So Demons..., As if they didn't have enough...

So demons got an update. Biggest thing is they get a new super chariot (2d6+1) aaand the soul grinder. Yes that big 40k monstrosity (literally). So what do you all think? Thoughts, comments, rants, advice. Feel free.

Meh. Deamons used to be the hotness back in 7th -now they're not.

Most armies have access to a chariot of some description, and 8th ed has generally been pretty hard on big beasties all round so I wouldn't lose any sleep over this.

We've got plenty of tools to deal with demons.

Well, for some reason whenever they try to write rules for indestructible transdimensional entities with eldritch powers they come out a little bit unbalanced.

I'm not sure this bothers me unduly, except for the aesthetics of putting a soulgrinder on a warhammer battlefield. As Vallah says, we've actually reasonably well off in terms of ways to kill monsters, and most things that charge me smash me to bits anyway, 2D6+1 impact hits is at least quick in terms of dice rolled .

I'm not bothered at all by how the thing looks. If we have have steam tanks, hell cannons, mechanical steeds, and gyrocopters, I'm ok with the forges of hell mushing a little bit of engine tech up a demon's ass.

Besides, this just brings us one step closer to the day when the two systems are not separated. With 6th ed 40K, a lot of Warhammer has made its way into 40K. Some day they will be just one game.

What bothers me is how obvious it is that the TK got shafted by being such an early book. Mistakes in our book are getting fixed in newer rules for other armies.

Daemons were once so unbalanced, that now they are overly comped in most competitions. Like most 7th edition books, it would be helped if the book was redone. Their lore and many of their gifts are obviously priced for the 7th edition and don't mesh well with the current rules.

I wouldn't be worried about the daemon update.

A fair whack of players over at the Daemonic Legions forum are simply planning to ignore the update completely (It's kinda hard to insist that players hunt down a supplement, after all). The update really is that underwhelming.

Here's a run-down of what to care about:

Flamers: Probably the biggest thing for any non-daemon player, GW have done their usual thing of overcompensating in this regard. I'll be shocked if you see anyof these on field using the new rules. -1S, +5 pts, now takes multiple shots penalty to hit when shooting, warpfire special rule. The net effect is that flamers are going to be hitting on sixes when shooting, so unlikely to make any real impact from range, and at WS2, S4 they're not going to do much in melee support either. They're still hard to kill, but there's no longer any good reason to bother trying.

Screamers: The other side of the flamer coin. These have been buffed something fierce, and now an auto-include imo. Fly-by attack is neutered a bit, being D3 hits per screamer, each hitting on a 4+ at S4. survivability and melee is their huge buff, however - +1 Toughness, +1 Wound, +1 Strength, +2 attacks, D3 wounds per wound, +5 pts. Expect to see most daemon armies toss our their flamers and do a straight swap for screamers.

Chariots: New models, looking pretty. 3 different chariots, but all slightly sparkly versions of a S4, T4 chariot with no appreciable armour. You may see people fielding themed versions, but nothing much is really going to come of chariots that hit softer than goblin chariots (seriously, lower S chariot and crew attacks on the charge...). If you see 'em, be grateful that they're there, chomping away points.

Soulgrinder: Ugh. Aside from the obvious ridiculousness of a cyborg daemon in a fnatasy setting (No, Juggernauts and steam tanks do not go this far), this thing is an uninspiring monster and a very expensive war-machine. Expect some daemon players to field it just because daemons are so starved for shooting, but at those points it's basically a full unit of bloodletters that you don't have to chew through, so be thankful for every one you face.

-und_ed

The output of more and more ridiculous monsters and mosntrous cav will really harm the game if you ask me, right up to th epoint where they become the better choice over a big infantry block (kdaai destroyer anyone?). you known, the infantry that was supposed to be the star of 8th, which will then hav eto be pimped to matter again, with vaccinations against dwellers below or something. After which magic will REALY escalate.

it's just so disappointing to see commercialism destroy a product.

Then a fair whack of players will be cheating. Don't want to use the new units? Fine. Don't want to use the current rules for flamers? Cheating.

Then a fair whack of players will be cheating. Don't want to use the new units? Fine. Don't want to use the current rules for flamers? Cheating.

It's a tough one to insist on, Sleb.

Easy enough if you live somewhere that has lots of GW stores that bring in White Dwarfs, but many of us live in places where there are no GW stores, and so getting a White Dwarf is pretty difficult.

Now, if they just posted the rules' updates on the sodding website, I'd be with you 100%

-und_ed

Then a fair whack of players will be cheating. Don't want to use the new units? Fine. Don't want to use the current rules for flamers? Cheating.

well at tournaments they won't have a choice, obviously.
anywhere else, I don't think they can actually cheat by not playing an expansion, as long as they agree upon it, right?

I hear what you are saying about getting the rules up on the web. They _really_ need to do that.

But still, come on, GW has been putting rules in WD for literally more than 25 years. It's an expected part of the hobby. FAQ/errata used to be this way as well. Remember the days of "clip this box of text and paste it into your book" as the method of fixing things?

Times have changed, I know, but it was not long ago that I recall, distinctly, conversations in the GW offices (during my time there) that went something like this:

Person A: "Put the information/rule up on our website. It doesn't need to go in WD if it's on the site."

Person B: "Actually, White Dwarf is the universally available source that all our hobbyists go to. Not everyone has an internet connection, you know."

Person A: "Yeah, true. Put it in WD, then. Maybe later we'll put it up on the site too."

I hear you on the catch-22 of where to put the update, but the old problem has always been "you want to use X rules, you need to have the White Dwarf".

In this case it's backwards, because it's the opponents that want the player to use the new rules.

This one's gonna be up to each TO, I expect. I'm fine either way, it's a simple swap of flamers-out, screamers-in for me.

-und_ed

Person A: "Put the information/rule up on our website."

Person B: "Actually, that doesn't make us any money."

Person A: "Moneeeey!"

Person B: "Moooonneeeyyyyyy!"

Then they kiss passionately and make out on the floor of the office.

/50 shades of white dwarf.

I agree that these should be up on the FAQ website for free. I mean, if someone decides to pick up daemons in 3 months time they aren't going to go hunting for back issues of WD. I bet they will have it online after the new (new) White Dwarf goes on sale. I mean, if people are going to specifically buy it for the update, then they aren't going to make it free when people are willing to pay for it.



Surely the glossy "Offical Update" is so people don't have to print out the new FAQ rules if they buy white dwarf. If they don't buy white dwarf, you better have ink in your printer, as these are the NEW rules, just BIG FAQ update.

If people want to ignore the rules becasue they arn't in their lap, then why not make up a whole new rulebook because somewhere near me doesn't sell the hardback rulebook?

Another example is a complete change in rules by an FAQ. The Wood Elf book states that you can place your free 6inch wood in your half, 24 inches. The FAQ states "Oh man lets nerf the sh1t out of that; now you only deploy in your 12 inch starter zone." -This is an FAQ rule update which overrides the army book. Just like this daemon suppliment/update/whatever you want to call it overrides the Daemon army book.

As Sleb said: If you're not using these exact rules, you're cheating. They aren't exactly hard to get hold of anyway. I knew all the rules before getting a copy of WD... and I only play against daemons.

I love that the daemons update for 40k broke the system and don't work at all. Now THAT'S entertainment! Oh wait, I want to use the models but can't now...yay...

Ok, I'll bite. What?

Here is the issue: there are two versions of the Daemon special rule in 40k, and all of these new statlines mess it up. Here's what each give:

C:CD Daemon:
- Fear
- Fearless
- Invulnerable! (If it has a value on it's Sv characteristic, that's an invulnerable save instead)
- Daemonic Assault (The half pop in first turn, etc)
- Daemonic Rivalry (Can't have characters from different gods join up)

BRB Daemon:
- Fear
- 5+ Invulnerable save


So which do we use for the new units? Key note: all of them have a "-" for their Sv characteristic and no special rule that says they get an invulnerable save of any kind.

If we use the C:CD version, none of them get any saves whatsoever because they only get one if they have it on their statline. In other words, a major disadvantage.

If we use the BRB version, they lose Fearless, Daemonic Assault, and Daemonic Rivalry. In other words, a major disadvantage. This forces these units to deploy like a normal army and allows characters from any god to join any other unit (Herald of Tzeentch joins Bloodletters...derp).


Naturally, the update pamphlet doesn't say which one to use, even though it seems obvious that it's the latter...but then it causes the problems, as noted above.

So, what do we do? Get nerfed, or get nerfed?

The solution to this all is simple: all they needed to do was put a 4+ and 5+ in the respective Sv slots, rather than leave it as "-". Then we could follow the codex version and all would be well.

So the daemons got a lawnmower and decided it better to make a war machine. That is just so...so..oh who cares.

While the models look great the stat line really does not impress me at all. Sure for the first few encounters the intimidation factor alone will ensure the success of the chariot and even the Grinder.

However, after the inital "Ooohh and Awww" factor wears off you can expect the new daemons to fall back into the rank and file of the other daemons as the next big point sink.

There are three chariots that can fill up the Special and Rare space.

The Exalted chariot stat line looks like this; Points: 220 + 190 for Herald + whatever items. (OMG!!!)

M 10 WS 5/5/3 BS 4/4 Str 3/3/4/3 T 4 W 8 I 5/5/5 A 4/2/1 LD 7 SV 6+

Unit Size 1.
Special rules; Armor Piercing, Daemonic, Steeds get Poisen, 2D6 + 1 Impact hits.

The Hellflayer on the other hand has a special rule that could cause a problem.
Soulscent: Each unsaved would from the Impact Hit gives the Alluress a number of bonus attacks equal to the unsaved wounds, but only untill the end of the combat.

As far as possible tactics go I see this thing being a real spearhead unit. The size of this thing will makes manuverability an issue, the design sugests a straight ahead full not a zig zag. This thing is a lawnmower entended to eat core units so the rest of the daemons can go about there buisness.

In closing the model is awesome! Its SUPER awesome! But lets be realistic. How many times will these models see the light of day? Sure the smaller ones may see some good play time, but suffer the same issues as every other chariot in every other army.
The big one will see even less time except in larger, and I do mean LARGER games, and even then will probably not be a real game changer.
There are simply other options that are better and more point efficient.

If you see these things looking at you from across the battle field dont be discouraged. In fact, be happy because your opponent has spent alot of points to field some lack luster chariots and has more than likely formulated the entire daemon strategy around a few expensive units.
Stick to your game plan. Never abandon target priority and threat assesment. And when all else fails...OPEN THE CASKET!!!

If we were that smart, we wouldn't be playing Tomb Kings.