Thundercrush Misconception, just reread the rule

Long time ago (could actually find the topic, so it actually might be my vivid imagination; in that case, sorry for that) there was a discussion raging about the fact that thundercrush can target only infantry,warbeasts and swarms, and mixed units therefore were safe from it.

If anybody was still in doubt aboyut the situation, I just thought I would mention this: the rule states that you can place a template over the unit you're assaulting, and that infantry, warbeast and swarms then take a str 3 hit. So we see here that nobody can protect their unit by joining a character on horse to it.
I just wanted to share.

The Str 9 hit isn't limited to a model type as well, it just mentions that the model under the central hole gets hit by the S9 D3 wound attack.

... now that you mention it! madness, that's huge!

...Seems a bit of a stretch :/ (The S9 thing)
Edit: Also wasn't the discussion about how ThunderSTOMP wouldn't work on a mixed unit? I thought the consensus was that Thundercrush always worked, it just didn't affect cavalry and such.

Suppose it can be that only swarms beasts and infantry can only be hit by the S9 hit reading the rule for the S3 part of it but it only says model for the S9 section. It could be under the same restraints suppose it would have to be FAQ'd

I agree

Thundercrush Attack
"After its crew have attacked, a Khemrian Warsphinx may exchange all of its Attacks to make a single Thundercrush Attack (though it can still Thunderstomp). Roll To Hit against the highest Weapon Skill amongst the enemy models in base contact. If this Attack hits, place the small template anywhere so that it is touching the Khemrian Warsphinx's base. Any infantry, war beasts or swarm models that lie underneath the template (friend or foe!) suffer a single Strength 3 hit. The model under the template's central hole instead suffers a single Strength 9 hit with the Multiple Wounds (D3) special rule. Other troop types underneath the template are too big to be crushed, and don't suffer any hits."

I do see that the 'Strength 9 hit' sentence its self does not state that the model under the hole has to be one of the aforementioned Troop types, though it is strongly implied by the surrounding text.

I'd check with Games Workshop before you argue this in a game.

Ms (?) Grey once again has used stellar mad quotez skillz to support the argument!


Note the use of the word "instead" in there.

In order to do something "instead" of something else, the 'something else' has to have been an option.

For example, if you bought a red car "instead" of a blue one, that means the blue one was an option at some point. If you went to see Avengers "instead" of Pirates, that means you had a choice, and picked Avengers.

To be able to so a Strength 9 hit "instead" of a Strength 3 hit, you have to be permitted to do the S3 one in the first place.

While we're at it, we can bury the idea that you're allowed a Look out sir! roll against Thundercrush, since it's a close combat attack, right?

Champions and Shooting
"As you might expect, a champion uses his own characteristics when he shoots. If making a shooting attack, the champion must shoot at the same target as the rest of his unit - you'll normally want to roll different colored dice for the champion's shots if he has a different Ballistic Skill.

A champion cannot normally be targeted by enemy shooting attacks - he can only be removed as a casualty if there are no other rank and - file members of his unit left (not even the standard bearer or musician).

The only exceptions to this are shooting attacks that do not use the normal shooting rules, specifically shooting attacks that use some form of template (such as cannons, stone throwers, breath weapons and so on).

Fortunately, in these cases, a champion is so beloved by his unit that ordinary rank and file troops will attempt to save him - as represented by the "Look Out Sir!" rule (see below)."

Champions and Close Combat
"In close combat, a champion can attack any enemy model he is in base contact with, using his own characteristic profile, as normal. Similarly, enemy models in base contact can direct attacks against the champion if they wish. If the champion is slain then the model is replaced with a rank and file model from the back rank of the unit, if one is available. Note that any extra wounds inflicted upon a champion do not carry over onto the rest of the unit - once the champion is slain, excess wounds are lost.

Unless a champion is slain by a direct attack, then he must be the last rank and file model to be removed as a casualty. So if a unit of three models suffers 3 or more unsaved wounds, the champion is removed as one of the casualties. In essence, wounds inflicted on the unit can overflow onto the champion, but wounds inflicted on the champion cannot overflow onto the unit."

"LOOK OUT SIR!"
"If a champion is hit by a template as described above, there is a good chance a comrade will shout a warning or physically push him clear of incoming harm. Roll a D6. On a 1, the champion fails to hear the warning, or is too far away. He is hit and damage is resolved against him as normal. On a 2-6, the champion dives clear or is shoved aside - he is not hit by the attack. Unfortunately, another member of the unit takes the strike meant for the champion (normally the noble soul who pushed the champion clear) - resolved the hit against the unit instead.

A "Look Out Sir!" roll cannot be made if there are less than five rank-and-file models (including the musician and standard bearer, but not the champion) left in the unit."



Note: See any purple text in the Close Combat description for Champions? Characters follow a similar rule with one exception: They need only be within 3 inches of a friendly unit consisting of five or more models of the character's troop type. Unless I missed a refrence somewhere, "Look Out Sir!" does not appear to be an option for attacks that take place during the Close Combat phase.

Well just to clarify using "instead" doesnt HAVE TO denote an option. In fact it doesnt do so in the text that was quoted. You MUST use str 3 hits on anything hit by the template (including friendly models). The instead is used in that situation to say dont do something that you otherwise MUST do (options are by definition, optional). So "instead" can replace an option, or it can replace something that was necessitated. Whether what the original option/command said is necessary or optional depends on whether "must" or "may" is used in conjunction with "instead" (as was the case with the original).

I'm not sure if this has any bearing on the argument itself though, i just had to nitpick

Even if the thing you are doing "in the stead" of is a mandatory thing, that thing has to have been possible (thus, an "option") for something to take its place (to stand in its stead).

The S3 hits only take place against certain model types. In the stead of one S3 hit, we get one S9 hit. If there is no S3 this to replace, then the S9 hit cannot take its place (or be used in the stead - "instead" - of it).

wow, thundercrush was made for slanns...
Do we know any other situation in which you can crush a character out of a unit?

for instance: presuming that you can't thundercrush anything else than infantry, but you CAN seperately attack a plaguepriest on a furnace, can you crush him? wouldn't make sense though, but his unit type is not changed by the furnace I guess.

characters on regular monsters of cours have the troop type monster, so there it doesn't work for sure.

or maybe some mad positioning?

Is a Slann classed as infantry what with it being mounted on a planquin? Because if Sleb is right then it won't work against them.

Frogs are always infantry.

Well, IU've known some people shuffle a unit round so the BSB is in the second rank (behind a couple other characters & command group, say). It'd certainly surprise them . Also, I suppose if a wizard is hiding on the wing of a horde formation it's probably legal to place the template sideways, touching the front corner. Less hits that way though.

I'll have to take a look at this when I get home.

I have another question with it being a "template" attack, can the crush be parried?

I just imagined the musician just started double timing to Ludacris's Move B_tch when they see it coming.

I'll have to take a look at this when I get home.

According to the Main Rulebook the Plague Furnace has the Troop Type 'Unique'. According to the 'Thundercrush' rule Troop Type 'Unique' is not one of the Troop Types that can be affected by 'Thundercrush'. Which is funny since Night Goblin Fanatics are also considered Troop Type 'Unique'... *shrugs* rules as written

I don't see where a Plague Monk mounted on a Plague Furnace gains the Troop Type 'Unique'. Though in most other instances of Characters being 'Mounted' they tend to gain the Troop Type of the mount they are mounted on. *shrugs* I'd look for an FAQ (I don't have access here).

Yes. Thundercrush is not a stomp attack but is a close combat attack. A Parry Save can be used against Thundercrush since neither 'Thundercrush's' nor the 'Parry Save's' description states it can not be.

Parry Save second paragraph
"This parry save only works against attacks made in close combat. It cannot be used against attacks made against the warrior's flank or rear (he doesn't have enough freedom of movement to turn around quickly enough), nor can it be used against Impact Hits or hits from Stomp attacks ( there's no parrying something that big)."

-If anyone can help clear up or correct please feel free- ; I'm still checking into it.

can a character get a look out sir from a S9 thundercruch? (since its a template)
another one - can a slann get a 'look out sir'?

LOS specifies shooting templates (with an Errata that makes it also include magic templates), so no characters should not get a Look Out Sir roll against the Thundercrush as it's a Close Combat attack.

No-one gets a look-out-sir! roll against the thundercrush. In general, toads get LOS! in a unit of infantry, since they are troop type infantry. But it doesn't protect them from thundercrush, no.

I think you guys are wrong about LoS! against thundercrush. Here are two FAQs that address the issue pretty well.

Q: When hits, other than from shooting and close combat attacks, are
inflicted upon a unit how are these hits resolved? (p42)
A: As per the ‘Resolving Unusual Attacks’ box. Note that all
hits resolved in this way will count as shooting attacks for
working out who is hit.


Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as
Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks? (p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed
as a shooting attack.


Based on these I see no reason why you wouldn't get a LoS! from the thundercrush. It's an unusual attack so distributed like shooting. How is shooting distributed if it's a template? With LoS! rolls. Seems pretty clear to me.

Resolving Unusual Attacks page 42
"There are several circumstances in Warhammer that call upon you to inflict hits upon an enemy - spells being an obvious example (the Fireball spell causes D6 Strength 4 hits on an enemy unit), as well as things like the Impact Hits made by a charging chariot (covered in the Special Rules chapter). Such hits are resolved using steps 4, 5 and 6 of the rules for shooting attacks.

The only exceptions are hits caused by close combat attacks - these are discuses in the Close Combat chapter (page 46)."

4. Roll to Wound
5. Saving Throws
6.Remove Casualties

Well there you have it thanks for clearing that up.