2400 Vs Magma Cannons

It was Battleline.
There was scenery.
He had stuff in his army, but only a few things mattered.

Two magma cannons (should have taken three, if you ask me), 2 death rockets, 1 fire demon (should have taken two), and other stuff that really didn't matter.

My list was basically the 3K list I've recently posted elsewhere, minus one colossus, a few chariots, the stalkers, and some horses.

Turn 1
He advanced.
He shot his 24 inch + artillery die + 8" template S5, D3 wound per hit flaming magma cannons at my Ushabti and killed four of the 8, plus 7 skeletons behind them.
The deathrockets did nothing.

I charged his fire demon with the sphinx (needed a 6 to make it) and the 4 Ushabti with great weapons (needed a 5 to make it). The sphinx made it in, but the Ushabti did not.

In magic I tossed 5 dice (all I had) + the bonus from the Titan at boosted Desiccation on his fire demon. That thing is S7, T5 or 6 with a pile of attacks. I needed to lower its stats. I failed the casting roll.

In combat he put three wounds on the sphinx and I put one on him (remember, all attacks are -1S vs him, so I needed sixes to wound with everything).

Turn 2
He cast Ash Cloud on my Ushabti. Now they could not charge, because, you know, his kick ass spell that costs a 12+ to cast not only turns you flammable, reduces your to-hit rolls, and makes you take DT tests, but is also prevents you from charging.

In shooting his S9, D6 wounds rockets that get to re-roll because of his engineer killed the Titan. His magma cannons killed the bow Ushabti.

In combat he destroyed my sphinx.


I conceded, something I never do.

Post-Game
I have found my new army. Two fire demons. Three magma cannons + death rockets. Add in hordes of hobgoblins to make it look like an army. Insta-win.

Seriously. This army is unstoppable. He has gone undefeated with it, including at Adepticon. I know I didn't give you guys the full set up, but trust me, there was no way to get to artillery, and his demon was unkillable and in my lines on turn 2. Next up was the hierophant's unit, where it would have been killing 10+ models per turn...and then crumbling the rest. There was quite literally no hope.

It was pretty awful, and he didn't even take all the good stuff that he could.

How in the hell this army list got made official and is accepted in tournaments is beyond me. Compare it to TK and is a very bad joke.

If it is so OP then you should also not be bothered about losing to it. It'll pop up on organisers radars soon enough.

I am rather confused as to what army you were playing against though. I notice something about hobgoblins which made me think Orcs & Gobbos and I read something about engineer which suggests empire.

Sounds nasty though, bah! Next time!

Sad that you take it like that, because that is just not true. I guess it's what happen when you run into something you know nothing about.

I suggest you to go to chaos-dwarfs.com and look at some battle reports there to get a clue of what you are fighting and how to handle those things.

=> With my luck, it will be banned juuuuuust after I have bought, built, and painted mine.

=> Chaos Dwarfs.

They get:
- powerful wizards who have dwarf stats
- high movement rate, multi-wound, awesome combat troops (bull centaurs)
- several long range, high Strength, multi-wounding, (can be) magical war machines with flame templates or pie plates
- a fast greater demon that does flaming damage to stuff touching it and is immune to S3 attacks, has frenzy that gives it D3 more attacks, etc etc etc
- fast cav
- cheap blocks
- tough blocks
- and so on...all for waaaaaay cheaper that it should be. Seriously, those magma cannons should be 250 each, but they are 145.

It's literally the best army out there. There's nothing it can't do.

@Far2Casual -
I knew they were good, just not that good. I mean, really, there was literally no possible way to win that game (other than his stuff blowing up on its own). Nothing in the army can stop the fire demon, and those machines tear huge holes in the army with every shot. You can't get to the machines because he has enough cheap stuff to screen them. The machines don't blow up because of the engineer. His spells are amazing. He's a dwarf with better guns, better movement, better versatility, and absolutely none of the traditional stunty weaknesses.

I'll check out their forum, but I seriously doubt that any player with anything close to a clue could lose with that army, barring stupid-bad luck.

Okay, I think he did the magma cannon wrong. It's max range is 24", but otherwise fires exactly like a cannon. So, he picks a spot within 24", rolls an arty for the initial impact and then places the template along the direction of fire. It's simply a better Dwarfen cannon (as all self-respecting Dwarf cannons are flaming, no?). He got lucky to kill off 4 Ushabti.

The Deathshrieker rockets aren't all that. It's only S3, 5" blast, flaming, or S8, no blast, D6 wounds. If it's 24+" away, it's a 5+ to-hit since they're only BS3. The Daemonsmith ability only allows them to reroll one Scatter or Arty dice per turn, and since the Demo rocket uses the BS instead of scatter it's no help there.

The K'daai must take Toughness tests every turn from 2 onwards, and each time they fail they suffer D3 wounds with no saves. True, you do need S5 or any magical Strength to wound it (unless its toughness is lowered) and it's practically immune to Lore of Light (another nail in that coffin). It's also a hefty 325 points. It's leadership is average and it has a 4+ ward. So what to do about it? Stalkers, the Casket, Death magic, Ushabti bows; there are plenty of ways to kill it. Once it gets into combat (and can easily do it turn 2), you're toast, pun intended. So, kill it before then with all the above (well, except the Stalkers, unless you went first, which is always a good thing).

Their wizards are magical Dwarfs. Aside from that, they have more side-effects to miscasting than anyone else (and since you always miscast...). Okay, Ash Storm should have definitely been the #5 spell and been an 18 to cast, but oh well. Their basic sorcerer is 95 pts for a lvl1 and can only take Fire, Metal, and Death. Their Lord-level caster is only a 3 and starts at 265; if you want a lvl 4 it's a minimum cost of 300 points, and that's before any items or mounts.

150 or so hob-goblins eh? Sounds like fun, though obviously rather lame. Entertainingly, on a 1 they could flee off the board any turn, and on a 6 they suffer D3 wounds. Animosity...it happens!

If it makes you feel better, you still only had about 50/50 odds to get that desiccation. It's stupidly hard to get for how little it does!

Bull Centaurs aren't that great either. They're faster and slightly tougher than Ushabti with a better armor save, but have fewer attacks. To have anything other than a sword, it's a minimum +5 per model investment. Should they have started at 45-50? Probably.

EBtS units?

Despite what you think, the army does suffer from a few bad matchups. Mounted characters with a 2+ ward against flaming attacks are fairly effective against Kdaii Destroyers.

That brings us: Brettonians, who are very effective against Chaos Dwarves due to high armor saves and 5+ ward saves throughout the army. A lance can grind through Kdaii Destroyers with combat resolution.

VC can absolutely crush Chaos Dwarves if it is has lots of Ethereals. The Kdaii destroyer's attacks are not magical despite all of those special rules.

WOC would also be difficult for them since they have lots of 3+ ward saves and mounted dudes.

As for Tomb Kings, Magma Cannons love monstrous infantry. On the flip side, I've had very good results (I lost by 200 VP when my EBtS Knights misfired and decided to give my opponent the victory instead) against Magma Cannons.

I used 30 archers to shoot at their magma cannons, which have to be near the front lines in order to be within 3" of their Sorcerers. I'm just shooting for 6s and over time, I get them. Ash storm does nothing to the unit since -2 to hit might as well be -2000.

Meanwhile, Sphinx on Destroyer is a very good idea. Not getting the 22 for d3 was unfortunate. Just -1/-1 would've been huge. -3/-3 would've put the Destroyer at risk of killing itself.

As for magic, it depends. Spirit Leech is best against the Destroyer and useless against LD9 dwarves. The other spells are all pretty good. Light doesn't have much to offer.

Thanks for the thoughts. Responses:

Magma cannon. Mark a spot up to 24". Roll artillery. Could be up to 10. Add in the 8 inch length of the template. That's effectively a 42" range. D3 wounds each. S5 vs T4 Ushabti. The template lands on 6 guys, wounds 4 of them. They take D3 wounds per guy. Not really all that hard for a pair of magma cannons to wipe out 8 Ushabti, actually.

Why would the magma cannons need to be near the front lines? His weren't and they did great.

Rockets. They don't use BS to hit. Place the marker. Profit. One dead Titan.

Destroyer. If you don't get past Turn 2, that Toughness test hardly matters. It's Ld doesn't matter. He's Unbreakable. Spirit Leech will be stopped.

300 point wizard. Worth every point.

Bull Centaurs. Speed kills. Turn 2 and they are whacking your lines with S6 attacks. Ouch.

Entombed to kill machines. If you surround them with clouds of hobgoblins, you can't get to them. Also, if the game is over before you get to roll for them, they don't help much.

The Sorcerers allow them to re-roll the artillery dice like Empire Master Engineers. Otherwise they are susceptible to misfires.

As for the Rockets, they are as accurate as SSCs. It still scatters although it does not home back onto the target. We all know how reliable that is...

Death magic gives them trouble, especially between Spirit Leech and Purple Sun. It's a tough matchup (for TK, what isn't?).

The Centaurs are susceptible to missing and generally not that great. 2A at 50 points is quite mediocre.

Anyway, it's a relatively new army and so without experience, the army can be fairly overwhelming. This also assumes he is playing the rules correctly.

For example, Hobgoblin animosity if they aren't within 6" of a Dwarf. Dwarves can only join dwarves. Rocket does scatter. Kdaii takes toughness tests every turn starting T2. When he miscasts, he takes a toughness test. Kdaii takes 3d6 hits to the face with Banishment.

Ah okay I see it now. It basically works like a no-blast stone thrower. It's not an auto-kill in any case.

Aren't Light DD spells flaming though? So it gets a 2+ against it?

His wizard/engineer stayed with the machines. He scattered with one rocket, re-rolled scatter, and got the Titan hit he wanted, doing 4 wounds. The next rocket landed on target, he rolled his 2+ to wound, and I took off the Titan.

As he pointed out, he's got a one-third chance to land on target to begin with, and then a one-third chance to eliminate the other two-thirds. That's pretty good. Certainly better than the SSC.

Also, remember that he has several deadly machines, some in different categories, so he can take a ton of them to make up for oopses. We get two machines. Total. He gets more 'reliable' just through quantity.

Just Shem's Burning Gaze (the Signature Spell). 'Net of Amyntok' and 'Banishment' do not count as Flaming Attacks according to the Main Rule-book.

Only Burning Gaze, Banishment does not say anything about being flaming
Edit: AegisNinja D;

Also, yes the K'dai is Unbreakable, but it is also unstable. It's a tough matchup for us since our main weapon against monsters don't work well against it (2+ ward vs SSC, high Initiative and a 4+ ward for stalkers). Keep in mind it's frenzied though so you can put stuff in the way and mislead it and with luck set it up for a flank/rear charge with a Necrosphinx (Which has a decent chance of putting a wound or two at it from combat res alone at that point.), but yes Chaos Dwarves are one helluva matchup for us.

This post has been edited by RejjeN on May 24 2012, 12:58 PM

Frenzy is not a drawback for him. It gives him up to 3 more attacks, and since he moves 9 (march 18) he will be able to have his choice of things to charge in turn 2.

As to the Necrosphinx, the demon is S7. He needs 3+ to hit the sphinx with his 7-9 attacks. That's 5-6 hits and 2-3 wounds (plus maybe one from the fire skin thing) before the sphinx swings. The sphinx hits on 4+ with his 5 attacks, and needs 6's to wound. It's not good math for the Necrosphinx, who could very well be dead before he ever gets to swing.

Sheesh Joe, complain much? Chaos Dwarfs are not all that. As said before they suffer greatly against VC. And the vast majority of their troops have a hefty price tag.

The Kadaii destroyer is also vulnerble to poison, which our knights or Khalida have. It is also vulnerable to dessiccation.

As for the Magma Cannons, they are very good but they should be for 170 pts a pop. Try shooting them with SSCs and/or bows ... or casket/magic them.

TK are not CD whipping boys ... we do have tools.

You have read my posts before, right?

=> True, but that's fine. You don't need many of them. You really only need about 10 models for the army to work. The rest of the models are filler/screens/disposable.

=> True. Now, if only Knights would live to swing at it. And if only tournaments were ok with Special Characters.

=> Agreed. Too bad the CD player will know this and scroll the one chance you get to cast it before the Destroyers are crushing the TK lines.

=> 145. They should be 250.

=> Casket vs high Ld...nope. SSCs that you have two of while he has 6+ machines to kill them with...better hope for a hell of a great 1st turn. Bows...that are out of range. Nope again.

These are all things that got thought about last night, and shot down. There's a reason for my negativity on this one. I've lost plenty of times to other armies, sometimes even quickly, like this one, but I've always been able to see how to counter for the next game. Not this time. If my opponent has CD as his only army, I'll suggest we take in a movie instead of playing a game. There hasn't been an army like this since SSAD, and this is waaaaay worse.

I thought K'daai were immune to poison because of the nature of the rule? 6's become 5's means no poison?

Stupid question but haven't Chaos Dwarfs not been an official army since an edition or two ago? Our scene here has nothing with Chaos Dwarfs. Or is it through forge world?

Chaos Dwarfs are 100% official again as of the Tamurkhan book. Now if only our giant scarab from Monstrous Arcana got the same treatment...


@Veritas - Poison is on the to-hit roll. The demon gives a -1 to-wound.

I had a similar experiece with Chaos Dwarfs as reported in my blog here

http://plastickrak.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/...le-reports.html

However I came out seeing all the obvious weaknesses and knew where I went wrong (and in this case how I threw the game away)

Chaos Dwarfs are not overpowered, and no way unbeatable. In a typical 2400 point list they can only get a Level 4, a level 1, a BSB, 2 units of 20 hobgoblins, a unit of 28 dwarfs, 1 Ka'daai, 1 earthshaker, 1 magama cannon, 1 rocket, and a unit of Bull centaurs. Thats a VERY small army.

How to deal with a Ka'daai? Casket of souls, Poison, banisment, combat resolution, Death magic, or just redirect the damn thing! it is frenzy and only LD 8 (so on average it will take 1-2 wounds from light of death)

The real nasty combo is Ash storm + magma cannon.... goodby monsterous creatures.

There artillery is really easy to deal with, just like any other armies. Simply shoot it with your archers. 6's wound. To far away? well thats what catapults are for. Horse archers can charge them. Tomb Scorpions/sepultural stalkers anyone? So many ways. Chaos Dwarfs have no way to shield them from so many threats

Chin up Sleb. Its not the end of the world. Yet. We still have a few more months for that

Nope, they are not immuned. A natural roll on 6 to hit auto-wounds. There is no roll on the table to wound, so the -1 does not even come into play.

@sleboda : Frenzy is a factor for a model that has Ld8. He will be out of BSB reroll. If he fails his frenzy test once, he has to charge, then to overrun. Do that twice and he's off the board and for 4 turns he'll do nothing at all. His huge base size means he is also easy to block (he doesn't fly), and you can deny him some routes using terrains.

Otherwise yeah, with Banishment, Spirit Leech, Soulblight, Dessication and the Casket of Souls TK have almost all the spells in the game that work best on him. Redirect him with chaff into your sphinx and with a -1 to his S he'll have to wound them on 6s lke everyone, and he's going to be mostly fine with some minor healing.

On the side note, even if it's not the subject, Chaos Dwarves have also very hard matchups against Empire or Dwarves because they have no cannons and the rockets are only S8 (so only wound machines on 3+).

Not that it matters but I don't think ash cloud effects our shooting, the only thing that effects our shooting is Miasma through the BS reduction no other shooting 'modifiers' are applicable.

Sleb, I don't know if you've got the book or read it however I'd disagree by saying they can get cheap blocks, they're a very high priced army points wise and dollars wise, cheap hobogoblins sure but thats where it stops.

Sucks about the loss but admittedly I've never won my first game against a new army.

It's surprising to me that they would let forgeworld make there own army/book when GW can't keep the armies they have current, or balanced.

I am very curious as to this player's 3000 point list that you played against, and the list that you used?

Magma cannons and Destroyers are very good, I'll give you that, but the rest of the list is incredibly overpriced and Chaos Dwarfs are in NO way unbeatable. This sounds like you made a jump to reaction about losing a game to an army you weren't familiar with/prepared to face. We have two folks at my club here that use the list and I am very familiar with facing them.

Here are some typical 2500 point Chaos Dwarf lists, none of which I am afraid of in the least bit with my Tomb Kings.

Sorcerer-Prophet: Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Lore of Hashut
Infernal Castellan: BSB, Mask of the Furnace
Demonsmith: Dispel Scroll, Lore of Fire
Demonsmith: Lore of Metal
Hobgoblin Khan: Wolf, Light Armor, Spear, Shield

28 Infernal Guard: Full Command, Lichbone Pennant
20 Hobgoblins: Full Command, Bows, Shields
20 Hobgoblins: Full Command, Bows, Shields

Magma Cannon
Deathshrieker
Deathshrieker
3 Bull Centaurs: Great Weapons

Hellcannon
K'Daai Destroyer
____________________

LORDS
Sorceror Prophet - 375
Enchanted Shield, Earthing Rod, Talisman of Preservation, Level 4 (Hashut)

HEROES
Daemonsmith - 155
Dispel Scroll, Level 2 (Fire)

Infernal Castellan - 200
Ironcurse Icon, Mask of the Furnace, BSB, Shield

Hobgoblin Khan - 56
Light Armor, Shield, Wolf

CORE
Infernal Guard x28 - 536
Full Command, Blunderbusses

Hobgoblins x20 - 102
Standard, Musician, Shield

SPECIAL
Bull Centaurs x3 - 145
Full Command, Shield

Magma Cannon - 145

Magma Cannon - 145

Deathshrieker - 100

RARE
Hellcannon - 205

K'daai Destroyer - 325

____


1 Sorcerer-Prophet, 420 pts Lvl 4+Enchanted Shield+Chalice of Blood and Darkness+Talisman of Preservation+Blood of Hashut

1 Daemonsmith Sorcerer, 125 pts Charmed Shield+Dispel Scroll

1 Infernal Castellan, 170 pts TMotF

1 Hobgoblin Khan, 60 pts Spear+LA+Shield+Wolf

28 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, 388 pts Full command + Lichebone pen.+Naphta bomb

50 Hobgoblins Cutthroats, 237 pts Mus+BSB+Shield

1 K'daai Destroyer, 325 pts

3 Bull Centaurs Renders, 155 pts Mus+ GW

6 K'daai Fireborn, 330 pts

1 Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon, 145 pts
1 Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon, 145 pts
________


I just pulled these from the Chaos Dwarf Forums. Notice any trend? These armys are INCREDIBLY small with very little in the way of movement.

Tools I use to deal with Chaos Dwarfs.

- Sepulcher Stalkers- they are incredibly against the War Machines, and they can use their Gaze right when they pop up. Not to mention all of the low Initiative units to shoot at.

-Light and Nehek Spell Casters- Pha's protection is great defense from war machines and our own Lore is GREAT protection and offense. Dessication is a must on the Destroyer. It will flat out kill itself by taking Toughness tests if you do this. Banishment works to hurt him pretty good as well.

-Bow Ushabti- I know, crazy, but without Catapults as an option against him (flaming) the S6 bow shots will actually do a number on him. 5+ to hit, 5+ to wound. Get smiting off on 6 of them and it should do enough damage to at least make it so his "Burning Bright" rule kills him in the later turns

-Basic naked skellies- A Destroyer Costs 325 points. Put a King with Ogre Blade, Other Tricksters Shard, and Dragonbane Gem (add in a necrotect with Dragonhelm for added fun) and whatever else you want in a very large unit of Shield+HW skeletons, and send it at him. 1+ Standard, +3 ranks, outnumber, and musician, plus the wounds from the Tomb King can often beat his damage output and win you the combat and get the extra couple of wounds off of him.

-Catapults- Might not do much to the destroyer, but really hurts the war machines

-Necrosphinx- Get him in there after the prophet. He will usually only ever have one and it is likely the general and the only level 4. 3 Wounds plus all of the harsh miscast potential means he won't be around for long.

If you are in an environment where you can't tailor your list much, just try and add these elements to your list as they are good all around.


Just some ideas, I hope it helps! You should rematch now that you know what to expect!

Duh, I was thinking 40k poison. Oopsy! Yea, just Khalida it into oblivion.

I don't have my buddy's list, but it was something very close to:

L4 wizard
L1 wizard

Destroyer
2 Magma
2 Rockets

3 bulls with gw
5 wolfriders
25 hobgoblins
12 dwarfs
12 dwarfs

2400 pts.

He went first and was very far away. By the time he had taken two turns, I was dead. There was no protection to be had, no Stalkers to use, no range with bows...nothing. It was literally an exercise in his dice rolling for artillery, the Destroyer's combat, and spells. There was nothing I could do. As I am fond of saying, there's no such thing as a Dispel Cannon scroll or Dispel Combat scroll.

The size of his army was not a factor in the game, which is why I've said over and over that the only things in the list that mattered were the Destroyer, the artillery, and the wizards. Sure, there's not much in the army, but when what is there can blow you apart before you get to take your second turn what does it matter?

Also, the only movement that matters is that of the Destroyer. This combo of spells to deny enemy charges, artillery to blow away the few decent units in the army, and, most importantly, the very fast movement of a very powerful Destroyer is what makes them so hard. Regular dwarf gunlines don't have spells or fast, powerful monsters. Chaos Dwarfs do, and this combination is deadly.

=> Don't take this the wrong way, because I really do appreciate the efforts to talk me in off the ledge, but you have got to be kidding!
First off, the unit is M4 no marching. How the hell is it ever going to engage a single model that moves 18"?
Second, only the King can wound the Destroyer, and he is unlikely to do more than 1 or 2 wounds, tops.
Third, as much as the skeletons will generate +4CCR (remember, outnumber means nothing in this edition), they will also be giving up 2-3 wounds just from touching the Destroyer. At that point, he just needs to hit and wound with 2-3 of his remaining 7-9 S7 attacks.

This is a losing fight if it even ever happens.

=> If the Necrosphinx is alive after turn 1, something has gone horribly wrong for the CD player.

=> Much appreciated. I don't expect there to ever be a rematch, though. I'm not sure I want to go through the motions of a game for 30 minutes like that again.