8th ed books) than ours. I am thoroughly disgusted. There are little nuances here and there but I'm looking at the big items.

So without further ado - the comparisons.
1. Default rules - the much speculated rumor is true. As long as there is another wizard with Vampire lore, the VC army stops crumbling after the death fo the general.

They can only march within 12" of the general unless they are a vampire. It's a knock down from before but still better than us.

2. Magic - This is my biggest concern. Lore of Vampires has an awesome default spell. Nehek augments all units similar to Desert Wind except that it gets you more wounds back. Specifically, D6+level for infantry, 1+level for non-infantry, non-Large, non-Ethereal, non Vampires, and 1 for Vampires, Large, Ethereal, per casting. Zombies can go beyond their starting size and raise 2d6 plus level.

Oh yeah, their lore attribute is the same as Lore of Life so they can heal an extra wound on any friendly model within 12", including characters and Large/Ethereal/Vampires.

TK constructs are stuck to 1 per turn. Also, the augments are of limited value, such as Desert Wind after combat has occurred. At that point, we only get a 3 augments to try out.

3. Characters - they now have 2 additional ethereal heroes. We got nothing new.

4. Core - This is perhaps the only place where we are slightly better off than VC. Our core got cheaper for our book. All we lost were fast cav chariots and given regular chariots and the ability to take magic banners (that's a separate debate). They also got a points drop except for Crypt Ghouls who went up. Don't get me wrong because I foresee Zombie armies again similar to 6th edition. Combined with magic, they can become a colossal headache when they get to 80 or more. Overall, the "core tax" is perhaps even between the books.

5. Special - They gained an ethereal fast cav and 2 Monstrous Infantry. We got monsters, monstrous cavalry, and monstrous beasts. Each book is unique so I don't mind that. What I do mind is the fact that both their monstrous infantry are cheaper than Ushabti. Crypt Horrors (aka Super Ghouls) are 3/4 the cost of Ushabti with S4, T5, 5+ regen and poisonous attacks. Vargheists are flying, marching S5, T4, I4, frenzy for roughly the same cost as Ushabti. Where's the justice in that? They did lose magical attacks on their wights (still have killing blow) but the ethereals in their list can make up for the magical attacks.

Here are the kickers - Spirit Hosts (those 4 wound ethereals) are now unit size 1. Our Tomb Swarms used to be like that but are now 2 minimum.

6. Our book doesn't really have combos where the army comes together. That's mostly because of the rules restrictions (can't march, EBTS, healing restrictions, etc). Dark Elves are the best example of complimentary abilities. Ogres do it very well also.

Here's some ridiculous combos for VC.
The Mortis Engine improves regen for units within 2d6 and can give non-regenerating units a 6+ regen, similar to our Hierophant. That means the unit of 50 zombies could get a 6+ regen! More importantly, Crypt Horrors get a 4+ regen and the Seed of Rebirth turns into a 4+ regen as well. That's functionally 3 4+ward saves in their army.

VC lord with 5 S7 attacks at WS9 with ASF and Red Fury and still have a 4+ward save. He is good for 8 wounds at S7 against most targets.

Nehek-spam. A level 1 Necromancer casting Invocation and using the Lore Attribute. He heals 2d6+1 wounds on zombies. 3 wounds on Crypt Horrors. 2 wounds on large/ethereals/vampires. That's busted.

When you read the book, you'll see there are lots of possibilities out there while we are getting pigeonholed.

7. Anyway, I have to hold out hope that TK will get minor tweaks as well to balance out the internal structure. Otherwise the comparisons between the books are literally day and night, and Nagash's minions will overrun the Nehekarans.

The two areas that I think are workable are the healing (characters and constructs) and Entombed Beneath the Sands. If GW will errata Desert Wind and remove those other silly healing restrictions, TK will be back in the running.

Ooh, do bear in mind that Nehek is apparently a bubble cast so your level 1 necromancer will be doing all the things you mentioned... at the same time.

However, on the flip side, the range is short on the basic cost, and they have to invest a good few PD to boost the range to 18", so they have to remain reasonably close together if they fancy healing everyone with ease.

Good Summary, I haven't gotten my book yet, but it's on the way.

When comparing the two books I'm pretty bummed, as well, particularly about the healing characters/mounts (my biggest beef with our book), and their sweet monstrous infantry. Everything else I don't mind so much (I play VC too).

I'm most excited that Vampires can be fun again. It's not a 'Take a bone-crushing tourny list, or take a crappy, overpriced, fail of a list', there appears to be more options again.

How expensive are the Vampires and other characters in comparison to our stuff?

I think you are wrong about being able to heal characters using Vampire magic/Lore Attribute.

Look at the Warseer discussion here:
Warseer

I have the book, and the wording is entirely analogous. No healing Vampire characters with Invocation of Nehek, no healing Vampire Characters with the Lore Attribute aside from the character casting the spell.

Aside from that, I think their magic is worse than ours. Their lore is very ho-hum. Our casting costs are a little high, their spells are a little weak.

I honestly, 100% think that our method of healing/buffing is going to be more effective than trying to cast Invocation then trying to cast a buff spell.

At the end of the day, given equal magic phases, I think they will be able to heal slightly more than us, but we'll take less casualties and inflict more casualties, and therefore lose combat by less, or even win combats more often.

Their magic support is less versatile as well. I would put my money on a Casket and Hierotitan before Master of the Black Arts and Mortis Engine.

Their characters are very expensive for what they do. 85 points for a Wight King or 100 for a naked Vampire? Makes a Prince at 100 with MWBD look like a steal.

A fully kitted Vampire Lord is 550+ points. That's a King and a LHP. At least we can fight with the King and keep the LHP bunkered. And again, MWBD.

Overall, having had a few hours with the VC book, I am loving Tomb Kings right now. We look pretty damn good.

I now have the book, and just saw a real bummer.

Not only do they have more and better magic items than other books (including TK) AND have a ton of vampiric powers, but...


...they get separate allocations of points to spend on each.



I was really looking forward to them having a single 100 pt pool to use on them combined. They have, effectively, double the options and double the points to spend on them.

EDIT1: I'll come back here as I digest the book more and make more comments.
Just saw something...
The wraith units are no longer skirmishers. At first I thought this could help limit the power of 10-man wraith units since the rear rank attackers would only get one whack instead of three.

Well, not so much.

All they have to do is have the front rank make all three attacks as usual, and have the second rank trade in their attacks for an uberawesome Chill Grip instead.
So, they have a power that lets them take a drawback in the rules and get around it nicely. Sort of a common theme really:

-Generate tons of power dice by getting around the 12 dice max drawback with re-rolls on one die per turn- giving them a more reliable and powerful magic phase than all other wizards in the system can count on.

- The Vampiric rule that lets key unit get around the Undead rule that stops marching. Vargheists, I'm looking at you.

- The double pool of magic items and powers, letting even BSBs get the best magic items and _still_ beef up in other ways.

It's just sad to see such a good, restrictive system like 8th come along and then _still_ have GW find new ways to break the system for VC.

Well, if a Vampire TAKES all the magic allowance and special powers, doesnt that put him around 400pts, or more? IN a 2k game that is a HECK of a lot in a basket, and as that is there combat hero, more than likely they are front line.

Really a curse and a blessing. I think they NEED all that crap as they will be getting hit HARD in combat, the object of enemy attacks, enemy cannons, etc. I know mine always has been. You cant spend over 400pts and have him sit in some skeles in the back. He's gotta be up front leading earning his points. He would be a pushover without all that stuff. You *may* be able to take another vamp to stay off the crumble, but who is to say that one will always be there? That is throwing alot into just vamps.

Certainly looking forward to playing my VC and seeing how this works out.

Note; i find every army has things they can do to get around the rules; UNITS of chariots, units that can flank you or stand and shoot if you charge a nearby unit, Delves with Hatred EVERY round. It makes armies unique.

I would love to hear form people who have faced them with TK and how they thought things went.

J

Sleboda, I tend to agree with you on a lot of things, but I think you are off the mark on the Vampires in a lot of ways.

The Vampire magic items are NOT better than the Tomb Kings items.

Skabscrath is a pretty bad magic weapon. Death Shriek notwithstanding.

Nightshroud is good, but is 40 points.

Banner of the Barrows is a decent 50 point banner, but not versatile at all.

The Periapt is priced right at 55 points. Makes it tough to take.

The Staff of Damnation, Cursed Book, Book of Arkhan and Rod of Flaming Death are decent Bound Spells (yes, I know the Cursed book isn't REALLY a Bound Spell). But they're still Bound Spells in an army that will live or die on what it's Lord level casters do. If the Vampire player wants to try and waste dice on these bound spells, I think that puts their opponents at an advantage.

I think Tomb Kings have done really well with their items. The Vampire Counts don't have any game changers like the Golden Death Mask, Scrolls of Mighty Incantations or Banner of the Hidden Dead.

As an aside, I don't give a crap about Vampiric Powers. A fully kitted Vampire Lord is ~550 points. That's a Tomb King + LHP. If the Vampire tools for combat, they have no lord level caster. If the Vampire tools for magic, they have no fighty lord. If the Vampire tools for both, he's a jack of all trades, master of none. I'd rather have two specialized characters than one massive points sink to serve as the fulcrum that your entire army balances on.

I don't see how this has anything to do with making them non-skirmishers. Skirmishers still get only 1 attack from the rear rank. It's still a huge disadvantage to them. Their mobility has been effectively neutered.

How does re-rolling one of the Winds of Magic dice (which will, at best, add up to 12), get around the 12 dice max drawback? It's a frigging 75 point Vampiric Power.

And although they can march, they can only be healed one wound per cast of Invocation.

And yet, a Wight King is still infinitely better at carrying a BSB than a Vampire. Non-issue. You will never see a VC BSB, because they have no 51+ point magic banners available to their army, and their BSB is just as pathetic as ours.

Mark my words:

Tomb Kings are now the better Undead army.

are you kidding?

seriously?

Skabscrath is not the best weapon, but it makes the destroyer of eternities look even worse. at least their weapon lets them take a heavy armor with 5+ ward save on it!

Nightshroud is freaking amazing, and it still allows you to take a ward save, and necromancers can take it, even though its labeled as an armor. Think about it, Vamp on a throne that makes everyone lose their strength bonus against it? not good you say?

Banner of the borrows is awesome, it's 50 pts for the sane effect as MWBD, hitting everything on 3's, bad? and limited? grave guard, black knights only, who else can take a 50 pts banner in that army? I can only think blood knights, but hey they got to keep their 4+ ward banner against range attacks as a unit upgrade.

as to the periate priced at 55, the mask is 60 and that makes it hard to take as well...no save for that guy (not that its bad mind you, love that item)

and for bound items, we have the scroll of mighty incantations, which guarantees a miscast it seems, and for what spell? seriously, what spell is worth taking a miscast to the face?

and the Enkhil's kanopi which only dispels remain in play spells which are now only vortex spells, which no one uses, unless is the purple sun, and even then they don't care if it last more then one turn, I've never seen someone let it roam around for the entire game.

and we have the banner of the hidden dead, which cost 265 pts (with unit in it of 175) and it blows huge ass! the screaming banner for the VC at 25pts to make fear tests on 3d6 drop the lowest is F'ing amazing and stupid broken. it totally reverses the nerf on fear in 8th, and skeletons can take it?

how do you reason we got the better list??????

please explain....

not to mention that grave guard are a point cheaper with great weapons (when we have halberds), and get a banner that gives the same effect as MWBD, but you have to kill the unit to stop it, not just a character...


TOTAL BULL ######!!!!!

Same effect as MWBD, you say? What do you think an opposing unit will need to hit Grave Guard with WS 3? Most units will need 3's to hit Grave Guard. What do you think most opposing units will need to hit Tomb Guard under MWBD? Most opponents will need 4's to hit TG. Tomb Guard will be taking less casualties than Grave Guard because of this.

There are some instances where Grave Guard will have an advantage in hitting their opponents but Tomb Guard will ALWAYS have an advantage when an opponent is trying to hit TG who are WS 5 or 6.

You mentioned killing just a character to stop MWBD as opposed to killing the whole unit with Grave Guard. You're correct, you only have to kill the Tomb King or Tomb Prince in order to stop MWBD and that's the easiest thing to do, right?

Also, how many Grave Guard do you think will be left to swing those great weapons considering they suffer from ASL as opposed to Tomb Guard swinging halberds? If I see a Corpse Cart traipsing around Grave Guard what do you think my catapults and Casket will be targeting?

I'm not even going to go into the leadership advantage Tomb Guard have or the ability to benefit from our augment spells to increase their effectiveness.

@OrneryRooster

maybe you should look into the VC book a little more?

gravegaurd can get re-roll to hit, and re-roll to wound buffs from spells, and throw in one bat swarm on the side and we get ASL too! or they could just put curse of the years on the TG, or nick the edge of our unit with the wind of death as well.

if their smart they wont even bother with ASF from a corpse cart, as it would just cancel out with ASL from great weapons and they fight on initiative order anyways.

and if we look at every army out there, we attack last with halberds anyways, and with the two ranks always attacking back regardless of wounds received, why would we want halberds over great weapons again?

if you want to go head to head, the first round after your tomb guard attack, the TK will take a minimum of 6 (7 if champ is near ans asuming no mob rule for being 10 wide) attacks hitting on 3's wounding on 3's and you get a 4+ ward save at best. not to mention that they raise back a D6+wizard level (per casting) and if you went 40 TG to 40 GG, they are only going to be 10 pts over us (with banner, and we have no character). and to match that we have to put in a 100+ pt character in the unit. our TK/TP will not last long enough to make the WS buff effective to out match their raising capabilities. and if they put a character in there...we are totally boned! you do realize you are comparing a LORD/HERO in a unit of 40 TG and comparing it to 40 GG with no character, and they are still going to be on a level playing field, right?

and why would a VC player care if they lose a couple more GG each round to our buffed WS, they can raise back 3 times the amount we can on average to match it.

even if you math-hammered it out, 40 wide we get 30 attacks without lord and they hit on 3's wound on 3's we get 14 wounds, then the lord hits with 4 attacks getting 3 wounds so we get 17 kills, they hit back with 3's and wound on 2's so 31 attacks nets (no character) they get 18 kills we lose 1 more from crumble and they raise back a ###### load more then we do, so yeah its the same effect as MWBD. and its cheaper!

furthermore; leadership advantage is nullified by the 12" use of the generals leadership for every test possible, they don't have to be in the unit, and their army has buffs that don't even require a spell to do, or a squishy character that dies in the first round of combat to be in the front rank of the unit.

and yes, TK/TP are some of the squishiest characters in warhammer, 7 GG with banner hits with 3's wounds with 3's is 3 wounds, and you save 1 maybe 2, i give you 2 maybe three rounds of combat to survive, if you have 4+ ward save. and again, they can just out raise you, so winning one round here and there is negated.

also remember that this game is about tactics not just maching up one ~equal unit to another. a little shooting, magic and combo charging and the best player wil(hopefully) win.

The dice god are a fickle bunch! even with the match up weighted in your favour if you have not paid enough tribute they will screw you!

gravegaurd can get re-roll to hit, and re-roll to wound buffs from spells, and throw in one bat swarm on the side and we get ASL too! or they could just put curse of the years on the TG, or nick the edge of our unit with the wind of death as well.

Tomb Guard can get re-roll to hit too(with hatred), 5+ ward save or +1 attack. We can also Dessicate an opponent and if you REALLY want to see what we can do we can also make an opponent suffer a -1 to hit us(Pha's Protection), give us WS 10 and Initiative 10(Speed of Light) or double or movement, get +1 attack and ASF(Birona's Timewarp). Oh, and those bat swarms? My archers killed them before they got into combat to make a difference. I can play this game too.

and if we look at every army out there, we attack last with halberds anyways, and with the two ranks always attacking back regardless of wounds received, why would we want halberds over great weapons again?

Tell that to Empire, Orcs and Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms and Vampire Counts, to name a few. They'll be interested to know that they should be striking before us.

you do realize you are comparing a LORD/HERO in a unit of 40 TG and comparing it to 40 GG with no character, and they are still going to be on a level playing field, right?

Where are you getting these buffs to the Grave Guard from? Are they just appearing out of thin air? You're correct, in order to grant MWBD and hatred Tomb Kings need to have their characters in the unit. Vampire Counts don't need to do so but they still need these characters SOMEWHERE buffing the GG so if you're going to add in the points of Tomb King characters buffing TG don't forget to add the points for VC characters buffing their units.

and yes, TK/TP are some of the squishiest characters in warhammer,

Don't make me laugh, I'm trying to pay attention to the game right now.

This Tomb Guard vs Grave Guard debate needs to end. Both shine in certain circumstances and both can have their abilities increased by characters and spells.

I'm glad that Vampire Counts got a new book and I hope Vampire Count players enjoy the book as much as I enjoy the Tomb King book.

Enough bickering now.

lol @ OrneryRooster Empire has base initiative 3, so your list goes to TG attacking before 2 armies...nice.

and your right, the debate is moot, GG are better, and cheaper then TG.

you brought in spell buffs first, the fact is GG get +1 to hit with great weapons and the math shows they out perform TG with halberds and a 100+ character AND THEY ARE CHEAPER! if you choose to realize it or not, that's your deal.

the fact is they get +2 strength for 1 less point then TG with pretty much the same states. Furthermore, VC can match anything we do to buff TG and they can deal with all the general downfalls to playing an undead army a hell of a lot better then we can.

pure and simple, and plain as day.

so if everyone is complainig so much why don't you just convert all your TK stuff to VC stuff(wouldn't be all to hard) and play with the all so mighty emperors of the dead(wich in this case focus on VC).

Or at least stop with the whining and start building up tactics instead. I think there is a post about it somewhere around.

Bonebreaker; the forum has an 'edit' button for when you want to double post.

And guys, it looks like quite a heated discussion already, please try not to get into a fight just over the respective guards.

My comment was in response to your statement that our Tomb Guard strike last after every other army. Obviously that's not the case.

Of course they are.

Who cares who brought up spell buffs first? Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts use buffs to increase the effectiveness of their units. You can't compare the two without including their buffs. Yep, Grave Guard get +1 to hit and after the heroic halberd-armed Tomb Guard strike the surviving cowardly great weapon-armed Grave Guard get to swing back. I realize that not many cowardly Grave Guard will be left after several rounds of combat.

So Vampire Counts can grant +1 attack, give their units a 5+ ward save or increase their killing blow from 6+ to 5+? I did not know this!

You're funny.

Don't worry, Chaotica, it's winter; things won't get too heated in this discussion.

gravegaurd can get re-roll to hit, and re-roll to wound buffs from spells, and throw in one bat swarm on the side and we get ASL too! or they could just put curse of the years on the TG, or nick the edge of our unit with the wind of death as well.

Tomb Guard can get re-roll to hit too(with hatred), 5+ ward save or +1 attack. We can also Dessicate an opponent and if you REALLY want to see what we can do we can also make an opponent suffer a -1 to hit us(Pha's Protection), give us WS 10 and Initiative 10(Speed of Light) or double or movement, get +1 attack and ASF(Birona's Timewarp). Oh, and those bat swarms? My archers killed them before they got into combat to make a difference. I can play this game too.

and if we look at every army out there, we attack last with halberds anyways, and with the two ranks always attacking back regardless of wounds received, why would we want halberds over great weapons again?

Tell that to Empire, Orcs and Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms and Vampire Counts, to name a few. They'll be interested to know that they should be striking before us.

you do realize you are comparing a LORD/HERO in a unit of 40 TG and comparing it to 40 GG with no character, and they are still going to be on a level playing field, right?

Where are you getting these buffs to the Grave Guard from? Are they just appearing out of thin air? You're correct, in order to grant MWBD and hatred Tomb Kings need to have their characters in the unit. Vampire Counts don't need to do so but they still need these characters SOMEWHERE buffing the GG so if you're going to add in the points of Tomb King characters buffing TG don't forget to add the points for VC characters buffing their units.

and yes, TK/TP are some of the squishiest characters in warhammer,

Don't make me laugh, I'm trying to pay attention to the game right now.

This Tomb Guard vs Grave Guard debate needs to end. Both shine in certain circumstances and both can have their abilities increased by characters and spells.

I'm glad that Vampire Counts got a new book and I hope Vampire Count players enjoy the book as much as I enjoy the Tomb King book.

Enough bickering now.

Well said and I whole heartdley agree

your mathhammering went allready wrong when you failed to adjust the GG attacks with the wounds they received. IF you assume blocks of 40 (experience learns that so far people find 30 expensive enough), and no champion (honestly, who buys champions?), then we got:

TG with a king hit on 3's, wound on 3's, no saves = 30*4/9 = 13,3
king attacks = 4*4/9 = 1.7
so that's 15 wound dealt

so, you said 40 GG without characters, that's 25 attacks back. they hit on 3's, wound on 2's, so that's 25*10/18= 13.8 wounds, so that's 14 wounds dealt, they lose 1 more from crumbling. so what are you talking about? TG simply win on avarages and it is actually fair to call the 15 wounds vs 14 wounds pretty even.
now of course the TG unit in our example was at least a 100 pts more expensive, but there are more issues with your analysis. TG players tend to buy 30 TG with a prince and a tect, for instance. There's no telling what vampire players will prefer right now, but it is entirely possible they will think 430 for a unit is expensive enough (30 GG+mus+ban + 50 for banner?) especially with all that huge healing they can now have, right? I'm not a fan of including magic in math analysis, as it is too fickle and work both ways. (though everything we cast, like smiting, will have impact BEFORE the GG strike, and will reduce their attacks even further). Still, you ARE right when you say that there are lots of factors that will influence a key battle like this(like the bats, or like th ecorpse cart). The combination of bats and cart can even have us go last. in that case we are doomed of course, there's no discussion about that.

still, the typical TG unit you WOULD encounter on the battlefield would deal:
28 TG attacks, hit=3+reroll, wound=3 ----> 28*(3/2+(1/3*3/2))= 25 hits = 16.6 wounds
3 tect attacks, hit on 3+reroll, wound on 4 = ~1wound
3 prince attacks (GW at speed of GG), hits on 3 plus reroll, wounds on 2's ~ 2 wounds

a block of 40 GG would be decimated to 22 before they could strike. it would be too little, too late ( 12 wounds dealt), and would then receive the last two of the king. Both units have 2 ranks left, the TG 18 models, the GG 20 models, yet the GG loose with 8 and crumble to 12.

conclusion: we rock that one
provided we kill bats, and preferably carts, and without taking magic into account, those are my assumptions, as mentioned. 40 TG will cost something like 550 with that banner, our 30 TG block, we all know, is about 550 with prince and tect but no protection yet. buying less GG will be terrible for the GG. us buying ramotheb will be terrible for the GG.


overall conclusion: math is in our advantage, but the matchup is even enough, so that it will be magic which will decide the battle.

so you are saying a 600+ pts unit with two characters will walk over a 500+ unit with no characters...interesting way of presenting our advantages, without incorporating that their characters can walk all over ours, and they can out raise our. its laughable!

the VC equivalent would have a anything from a corps cart, mortise engine, lord, hero vamp, or many other aspects.

when you place a TK/TP in the unit you are no longer comparing TG to GG and to be equivalent, put a vampire in their. hell what about a Vamp lord with ASF, blood rage (the one that gets attacks for each wound dealt) so, 5 attacks that get another for each wound at WS 7 ST 7?

he would destroy the TK on turn one regardless of who charged, and we blow up.


seriously, you are comparing a naked unit to a unit with two characters in it? and stating that's why we are better?


hell lets just look at 40 GG to 40 TG with a 50pt banner going up with no characters and no spells.......we lose, and we are more expensive lol

cheers

I myself am quite a noobie when it comes to warhammer, but isn't it a bit pointless to try and compare units in a 1 on 1 fight?
Now i have limited experience, but it rarely happens. To me anyways. A unit almost always get shot at, blasted with magic or whatever to either help or soften them up before a fight.

And ofcourse TG and GG are much alike. But i think they have just as much in common as with Black Orcs. The stat line is quite similair.
Orcs get more 1 WS extra, TG get 1 INI extra. But they cost 1 point more. (for some extra special rules)

You could mathhammer to see who would win and then argue about how pathetic the losing unit is, but again, whats the point.

The game is not about 1 unit on 1 unit. The game is about 1 army vs 1 army.
So doing a comparison like that is leaving a big part of the story untold.

And if you are so certain that GG will win from TG, don't match them up?
Or make them more squishy or us a bit more buffed. With magic or shooting.
Because, what els are you going to do with the other points that you have available?

But that's just my humble opinion.

Also, BONEbreaker, Krael was compairing 28 TG with a naked prince and tect to 40 GG with a banner. Both cost around 550 according to him.
So as far as compairing goes, it's quite fair. To me anyways ^^

You're correct, units don't operate in a vacuum, they operate in conjunction with the rest of your army.

Comparing units like Tomb Guard and Grave Guard is pointless because you're not going to see a unit of TG fight a unit of GG unsupported; they're both going to be benefiting from whatever buffs their side can give them and whatever hindrances their opponent's list can give them and both sides can "What if" ad infinitum. For the most part, it's pointless.

Still, it's fun to compare units, especially since EVERYONE knows that the heroic Tomb Guard are better than the cowardly Grave Guard.

I like this sentence alot! LOL

But jokes aside, the bats with the Cloud of Horror rule, isn't it just models in base contact? It's not the whole unit in base contact now, is it?