Does Anyone Feel Like The Tk Are Underpowered

After getting my teeth kicked in by Vampires 2 days ago, I have to say the situation is grim.

A Vampire army will easily post 7 dispell dice and 10+ power dice. The one I played against had a Vampire Lord and 2 Vampires in 3 units of 15 Skeletons, a Varghulf and a unit of Blood Knights with Wight BSB.

With his Bloodline powers, he could afford to roll each of his 9 power dice one at a time to increase the size of his Skeleton units, which he did for the first 2 turns as the Varghulf and Blood Knights advanced on a flank.

I got the Blood Knights to charge into my light cav unit (just what I always use them for), and they ended up overrunning into a forest. While there, I hit them twice dead on with the SSC, and killed 2 out of 6 thanks to their 4+ ward save. I got a flank charge off with my Scorp who snipped the head from another (yay killing blow!), but I still lost that combat by 2 due to outnumbering, standard and BSB.

On the far flank, on the third turn my chariots charged his raised Zombie flank protecting unit, demolished it, and overran past his line. His skeleton unit with a small vampire turned, moved closer and he had 4 Vanhel's (3 from the lord and the book) attempts to charge the chariots on the rear. He made the charge and my fate was sealed.

His Blood Knights managed to find their way out of the forest by turn 4, and between the remaining 3 members and the Varghulf they managed to wipe out 2 units of 25 skeletons in the next 2 turns.

It was brutal. Tomb Kings simply can not compete. I felt disadvantaged at every single phase of the turn.

His attempts to cast IoN with one dice was BRUTAL, and that's speaking as a Tomb Kings player. Any spell he successfully casts with one dice, should draw 2 dispell dice to have a decent chance at stopping it.

Nothing in the TK list can stop Blood Knights. Nothing. With the Drakenhof banner and the Banner of the Blood Keep, their 4+ ward vs. shooting and regeneration against everything makes them nearly unkillable. Their S7 means you can't field chariots anywhere near them, unless you have some real hot dice you trust to dispel Vanhels. Flank charges with 2 Bone Giants won't even cut it, inflicting just over a single wound on average with Unstoppable Assault. They win by 1 turn to face and murder the Giants in the next turn.

Here is a list of strengths I have come up with. I'm sure it's not complete, but it's shocking:

Movement:
Vampire Counts troops can march if within 12" of the general, or if within 6" of any Vampire. This typically means that every single unit in the Vampire Counts army will be able to march all game. Vanhels only lets a unit move 8", but for infantry, that's a regular march move or charge. For units that move more than 8", their longer move during the movement phase due to marching will allow them to get into better position for flank/rear charges than the TK equivalents. Their Ethereal units ignore all terrain.

Tomb Kings can't march at all. Ever Though they have magical movement that lets them make normal moves, to double their movement, they have to charge.

To show the contrast, a VC Skeleton can move 16" in a turn, 12" if march blocked.
A TK Skeleton can move 8" a turn at best.

A VC unit of Black Knights can move 24" in a turn, through a forest or any other terrain. The largest portion of that move comes in the movement phase, so they can move 16" to set up a flank charge
A TK unit of Chariots can move 24" in a turn, but it can only move 8" in its movement phase, so it would need to somehow make use of its magic move of 16" to get that full 24".

Of course VC can be march blocked, but even then most of their units are still faster overall, and TK aren't very good at march blocking...

Casting capability:
An average Vampire Counts list will generate at least 10 power dice and have at least 2 great bound spells (every army will have the book, most will have a corpse cart). A magic heavy Vampire list can generate in excess of 17 power dice. Every power dice generated can potentially cast Necromancy spells again, and again, and again. Such a list will have at least 6 dispel dice and all characters except Wight Kings are Wizards so can take scrolls (or Power Stones...). This means that even accounting for failed spells, the VC can be casting upwards of 8 spells in a single phase.

With a King and 3 priests, TK throw out 8 power dice equivalent in their magic phase, have to cast in the same order. The TK player gets only 5 spells (King, King, Priest, Priest, Heirophant) every magic phase. The Tomb King player will often bust out the Hieratic Jar, so for one turn, the TK can emulate a mild VC magic phase.

If the TK player goes with the LHP, Prince and 2 Priests, then he can get 11 dice normally and 14 with the Hieratic Jar. More dice, but they still only casts 5 spells.

Crumbling:
VC units can save wounds taken from combat resolution or the death of the general with Ward saves or regeneration.

TK units are allowed no saves of any kind against wounds taken from combat resolution or the death of the general.


Battle Standard:
VC BSB reduces the number of wounds a unit takes by 1 from combat resolution or because of the death of the general.
The VC BSB is either a Vampire, which is fighty and capable of magic, or a Wight King, a hero that outfights 60% of the lords in the game.

TK BSB only reduces the number of wounds a unit takes from combat resolution.
The TK Icon Bearer is a piece of crap no one would, in their right mind, take.

General:
VC Skeletons get Light Armour for free, it's +1 point for TK Skeletons

Vampire Lords can simultaneously outfight a Tomb King and outmagic a Liche High Priest. Sure he's more expensive, but it's more efficient per character slot, something the VC can more easily splurge on, as they can skimp on troops, raising them in the battle. In the game I played, the VC player had ~350 points of extra troops within the first 2 turns, despite my best efforts. So he could afford the big bad characters by skimping on those troops.

The VC rare choices are insanely good. I really think Blood Knights will beat Tomb Kings every game. If taken with the twin banners (Drakenhof and Blood Keep) they will beat a Tomb Kings player.

Overall, every unit choice in the VC book is generally better than any equivalent in the TK book. They move faster, hit harder, save better, are cheaper, etc, etc. Realistically the only advantages Tomb Kings have is the Catapult and not being able to miscast. Those are very dubious indeed when compared to the new Vampires.

The TK book hasn't gotten any worse with the release of the new VC book, but it serves as a good example of power creep in action. TK used to be, comparatively, a very strong army. I have doubts as to whether they will even be able to compete realistically against a strong VC army now. Note that the TK are still just as good against all the other armies in the game, but if you're playing against Vampires, be ready for a fight.

I'll be fighting them this friday at 1k. I'm losing my moral.

have you guys ever tried to play against them in a skirmish?! my friend started with 3 regiments of 5 ghouls and a necro, he turned all of them into rtegiments of 15 in one turn!, i had to fight that off with two regiments of 8 and a champion, in a frickin 150 pt batte!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

I have had the book for a couple of weeks (got the advance order spearhead army) but not played against it yet as I am helping my nephew learn to play my late brother's empire army and have been reading up on one of their forum - btw TK rank as one of the toughest match ups for empire over there.

A couple of observations gleamed from the 2 forums & booK:

1. new VC book is a great enhancement over the last one as were most, if not all of the new army books - older books are always going to be at a disadvantage since TK is basically playing 6th edition against 7th edition. So lets wait until our new book comes out to see if what we get.

2. Unlike some of the other books, VC units didn't get generally cheaper per model and in fact a number of them had downgrades in leadership which means that if you can kill the general, they will be hit harder with crumble.

3. VC can really customize characters with heroes getting 50 pts for powers and another 50 for magic and Lords getting 100 each - however, 3 tricked out vamps will eat up close to 50% of the 2000 point army and Blood Knights at 55 pts each will really limit other choices, so that is a potential trap. Yes almost every character can casts and can raise zombies - however, each new unit raised is 50 VP regardless of size, so small units created will be risky.

4. Yes regeneration & ward saves against crumble is an advantage we don't have, but outside of banners, most of the army doesn't get them.

5. Yes Blood Knights are tough with the BSB & both banners, but are very expensive, especially if you are going to kit out vamps - Empire appear to be using light cav to decoy them safely away - 2 units of 5 horse archers could potentially keep them out of the way for most of the game.

6. Only zombies & skeletons count towards the 2 min core units, as dire wolves and other core choices don't, so you aren't going to see all cav VC armies.

7. Carrion & swarms make great march blockers.

Until we get a lot more battle reports, I don't think we will get a good feel of how we are going to stack up.

I admit I do have few hopes of beating a new Vampire Counts player. I have a local player at my store who runs a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, with an auto-hitting Lance and the Red Fury Power, which works like our Unstoppable Assault for Bone Giants, except that the extra attacks he gets from Red Fury cannot trigger more Red Fury.

However, this Vampire is hitting automatically, wounding on 2's, and negating any armour save we could have, so that is likely 7 or 8 wounds before the Dragon gets to strike (and we are at -1 to hit them both because of the effect of the Dragon itself).

This character also has a 3+ ward vs. shooting and magic missiles (against the character only luckily, so the Dragon can still eat a flaming skull).

This character is upwards of 700+ points, which most people seem to think is a disadvantage, however I simply feel it is 700+ points that we cannot get out of the Vampire player, ever .

However much that lord costs, the Vampire player had enough points to include 2 Necromancers, 1 block of 20 Skeletons and 1 of 20 Zombies, 20 Dire Wolves in 2 groups of 10, 10 Black Knights with the "Reverse Cold-Blooded for Fear Checks" Banner, 6 DoW Ogres, and a Giant.

Seems a tiny bit unfair compared to what I can include in 2000 points Thank god some poor Dwarf player was fighting him instead.

However, Rickea, I did not know that the newly raised units give up VPs! Good to know.

Also, even though the VC Skellies get Light Armour for free, they are one point extra then ours to begin with So its the same price.

Ghouls also count towards the minimum number of core units required. A vamp can take "Ghoulkin" which allows all ghoul units to take a free march move before the game begins, I suspect that will be seen alot, esp. in armies that include a lot of cav.

Our infantry is actually more expensive than theirs; our skellies are one point more for the armor upgrade.

I could have sworn ours were base 8, + 1 for LA, and the VC skellies were simply 9 points.

No. Ours are 8 points for a shield and no armour, theirs are 8 points with light armour and a shield. All of their units can have a magic standard. If we take a King a single unit can take a magic standard.

Our Tomb Guard are 12 points with light armour and a shield, their Grave Guard are 12 points with heavy armour and a shield.

i think all my hope and joy just ran away

Check this out:
http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=40331

mi_whplayers is generally regarded as one of the most level headed Warhammer players in the world, and he is heavily involved with the studio, being the lead organizer of the Direwolf FAQ group. He has organized every FAQ question that GW has answered in the last 3 years. What he has to say about Vanhels:

That is awful. If he's making statements like this, the game is indeed in a very bad shape.

More discussion on the new Vampires can be found here:
http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=40245

For those who don't know, warhammer.org.uk is home to the most WAAC UK tournament players, and they're afraid of the new VC list. This is bad.

Tomb Kings are a candle in the wind compared to VC now.

Candle in the wind... don't be so dramatic. We just may need to have superior tactics to defeat VC.

And we're going to contact GW for suggestions for an update of course

I'd still bet on TK in a head to head game vs. VC, given equal generalship and non-tailored lists.

Just my opinion though.

Umm, you might want to question that composition. Dire Wolves don't count toward minimum core choices, of course he could just split the zombies into 2*10.

With regard to the composition, while Dire wolves don't count as core units for determining the min. core units, the new VC book lowered the number to 2 I think.

I think that was only High Elves, Rickea, I believe all other armies still need 3 Core units in their 2000 point lists.

What are you basing that on?

I'd say Vampires win 3:1.

What are you basing that on?

It is rather pointless to try to argue that a specific base army will beat another base army X times out of ten...

This is a game of skill and luck, two factors that you can not just eliminate to factor out a match up result.

The majority of folks on the forums(not just here)seem to feel that the Vampires are over the top, but in reality it really is a bit soon to say. Personally I don't think I will be jumping on the complete despair bandwagon, for I have utter confidence in my generalship.

By no means am I saying that we are not handicapped in certain aspects; the new blanket undead rules for instance, but I do not think that we are in any means fighting a losing battle. We still have plenty of tools in our arsenal, but could certainly benefit greatly from a slight update akin to the Dark Elves.

I'm basing it on the advantages that Vampires have in every phase except shooting, and that our shooting will be largely ineffectual against Vampires (not that it's ever very effective against other armies).

I'm basing it on having nothing in our list capable of doing more than a single wound, on average, to a unit of Blood Knights.

Last game I played, I actually got a flank charge off in the second turn with a fully ranked unit of skeletons against a unit of 5 regenerating Blood Knights. The Blood Knights lost the first combat and lost frenzy, but didn't take any wounds because of the BSB and regeneration, tied the next two combats, won the third, reformed and killed every remaining skeleton in the fourth combat, which left them free.

I was happy with that result. Tied them up for a long time, at the cost of only a single unit. I only got the flank because my opponent was so arrogant with them, and I had nothing to help the unit out with, as I was kept busy with the rest of his army, summoned zombies, Varghulf and so on.

If I was Vegas, I'd put the odds at 3:1 between Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings, everything else being equal.

Well, you might have been more pleased if your opponent had played that often-misread 'Redress the Ranks" rule properly.

I so often see that rule misplayed, I've done it myself as well to the detriment of my units.

If a unit is charged to the flank and managed to win combat, they do NOT get to 'reform'.

They get a single turn maneuver.

So in this case, the Blood Knight unit would have turned and formed a conga line of Blood Knights facing towards your Skeleton unit. Only one Blood Knight would have been in combat still, but you would not longer get the +1 "flank charge" bonus.

Then the Blood Knights would have had to win a second round of combat to increase frontage, then obliterated you in the following turn.

So, you would have held him up for at least another round of CC.

Crag is correct. He would only get a free turn the first time he won combat.

even still, the blood knights are a smiggin too strong.

Now now, I never contradicted that

Besides, doesn't seem to matter what difficulty of unit I charge in the flank.

Last game against Chaos I let 6 Chosen Knights overrun into a Tomb Scorpion, then flanked them with 3 Ushabti in my turn.

Chosen killed both units in 3 rounds of CC, for 2 losses to their own unit.

If I can flank Chosen and lose (with a dedicated Knight-killing unit no less) then who cares if I also lose flanking Blood Knights? As far as I am concerned they are both invulnerable.

I must note that at least the Blood Knights do not get their regen saves against hits from our SSC.

They do get ward saves though.

And we did play it right. He won 2 combats, sorry. The first he turned properly and in the second he expanded frontage.

Our shooting I feel, can in fact be quite devastating. We have at our disposal; which is commonly regarded as, one of the best war machines in the fantasy world.

With regards to that machine, I feel that a SSC is more than capable of dealing out some solid damage against Blood Knights. The DoE can get a small nod here as well.

Also I don't really feel that they have all of these advantages in every phase. Movement, yes, I will give it to you there. Magic, they may be able to fire off X amount of spells without miscasting, but you need only focus on DM mainly. Generally speaking as well, they are not going to be having obscene magical defense either, which is something we are similar on.

All in all, I think it is just as fair of a fight as any other list. It comes down to your skill and tactics as a general, in both playing and in army design. Of course luck shall be a major factor as well.

It's a catapult. A 110 point catapult. Sure it's magic and flaming, but the Bret's get one that's S5(10).

I would hardly call it "the best war machine in the old world," particularly when it's just a catapult.

If you're including "its" ability to double shoot, then I would say it's one of the worst war machines in the old world, as that's a huge points investment (the catapult itself and the liche), so it's totally not worth it.

Please note that against the Blood Knights, even with a direct hit, you're looking at 2 fulls and a couple partials, so call it 3 hits. Of those hits, 2 wound, of those that wound 1 make it past the ward save. I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that to outpace the Vampire's invocation capacities. Sure you could get lucky, but you could also misfire and explode.

A real shooting phase is 2 cannons, 2 mortars, 2 helblasters and 4 dozen handgunners. Tomb Kings 2 catapults and miscellaneous useless arrows have nothing on that.