Who Still Uses Scorpions?, still usefull or a shelf filler?

Ok, well, even just the basic math of it says that you appear 66% of the time and then, even when you appear, you still mess that up 1 in 6 times, so it's a 55% chance to appear "safely" on turn 2.

But, as you point out, there is then scatter.

If your table is free of terrain, and there are no other units between where you meant to be and where you scatter to, and if you don't scatter off the table, then yes, you can correct the scatter distance, so to speak.

However, I rarely find that the situation is that ideal. More often than not, you are trying to land somewhere very specific and a scatter can make your initial goal unattainable.

I know it's not an exact science to get a % on how often that happens, but I'll go with a nice even 50%.

That means that my EBtS unit is appearing when and where I need it to only about 25-30% of the time.

Ouch.

Scorpions for me are now piece of crap. I know we are now in the 8th but how can they do that to my scorpion? I always fielded 2 of them with one unit of carrion. They were amazing!

Now, they can't even charge before turn 3. C'mon the enemy’s war machine is raining death on me since 3 turn! Furthermore since they cannot charge on the turn they appear, they can be blast to death before they do anything, with only 3 wounds, that could happen.

So Scorpions like Tomb swarm are a big no! I gave them a lot of chance: I made the mistake of bringing scorpion to a 6 game tournament. After that I swore I wasn't going to take them anymore. I still gave them another chance and they failed miserably.

Leave them at home!

In my eyes, the role of scorpions simply has changed. it used to be a slightly underpriced, slightly sturdy body on the field, that you could entrust with a flank so to speak. this is not the case anymore.

So what are we talking about?
-If we ignore the old days, three wounds at t5 is pretty sturdy
-3 s5 attacks and a stomp, with poison and KB, this beastie has the threat of damage. the excact difference with the damage output in the old days is that he traded one attack for a stomp, which autohits but can't target a character.
-85 points is cheap, as in horarchers/carrion trash unit cheap
-EBTS might be somewhat unreliable, it also makes the scorp the fastest model in the game
-cool model ^^

What would I do with scorps?
-I would happily charge warmachines, even if I can only do that at midgame. the scorp will earn you the points of the warmachine, and will represent 85 points the enemy will not likely catch. in MTG terms: the scorp swings for about 170 points.
-I would happily charge bunkers and tarpits in the back. they won't touch the scorp, the scorp will hold them up or force them to combat reform with their back towards your army.
-I would happily throw them in front of any enemy that need redirecting, like the cheap trashunit they are. EBTS makes them les reliable, but more flexible at the same time.

OK, I think I see where we differ on this.

Scatter almost never causes me a problem because I usually CAN find a spot with plentiful open or untroubling terrain (like hills or woods, which don't block movement or charges) to place the Scorpion. Note that I am not trying to squeeze him in to a tight spot in the middle of friendly and enemy units to threaten the perfect flank attack or something. I am just picking a relatively open space in/near the enemy's deployment zone to set up a flank or rear charge on something soft back there. You must be playing with crazy thick building/impassible terrain on your tables, Sle (or 4000 point battles on a 6 x 4?) if you can't usually find a spot threatening enemy shooters where a little scatter can't be overcome with M7. Either that or you are trying for perfect, in-the-midst-of-melee placements that will get fouled up by scatter across nearby friendly or enemy units.

The other difference I see is that I usually seem to be able to hit that roughly 50% likelihood of landing my Scorp w/o misfire on Turn 2, or 75% (?) by Turn 3. You, I have come to understand, Sleboda, couldn't hit a key 50/50 roll if it stood in front of you encased in concrete and commenced shouting into your face deeply personal aspersions. Maybe not even a 75% (aspersions plus spittle?). Unless the new TK dice have begun a reversal of your fortunes... Here's hoping they do....

(My TK dice were a mixed bag last game. They caused an epic duff with my Warsphinx -- missed his Thundercrush, "2" on the Thunderstomp, snake eyes on the fiery roar! -- leading to its quick demise, but they also pulled off an equally epic series of armor saves for my Knights fighting the same enemy unit the next turn, hitting 9 out of 10 saves on a 5+. The Knights would win, break, and run down the enemy, sealing the game.)

80.2% chance of EBTS success (appear w/ no misfire) by Turn 3.

912.% by Turn 4, assuming my math is correct.

Good odds.

You're just way more lucky than I am or you play with less crowded tabels (or ones with only woods and hills).

Maybe I'll make some drawings at some point, but it really is not all that common for me to have an attractive spot. Right off the bat you are 10 inches in from the opponent's board edge and the table edge. That means you are now in a 48"x24" zone. Within that zone you are almost certainly going to find units, buildings, impassible terrain, and all sorts of stuff that gets in your way. Sure the little guy can move 7 inches, but remember, he must always be at least 1 inch away from units and impassible terrain (which includes buildings). His base is more than 2 inches wide. There's just not a lot of room to get to where you need to be.

=> Ha! Yeah, you must be way more lucky than I am.



You know, I bet my view of gaming in general would be a whole lot different if I could just plan on average results most of the time.

80.2% chance of EBTS success (appear w/ no misfire) by Turn 3.

912.% by Turn 4, assuming my math is correct.

Good odds.

Ah, yes, but there's a difference between "will appear at some point along the line over X turns" and "will appear this turn."

Each turn is a discrete event, and each turn you have a 50% chance to not show up.

The roll on turn 2 does not impact the odds of success on turn 3 or turn 6.

But why not taking Carrion instead of Scorpion?

Let's say 3 of them is 72 pts, it's even cheaper than the scorpion.

Let's look at what scorpion can do from Krael view:

-I would happily charge warmachines, even if I can only do that at midgame. the scorp will earn you the points of the warmachine, and will represent 85 points the enemy will not likely catch. in MTG terms: the scorp swings for about 170 points.
-I would happily charge bunkers and tarpits in the back. they won't touch the scorp, the scorp will hold them up or force them to combat reform with their back towards your army.
-I would happily throw them in front of any enemy that need redirecting, like the cheap trashunit they are. EBTS makes them les reliable, but more flexible at the same time.

War machine hunting: done
Redirecting: done, they are even cheaper
Charge in the back: well it's depend

But they are more reliable, they are available from the first turn and they put real pressure on the others players.

But look also at the horse archer:
Warmachine hunter: done
redirecting: done
charge in the back: no

But they are cheaper again and they have scout rule, which make them also fast.

So I cannot see really where exactly the place of the scorpion is. Being not able to kill warmachine before turn 3 is a big NO for me. Carrion and Horse Archers can do it faster.

The only advantage would be to charge a unit and one to block it one turn. But look: 3 ranks+ banner. You have to be lucky and don't get any wound back...

50% or 44?%

45. 50 was apprx.


edit: I'm with ppnoir, carrion over scorpion any day.

I do both usually (carrion, scorp). Very cheap for what they can do.

The big selling point of the scorpion is of course flexibility. carrion you place, and then their action radius is determined. depending on the amout fo drops and your foresight, you can allready react to your opponent, but the scorpion provides the ultimate swiss armyknife flexibility. another little advantage is that scorpions won't be thinned by bowmen, like carrion will, for instance.

further, getting carrion/scouts in contact with a warmachine is only a given if your opponent is inept or doesn't care. you will have to get past his/her lines and being able to do so is hardly a given. I guess i'm saying: If you say you get your carrion into a warmachine during turn2/3 reliably, write me a tutorial please.

I'm not saying scorps are better then carrion. I don't play enough with either to say that, and had very nice results with scouts recently. But I am saying that people should be able to see the use and unique advantages of scorps. If they don't it's usualy because they are stuck in the good old past.

When I can find the points for them, I like to toss one in my list. The old roles of the scorpion are dead. Carrion, and cav hunt warmachines more reliably, cavalry redirects more cheaply.

The role for scorpions is assasination. Poison gets around high toughness, kb gets around armor. I will gladly trade my scorpion for an enemy wizard, bsb, or hero. (in that order, and stay away from lords) You must "pop" the scorpion in front of the unit in question, then move directly in front of the wizard, one inch off in such a way that either the unit does not move, or when it charges, the wizard MUST make contact. You cant stop another character making way to the scorp, but with wizards commonly hanging out on the edge of a unit, it isnt hard to force the wizard to hit the scorp. Remember, you cant make way OUT of combat.

You have given the enemy a target they must deal with either by charging, shooting or magic, or risk your scorp charging in and taking out the wizard.

I don't use scorps,what with them sucking and everything, but I do use stalkers all the time and the occasional entombed knight unit as well.

I play with scenarios and terrain right out of the BRB and I must say I almost never find the scattering of my entombed units to be an issue. now for stalkers the range of their gaze with the higher than average TK movement is great, but necro knights which are harder to manuever and same move as a scorp still give me no trouble with scatter.

Partially I mitigate the terrain issue by grabbing the troublesome impassible pieces and putting them on parts of the board that won't interfere with where I'll want my units to possibly pop up (this usually means middle of the table or along the edges. If my opponent wants the impassible stuff in the deployment areas then at least I can get half of it out of the way by deploying it this way.

I also try to make it a point to drop things like hills and forests in the corners so as to prevent my entombed guys from being pushed off the field by terrain. The way I play I actually want as little terrain in the deployment areas as possible. This way if I need to use the entombed units as hunters in the backfield they can do this. If I need to pop them up in my own area to protect my SSC's or Casket from the enemy they can do this as well.

While it hurts to swallow pride and admit this you're right about letting go of the old ways with scorps. Also very valid points on what we get for what we pay, the only argument that I have against using them is still EBTS. If we could choose I would use them as fast cav hunters and to protect my casket and catapults, also swarms would return to my list. As is, the chance to lose them for limited gain(in my eyes) makes them too risky to include. I will share the obligatory story of my first 4 games with the new book. Two scorps and my slightly updated army against, two dwarf gunlines an empire gunline and a balanced orc list. In two of the games I lost one scorp to not coming up and in three before they had a chance to charge they were shot down by swift reforming guns or a cannon. The game against the orcs was awesome and very fun even though I still got stomped but the one scorp that made it to where I wanted it to go then proceeded to not kill his BSB and die to combat res. Now don't get me wrong this is bad luck but it did show me that they couldn't be relied on anymore and only soft targets are now valid. Tactics are changing and I am reading what is working for others and maybe next month I'll put away my Dogs of War and try them again.