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Pages: (4) 1 [2] 3 4  ( Go to first unread post )

 Feet Back In The Sand, Trying to dive in again
Yamabushi
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 06:08 AM


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Hmmm its hard indeed to theory-hammer this over the Internet.

I usually have archers to handle skinks, fast cav and archers of the enemy, I find our archers usually out shoot theirs. Enemy warmachines are handled by my casket. Again, just my experiences.

No worries bro, just trying to help here. smile.gif
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Crovax20
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 06:16 AM


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QUOTE (Myriad @ Apr 23 2012, 11:02 PM)
In my experience the only unit in the book fit for charging into the front of units solo is the tomb guard deathstar.

Even normal strength 3 attacks are more effective against the sphinx then the knights due to the armour - this is one of the silly things about the book. Massed strength 4 attacks will kill the knights a bit faster, but they also have more wounds (12 as opposed to 5 point for point).


I know the Necroknights have more wounds, but they also have triple the frontage. Worse case scenario for my sphinx is like 9+4+4 attacks directed at it. Which would result in about 9 hits against it which is 1.5 wound.

I do have necroknights, but just don't face cannons at my club... at most poison ghouls/skinks and I can usually avoid getting raped by those with smart deployment.

Against Lizardmen I do consider the Necroknights as a pick.
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und_ed
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 06:33 AM


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QUOTE (Yamabushi @ Apr 24 2012, 11:08 AM)
Hmmm its hard indeed to theory-hammer this over the Internet.

I usually have archers to handle skinks, fast cav and archers of the enemy, I find our archers usually out shoot theirs. Enemy warmachines are handled by my casket. Again, just my experiences.

No worries bro, just trying to help here. smile.gif

Archers are intriguing - I've been thoroughly underwhelmed by their performance in the past, but the price-tag for a 5+-hitting bow is a bit appealing.

The casket has been completely useless in my experience. So thoroughly useless that my opponents just started letting it through without even blinking - they keep war machines near their general / BSB for a turn or three, and canons destroy the casket before it does anything. I really only take it for the D3 power dice, since the light of death does so appallingly little.

Maybe it's more useful against enemies that spread their war-machines out, but those are not my opponents.

The more I look at it, the more I'm leaning towards Khatep - it's the earliest I can get an army to the table, since I still need to paint up many models for the more extreme configurations, and the Loremaster means I will at least have tools available, even if my opponent has the option to dispel my tools. Now to try fit in the burrowing stuff and a Tomb Guard unit... that's going to be tricky.

-und_ed
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und_ed
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 06:39 AM


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QUOTE (Crovax20 @ Apr 24 2012, 11:16 AM)
I know the Necroknights have more wounds, but they also have triple the frontage. Worse case scenario for my sphinx is like 9+4+4 attacks directed at it. Which would result in about 9 hits against it which is 1.5 wound.

I do have necroknights, but just don't face cannons at my club... at most poison ghouls/skinks and I can usually avoid getting raped by those with smart deployment.

Against Lizardmen I do consider the Necroknights as a pick.

The necroknights and the sphinx were the only things that gave me genuine hope for the army before, so I'm not quite so keen to drop either one right now. Also, we only play take-all-comers at my club, so I don't try to tailor my lists (doesn't help in a tourney situation if all you've been playing are tailored lists, and you now have to fight without that fore-knowledge).

I have yet to face anything where I've regretted taking Necroknights, although I have on occasion regretted burying them... (was a nice idea at the time, but I'm not going down that road again).

As an aside, I've been considering a King leading a unit of sword-and-board skeletons purely for watchtower-duty. This would remove the need for Tomb Guard, freeing up points for the pretty toys. Anyone have much experience with this? Are skeletons as unsalvagable as they seem, or is this actually a viable way to play them?

und_ed
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Crovax20
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 07:06 AM


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QUOTE (und_ed @ Apr 24 2012, 12:39 PM)
The necroknights and the sphinx were the only things that gave me genuine hope for the army before, so I'm not quite so keen to drop either one right now. Also, we only play take-all-comers at my club, so I don't try to tailor my lists (doesn't help in a tourney situation if all you've been playing are tailored lists, and you now have to fight without that fore-knowledge).

I have yet to face anything where I've regretted taking Necroknights, although I have on occasion regretted burying them... (was a nice idea at the time, but I'm not going down that road again).

As an aside, I've been considering a King leading a unit of sword-and-board skeletons purely for watchtower-duty. This would remove the need for Tomb Guard, freeing up points for the pretty toys. Anyone have much experience with this? Are skeletons as unsalvagable as they seem, or is this actually a viable way to play them?

und_ed

I don't really tailor my Tomb King list, but I do keep in mind my local meta when building armylists. Since my local meta doesn't have much that really threathens warsphinxes their percieved value goes up for me.

Last tournament I attended at the club featured 0 cannons! So for me the Warsphinx just wins out due to the way my club meta is working out.

Having a King lead a unit of skeleton warriors is a bad idea, you will be better off saving 70 points and having a prince lead it. I always have a 30 strong skeleton sword and board + LA in my 1500 and lower point lists. The weaponskill 5 from the prince really makes a difference, but I don't see any added value in a tomb king.

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und_ed
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 07:28 AM


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There's three reasons I'm leaning towards the king:

1) WS 6 helps me tackle elites like Hammerers, Longbeards, and executioners (all quite popular here), and even hurt elite high elves (although all special-choice elves will probably murder this unit anyway)

2) higher magic item allowance lets me make him both survivable and killy, giving the unit a bit more versatililty.

3) much better attacking stats are necessary since the unit is intended as a watchtower-unit, and I need to be able to knock a small core unit out of the tower.

If I was just looking to get the biggest bang for my King's buck, I'd throw him into a chariot unit without hesitation.

The big question is whether this is even feasible for a watchtower-unit, since I'm putting so much pressure on troops that really don't hurt much of anything. I'm not sold on skeletons, but the idea has some merit.

-und_ed
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Crovax20
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 07:48 AM


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Weaponskill 6 won't help enough against those elite units with strength 3 skeletons.

Tomb prince is already has good survivability and you toss a greatweapon on him and he hits hard as well.

Weaponskill 6 isn't the first attacking stat I'd be looking at when clearing out a building. I'd be looking at high strength attacks as well.

Imho you'd be better off with a prince and spend some points on a catapult to bombard the watchtower.
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und_ed
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 07:52 AM


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A catapult? Now that's just crazy-talk right there.

I had a straight year playing with the daft thing back in 6th ed, and it did something useful in precisely one game all year (and that was back when it could fire twice with incantations). I'm still shocked that people rate these things.

Seems no love for the King, and the Prince really doesn't pack enough punch for the job (three attacks at WS5 really doesn't do much), so back to the drawing board...

-und_ed
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Myriad
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 08:08 AM


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I've got 3*10 skeletons tend to find their way into my list, and often surprise me, especially with a prince (normally with flail). Not a heavy hitter though, and unlikely to drive much out of a watchtower. I think the king is good enough to take if you want one.

Catapults, catapults. In theory the chance to deal D6 flaming wounds to certain targets is golden. Whenever I put them back in my list they miss though.

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Sleboda
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 08:35 AM


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Just an overall note to und_ed -

Your views and mine are similar in so many ways. Good luck winning any games. smile.gif


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und_ed
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 09:25 AM


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QUOTE
Just an overall note to un_dead -

Your views and mine are similar in so many ways. Good luck winning any games. 


As long as I don't get cursed with your dice, I'm hoping so too tongue.gif

I was actually hoping you'd weigh in with some ideas, since I saw you've got the same issues with the army as I do (More staying-power, evidently, but the same issues), and thus likely face a similar gaming environment.

What I found so frustrating with TK last time around was the ease with which I could beat my own army if I traded places with my opponent - I had roughly a 60% win rate with 'em at the time (which without trying to sound like a D-Bag is a shockingly low win rate for me), but in every single game I won I saw at least two-to-three opportunities that my opponent missed to easily crush my army. A solid battle-plan should allow you to win even when the dice are unlucky, and your opponent plays well, and I'm desperately hunting for that sweet spot with TK.

-und_ed
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Sleboda
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 10:14 AM


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QUOTE (und_ed @ Apr 24 2012, 09:25 AM)
A solid battle-plan should allow you to win even when the dice are unlucky, and your opponent plays well....

That's sort of the place at which the disappointed among us have arrived. It's been talked about elsewhere, but the summary is:

The factors that make up a successful army are a list that is well designed, a deployment plan that is well conceived, tactics that are sound, and a little luck on your side.

With other armies, you can have a few of these things go bad, but as a good general you can overcome them.

With TK, your army has to be perfectly designed, your deployment spot on, your tactics excellent and luck totally on your side. Any one thing goes wrong, and it's lights out. There is no forgiveness, and while some say that this makes it a "tactician's army" or an army that "once you learn how to use it very well, can work" I say that those are just codes for "The army is demonstrably worse than others. Good luck."


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und_ed
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 10:53 AM


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QUOTE (Sleboda @ Apr 24 2012, 03:14 PM)
There is no forgiveness, and while some say that this makes it a "tactician's army" or an army that "once you learn how to use it very well, can work" I say that those are just codes for "The army is demonstrably worse than others. Good luck."

See, This notion of a "tactician's army" is one I would dispute. The new Empire are a "tactician's army" - an army with the tools to reward solid tactical play. The old TK book was a tactician's army, allowing you to apply force exactly where needed with scalpel-like precision.

OK.
Stop.
Breathe.

I don't want to turn this into a complaining thread - I've done enugh of that since the book was released. (And I've seen how you, Sleboda, gets uncharitably flamed when decrying the book's shortcomings, and I don't want that to derail the thread either).

The idea here is to recognise the book's obvious shortcomings, and try to somehow get a usable take-all-comers approach in spite of them. I love the new minis, I've done probably my best painting-work yet on them, so damnit I WILL make them workable! My Will Be Done!!

-und_ed
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Bad Mojo
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 11:31 AM


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Here's my two cents on a few thoughts.

Large units of chariots (6+) - way overrated barring a Tomb Prince/King in it (then it's mostly overrated). The unit runs into a unit, smashes and wins by a lot. Since you have maybe 2 ranks, if they hold for any reason, you are going to get flanked and die. At 4 wide, you get 4d6 hits (which is good), and 8 horses at S3, and 12 S4 attacks. Cannonballs through the flank will tear the unit apart. Go with unit sizes of 3 or 4.

Magic support. Unfortunately, magic-lite really doesn't work with this army barring Khalida builds. Nehekara magic is a mediocre threat lore. It has some good utility spells but to swing combats, you probably need another lore to back it up and protect your guys. That way, some of your spells go through. Light has Speed of Light and Pha's Protection which are excellent. Barona's is pure offense. Death has Soulblight and the occasional Purple Sun. Your magic support will heavily influence your expected combat results. The Hierotitan allows you to get away with some dodgy casting attempts. You can get away with 2 dice castings on spells of up to difficulty 12.

Entombed armies require lots of redundancy, which also increases the odds of something horrifically going wrong. The other drawback is that if your opponent goes first, there's a chance he'll be on you before your guys come out. Ogres and Brettonians can do that fairly easily.

Another build, which I (and now Sleboda?) have enjoyed is playing 4 plus monster units. Running around with Colossi, Titans, and Sphinxes is quite amusing. You're quite susceptible to cannons and purple sun but comes with the territory.
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und_ed
Posted: Apr 24 2012, 12:41 PM


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Thanks for the input, mojo.

I'm actually very happy with the big chariot units - mainly because they actually do what's promised on the tin, namely deliver heavy damage but not able to crack steadfast units, while having enough wounds to still do their job after being shot. That's exactly the kind of redundancy I can work with.

You make a good point on the magic lores - I was initially thinking a level 4 (probably khatep) supported by a level 2 in order to have two wizards with access to the movement spell, but the notion of a level 4 light to drive home the awesome buffs is actually well worth the effort. My only objection is that by the time I'm finished with magic, I'm spending 900 points to do what a 400-point Slann or Dagger-sorc does. It kills me every time I looks at that points-comparison.

construct-heavy is definately on my list of things to try, as soon as they're painted (still have another couple of snake-knights to paint, giving me the option of a unit of 6 or two units of four, need to paint up stalkers, and a necrosphinx). It will happen, but I refuse to put unpainted minis on the table. (I swear by everything holy, I'm not a Sleboda smurf account).

Entombed has me most intrigued, since the enemy cannot shoot the interference units before they arrive. I've just finished building my first crack at this, although I get the feeling when looking at the list that I need to choose between heavy magic and sneakiness, but here it is anyway, Mark I of my TK resurgence attempt:

Lords:
Khatep
King, Armour of silvered Steel, Talisman of Preservation, Great Weapon.

Heroes:
Liche Priest, Dispel Scroll, Nehekharan Lore

Core:
8 x Chariots, Banner, Muso, flaming banner
10 x skelly archers
41 x Skelly warriors, Banner Muso

Special:
4 x Necro Knights, Banner
Warkitty, Fiery Roar
2 x Tomb Swarm
1 x Scorpion
1 x Scorpion

Rare:
Hierotitan
Casket

So the idea's obviously to play interference / warmachine-hunting with the buried troops, first to arrive go hunting, the latecomers play interference. If stuff gets close enough, combo-charging with the sword-and-boards (plus king) and either snakes, kitty or sphinx should send most units packing, and with the redundancy in combat multipliers I can send one or two off to go secure a flank.

Lots of holes, but seems to at least have a coherent strategy backing it...

-und_ed
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Entropy
Posted: Apr 25 2012, 12:21 PM


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QUOTE (und_ed @ Apr 23 2012, 10:29 AM)
1) Speedy army. This consists of only chariots for core, Necroknights and sphinxes, and some light cav to bunker the hierophant. The pros are that the natural speed of the army overcomes the crippling lack of marching, and obviously the army is very hard-hitting. Long threat ranges also contribute to controlling the pace of the game. The downside is the army virtually auto-loses the watchtower, obviously a serious problem. I've considered shoving in a Tomb Guard halberdier unit into this army, but the points are a bit tight, and 5 out of 6 games they're really dead weight considering the speed issue.

Try archers instead of TG for the watchtower problem. Archers like being in the building (if you win that die roll) and love shooting the other guy in the building (yay Arrows of Asaph!). Sphinxen can do the building clear, if the archers are just behind them to occupy the resulting corpse pile. Remember the fun with templates and buildings: hit a building with a template center hole and you get more than one model with the high strength hit (d6 I think)? which makes for fun. And all sphinx should come with breath weapons, which again get magnified by buildings.

If you don't get Watchtower, the archers are more useful than the TG since they've got a 24" range while the TG have to plod for the whole game to get that far. Shooting in support of the fast stuff works ok in all scenarios. And spend the points you save on the TG on a pair of catapults to sit with the archers. Remeber that in 8th, you don't have to guess ranges, so fully 1/3 of your shots on the other guy's big monsters are S9 flaming magical multiwounds. Two catapults, better than even odds each turn you're dealing damage fit to take out things which individually cost as much as both catapults combined.
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Daffy F
Posted: Apr 25 2012, 02:03 PM


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QUOTE (Entropy @ Apr 25 2012, 05:21 PM)
Two catapults, better than even odds each turn you're dealing damage fit to take out things which individually cost as much as both catapults combined.

Damn right. I find it hard to bring a TK list to the table at 2000pts or higher without taking two catapults - I just love having them around. For what they do, they're damn cheap - and considering the bonuses you get over most enemy stone throwers, I'd say they were awesome.
They're good at lobbing skulls at enemy warmachines if you're facing a list with plenty of cannons/lobbers, they're awesome at scaring flanking units away, and of course they're great at killing monsters. Things like the terrorgheist have no chance against our skullapults with a base that size.
Imo the only stone thrower better for the points are dwarf grudge throwers that have been runed-up (and possibly bret. trebuchets in some situations).
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Jimmy
Posted: Apr 25 2012, 04:47 PM


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@Crovax20 - Please read my battle reports as they may give you some ideas about Necro knights. For the last 5-6 games I've been running 2 units of 6 with great success. I've faced off against the Gor and Grave guard as you mention. You just have to be very careful in what combats you commit to. Light magic is key on them. smile.gif

@und_ed - Firstly well done for persisting and getting back to the Tomb Kings. I was certainly in your previous position and got fed up with the book, went and got some more games in with another army and then returned to try and work them out. I certainly wouldn't say I've succeeded as yet however I'm certainly more confident as to how to handle the army in general. Sure I've only got a limited amount of opponents and tournaments don't interest me but their is some merit in what happens in each game that we can take away.

Firstly it sounds like you're in an area with a lot of serious/cut throat players. As Sleb has mentioned our army performs 'good' in the hands of a good player with good rolls. Every other army can perform extraordinary in the hands of a good player. If SC are allowed then I think the SC Necrotect is a given purely because of the re-rollable armour save he gives out.

A unit of 6-9 knights with a 3+ save with re-rolls will certainly put the hurt on most opponents. Of course though that's one idea of many.

Just a quick one on desert wind, I don't normally like to use it. I'm not going to cast a spell to get a skill that every other army normally gets. If I need to heal or bring a Hierotitan into range then I'll cast it but for the most part it's the very last thing that ever get's cast. The last point I will make though is it's fantastic when combined with Birona's to move units into potential charge range/arc in following turns.

Good luck with it all anyway. smile.gif


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und_ed
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 03:58 AM


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You raise some intriguing points, jimmy.

I've considered using Ramhotep, particularly tempted by a unit of rerollable 3+ knights at 6-strong, but two things give me pause:

1) If I'm going to make use of the rerollable armour save, it means I need to leave both the Hierotitan and the warsphinx at home. (also the scorpions, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over leaving them at home). I suppose this would finally answer the question of how I find points for a decent-sized unit of Tomb Guard, but I'm still iffy on it.

2) He's Init 3 with T4, 2 wounds and no armour - surely any opponent with half a brain will kill him before the unit he's with ever gets to benefit from his special rules?

Interesting that you never use Desert Wind - I consider our lack of marching to be so big a penalty as to be almost crippling, the single biggest failure of our book. How do you coax enemies to come closer to you without it? The double-skullapults + archers so many speak lovingly about?

Lastly, back again to the coments on performing well with "good rolls" - if I end up at the same conclusion, I'll consider this experiment a failure. I have six armies, and not a single other army cannot overcome poor dice with sound strategic and tactical play. Going back to Sleboda's point, that's not a "tactician's army", it's actually a "gambler's army".

-und_ed
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Crovax20
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 04:15 AM


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@Jimmy

Sadly enough all my 12 battles with the new book have been at the 1250-1750 point mark and I never find enough points to run an extra wizard with lore of light. I'll try them out again once I got 1500 points painted and move on to the 2k-2.5k mark in my battles with Tomb Kings. I still have quite a few unopened boxes and it will be interesting.

I am not making the same mistake with Tomb Kings as I did with my Orcs & Goblins, namely build everything and then all my battles seem unpainted and progress on painting seem to be slow. My Tomb Kings painting progress at least shows on the table biggrin.gif , even though I can't field 4k point lists rolleyes.gif
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Sleboda
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 08:50 AM


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QUOTE (und_ed @ Apr 26 2012, 03:58 AM)
Interesting that you never use Desert Wind - I consider our lack of marching to be so big a penalty as to be almost crippling, the single biggest failure of our book. How do you coax enemies to come closer to you without it? The double-skullapults + archers so many speak lovingly about?

I was a "gotta have Desert Wind" guy for a long while myself. I've changed.

First off, it does nothing to heal units in combat, which blows. Our other augments do, so they are more useful more often.

Second, no amount of trying to get this spell off is going to make up for the misery of not marching. When the movement matters to you, your opponent will know it and stop it. The only unit that gains something from this spell is chariots, since it lets them go faster than any other chariots out there. Settra might think about taking this spell.

Lastly, while I still have not unlocked the mystery of how to force my opponent to come to me (the suggestion of bows and catapults that other love has yet to make my opponents feel the need to advance for me), I do find that if I can offset the need (within my own mind) to move much, it helps me play better. To that end, I am finding my Colossi+Titan combo flanking bow ushabti (with sphinx on the other flank) to be a fun build. Granted, I would prefer to no play a sit back and shoot army, but it sure is looking to me like that's what TK are now, even more than they used to be. The range of ushabti bows removes some need for movement, and the action figures in the army are faster than skeletons and capable of doing some nice damage against medium-level foes. If the enemy does not, for whatever reason, move toward you, these big guys can advance as a wall, going 5 or 6 inches each, and put something resembling pressure on the enemy. It works best in the diagonal deployment mission.


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Jimmy
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 03:50 PM


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@und_ed - You're exactly right, if you take that SC then right away you're limiting yourself with the amount of constructs you're going to be taking. Secondly as you've mentioned he's not that difficult to take out and one well aimed Pit or similar can chew up some points.

Sleb has echoed my points about Desert Wind, when it's critical you need that unit to get into a flank position or whatever the case maybe the opponent will identify this and shut it down. To answer your question on what I use to make my opponent come to me, currently I am using the 'bone gunline' however I am tempted to drop the catapults but then I would have literally nothing to threaten targets outside of combat other than oh so scary S3 archers hitting on 5's.

Also Sleb has convinced me to eventually give the Bowshabti a go so that's something I'll have a try at and see if they're for me.

@Crovax - That's a very good idea about not assembling something until the last unit is complete, I've done that before and got very demotivated very quickly with a grey tide to look at. I think that Tomb Kings can be pretty good at lower level games in comparison to last edition but that's coming from someone who has only played probably 3 games under 1000 points.


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und_ed
Posted: Apr 29 2012, 02:13 PM


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Alrighty, played my first return game with the TK, and have decided to keep a video batrep log of the games. So here's the batrep for anyone interested:

Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WztoMSTdeOc
Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-7Poicbr3Y

Batrep is in 2 parts since Youtube won't let me upload anything longer than 15 minutes in a single video.

Thoughts from the game:

1) I liked the entombed units. Really useful, and can't be stopped from performing their roles. With 3, it's enough that they will do their job.

2) Magic. Ugh - this was a horribly unlucky magic game for me, so not a great reflection, but getting so little magic through with 800-odd points spent on the phase is just silly. I'm also really unimpressed with the casket - it's too expensive for D3 Power dice, and its bound is in most cases ineffectual. I'm not sure about Khatep either - I'm thinking a level 4 with book of Ashur and a 5+ Ward might be much better.

All this being said, I really got crippled by that early Net of Amyntok (cast with IF, no way to prevent it) and should probably separate the two wizards if facing light magic.

3) I could use more hard-hitting units. I have a feeling I'm trying to do too much in this army - 3 entombed units, hitty constructs and heavy magic... I should probably drop the casket and a wizard, and use the points fro more snakes or even another sphinx, maybe even stalkers.

All in all not too shabby. Everything did what was promised on the tin, and I've got a fair amount to work with here.

Thoughts? Criticisms? hate-mail?

-und_ed
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Jimmy
Posted: Apr 29 2012, 04:13 PM


The Eclipse King
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Although I haven't seen the battle reports (will look at home) can you post your list up at all?

That's no good about your bad experience with the magic phase but I would advise you to keep the casket for the time being. The D3 power dice bonus is certainly worth while and the fear of that bound spell can make some opponents tremble.

Try and always seperate your priests keeping them a nice healthy distance from one another, this ensures minimal damage from miscasts and secondly if dwellers/pit/purple sun hit a unit you won't lose both your casters in a single hit.


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und_ed
Posted: Apr 29 2012, 04:22 PM


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It's the same list I posted a couple of posts ago (Khatep, King, lvl2 priest, etc)

I had the two wizards in a small 10-man skelly bowman bunker, intended to move behind the army and cast their buffing goodness, but against a Light Slann (two slanns, one Light, one Shadows) it was a really bad idea.

-und_ed
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