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Title: Cab designs for big rigs


Ghost 2501 - August 8, 2012 03:30 PM (GMT)
user posted image

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Diamond Star TerraStar XL-R
Diamond Star TerraStar XL90 raised roof sleeper
Diamond Star TerraStar RX mid roof sleeper

TerraStar RX and XL spec
Weights:
Gross combination weight 44,000kgs
unladen weight 9,000kgs
*Chassis cab weight includes 20 litres of fuel, oil

Maximum axle loading weights (measured in Kg's)
Axle 1: 7,500
Axle 2: 11,500
Axle 3: 11,500

Engine
Diamond Star Q-tec2 Aircooled Diesel
Capacity: 12.7 litre V8
Bore: 125mm
Stroke: 130mm
Compression ratio: 15:1

max power @ 1500rpm 320bhp to 480bhp
max torque @ 1500rpm 2000nm
Engine weight: 1,500kg

Emissions control
Adblue injection
SCR (diesel engine catalyst)
Exhaust Gas Recirculation

Fluid capacities:
Oil: 50 litres

Cooling: forced air cooling with thermostatically regulated oil driven fan

Fuel consumption
36/100km

Gearbox options
Option 1: Diamond Star Intelidrive 12 speed Automatic
Option 2: Diamond Star 12 speed Synchromesh manual
Gearbox oil capacity: 20 litres

drivetrain: 6x2 mid drive rear tag axle

Brakes
Electro-pneumatic ABS discs on all axles with
hill-hold facility, parking brake applied on all 3 axles and trailer brakes

Tyres
Axle 1 - 315/65R24.5 radial tubeless tyres
Axle 2 - 315/80R24.5 radial tubeless tyres
Axle 3 - 315/80R24.5 radial tubeless tyres

Suspension
Axle 1
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension Anti-roll bar.

Axle 2
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension

Axle 3
Two bag electroncially controlled pneumatic suspension,

Frame
Type: Flat top constant depth U channel with welded and riveted crossmembers
Sidemember Dimensions:
300 x 100 x 15mm
Width over parallel section of frame = 770mm

Cross-members: 5
732mm wide
I-beam sections
100 x 500mm plate top brace
270 x 15mm vertical section

Bumper deep profile design including Front under-run protection


--

TerraStar XL-R spec
Weights:
Gross combination weight 44,000kgs
unladen weight 8,500kgs
*Chassis cab weight includes 20 litres of fuel, oil

Maximum axle loading weights (measured in Kg's)
Axle 1: 7,500
Axle 2: 11,500
Axle 3: 11,500

Engine
Diamond Star Q-tec2 Aircooled Diesel
Capacity: 19.1 Litre V12
Bore: 125mm
Stroke: 130mm
Compression ratio: 15:1

max power @ 1500rpm 750bhp
max torque @ 1500rpm 3500nm
Engine weight: 1,800kg

Emissions control
Adblue injection
SCR (diesel engine catalyst)
Exhaust Gas Recirculation

Fluid capacities:
Oil: 50 litres

Cooling: forced air cooling with thermostatically regulated oil driven fan

Fuel consumption
38L/100km

Gearbox options
Option 1: Diamond Star Intelidrive 12 speed Automatic
Gearbox oil capacity: 20 litres

Brakes
Electro-pneumatic ABS discs on all axles with
hill-hold facility, parking brake applied on all 3 axles and trailer brakes

Tyres
Axle 1 - 315/65R24.5 radial tubeless tyres
Axle 2 - 315/80R24.5 radial tubeless tyres (X4)
Axle 3 - 315/80R24.5 radial tubeless tyres (X2 - steer axle)
Suspension
Axle 1
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension . Anti-roll bar.

Axle 2
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension

Axle 3
Two bag electroncially controlled pneumatic suspension.

Frame
Type: Flat top constant depth U channel with welded and riveted crossmembers
Sidemember Dimensions:
300 x 100 x 15mm
Width over parallel section of frame = 770mm

Cross-members: 5
732mm wide
I-beam sections
100 x 500mm plate top brace
300 x 15mm vertical section

Bumper deep profile design including Front under-run protection

-

before people get saying that the cab is to big, There was a Freightliner Argosy with a similar length cab, and there are a few conventional trucks with similar (and larger) sleeper boxes behind the driving position. The XL-R is not significantly longer than a Freightliner Cascadia or Coronado.

Ghost 2501 - August 8, 2012 03:48 PM (GMT)
moved in thread

United States of PA - August 9, 2012 05:01 AM (GMT)
First off is the first picture a real truck? Cause if so i have serious doubts about the ability to raise the cab safely for maintenance.




QUOTE
Engine spec- 12 litre V8
Engine
Diamond Star Q-tec Air cooled Sleeve Valve V8
Capacity: 12.7 litre
Bore: 125mm
Stroke: 130mm

max power @ 1500rpm 420 - 520bhp
max torque @ 1500rpm 1500Nm - 2100Nm
Engine weight: 1,600kg


Why a V-8? There is a reason for example why V8s fell out of use in the US pretty much after the mid 70s. If your going to stick with a V8, than why so much displacement for so little power? A Good 8V92 Detroit will do 700hp easy (This is actuality, not all the listed factory numbers) on 12.1L, and 8V71 Detroits have been known to give 550-600hp easy on 9.3L.

Rev numbers are low for a V8, 1500rpm is low to middle running speed for a Inline 6 (1300rpm to 1800rpm max), V8s typically need to run at around 2100rpm to achieve max Horsepower Ratings. Torque ratings would seem right at 1300rpm though.

Engine weight seems a little heavy by about 200kg, though that could be chocked up to Emissions control.

I dont know enough about Sleeve Valves to comment other than that i read they apparently only have a 3,000hour operational life. That translate to like, roughly 195,000mi of use. That is beyond lubriciously low. Regular Poppet Valve'd engines can last for millions of miles (My dads one friend made it 5mn miles between overhauls) with proper maintenance and care. With the amount that truckers need to be moving, that could very well kill a business due to operational costs.


Also, dont air cool a Semi Engine. Thats the easiest way to crack head's and everything. One saying i've heard that can outline this is that "You can run at 195 degrees with water in it, but without it your gonna to have problem after problem". 195 degrees being in Fahrenheit, your going to hit that going up a short hill empty, let alone loaded.

Engine fan should also be clutched to a switch on the dash so the driver can decide whether or not to turn the fan on or not. At least that's the way i've seen it on every truck i've been around.


QUOTE
Fluid capacities:
Oil: 50 litres


seems high by about 4.5L, but not to bad


QUOTE
Engine spec 19 litre V12 (the big one)
Engine
Diamond Star Q-tec Air cooled Sleeve Valve V12
Capacity: 19.1 litre V12
Bore: 125mm
Stroke: 130mm
Compression ratio: 15:1

max power @ 1500rpm 600 - 750bhp
max torque @ 2800Nm - 3500Nm
Engine weight: 1,600kg


Displacement is incredibly large for a V-12. The 12V71 only had 14L of displacement, which is the only V12 you typically see in trucks around here. Again, horsepower is low, 12V71s typically pushed 800hp easy in reality. Engine weight may be ok, or it may be low, i dont know off hand cause i dont have any documents readily available to tell me how much a 12V71 weighed.

Torque again seems ok, just need to drop rev speeds to 1300rpm, and raise Horsepower ones to 2100rpm for them to be properly accurate.



QUOTE
Maximum axle loading weights (measured in Kg's)
Axle 1: 7500
Axle 2: 11500
Axle 3: 7500


Front axle is much to heavy. I've never seen one in practical use over 14,000lbs (6350kg) and most, even on cabovers are 12,000lb axles (5444kg).

Rear two axles should almost always be the same weight. 11,500kg is incredibly light at just 25,000lbs. Most are in the 30,000 to 40,000lbs (13600-18200kg) range because you never know the weight distribution or simply weight of your cargo.


QUOTE
Diamond Star Intelidrive 12 speed Automatic


From a trucking standpoint, no trucker in his/her right mind would take a automatic. While its ok to keep the option, dont make it the only one. Also, one transmission for everything wont do. 12spd transmissions are typically good for backroad or off road style situations, but are sorely undergeared (Or overgeared, depending on how you look at it) for highway work, where you need a 13 Double Over, 15spd, or 18spd.

Really, look at it this way, under 13 is good for when you spend a lot of your time off road, while 13 can work both ways depending on the transmissions, with options like RTO (Overdrive), RTLO (Lower first gear, higher Overdrive) and Double Over (13spd with a extra Overdrive gear or two). Whereas 15spds and 18spds are really geared almost exclusively towards highway work.



QUOTE
Suspension
Axle 1
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension
Anti-roll bar.

Axle 2
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension

Axle 3
Two bag electroncially controlled pneumatic suspension,
2 additional front mounted airbag can be fitted to retract
the axle off the ground when running in an unladen condition


I have yet to see any truck with Airbags on the steer axle, drop them. Regular Leaf Spring + Shock Absorbers.


Switch the rear two axles. You never raise the rear one because thats the one that always has power going too it, whereas the front rear can be switched on and off in terms to whether or not power is going to it.

Also, if your really smart, you'll go with Low Air Leaf, where you put a Airbag on the back side of the Axle, and a leaf spring on the front half, gives the best ride compared to eight bag (What you basically described) and any type of spring (Camelback, etc.)



QUOTE
Frame
Type: Flat top constant depth U channel with welded and riveted crossmembers
Sidemember Dimensions:
300 x 100 x 9.5mm
Width over parallel section of frame = 770mm



You never, ever, ever, EVER use Rivets or welds on a semi frame. You cast individually the separate parts and than bolt them all together for the greatest strength. Welds break, rivets work themselves loose with no easy way to tighten them back up. With bolts, get a Air Impact gun and a wrench and problem solved.


Much of what i said here applies to both trucks, just so you know.






Falls - August 9, 2012 05:14 AM (GMT)
the first one just looks like an extended sleeper, I seriously doubt its cab over for maintenance though. Certainly ive never seen an extended sleeper in that configuration so I dont disagree.

I looked on the Scania website breifly(looks like Scania trucks to me) but couldnt find an extended sleeper. Scania still uses V8s...LOL.

United States of PA - August 9, 2012 12:10 PM (GMT)
It is a Cabover, otherwise it would have a normal hood. Theres no side panels too remove to get at the engine, and like i said, i seriously suspect that that cab is far too heavy to raise up easily. At most you'd see something like the second pic, and anyone who wants a bigger bunk on a cabover does this.


user posted image

Falls - August 9, 2012 02:08 PM (GMT)
"Certainly ive never seen an extended sleeper in that configuration so I dont disagree."

Ghost 2501 - August 9, 2012 04:49 PM (GMT)
there was a LCS kenworth K100 in white that had been extended, and retained its tilt cab, also there are floor hatches.

have a look also at the Scania Longliner :)


Axle weights are based on Euro weights.

and too big to tilt???
user posted image


QUOTE (US of PA )
Switch the rear two axles. You never raise the rear one because thats the one that always has power going too it, whereas the front rear can be switched on and off in terms to whether or not power is going to it


Tag-rear axles is another Euroformat, the rear "tag axle", seen on this Scania 3-series in the lifted position is unpowered, as evidence here
user posted image

and this 2012 Scania R580 (16 litre v8)
user posted image
Scania still offer the tag axle layout

Ghost 2501 - August 9, 2012 04:58 PM (GMT)
as for air cooling, magirus deutz did a 19.1 air cooled and that went in an Iveco semi truck, and TATRA, the czech truck maker still use Air cooled engines in their trucks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_815

As for Euro trucks
Merc only offer the Telegent Autoshift,
Volvo's new I-shift is standard on the new FH and its a 12 speed auto. :D I think its standard on the VN as well over in the states.

and as for the engines not giving as much power as a detroit 8v71, thats a 2stroke. most I have seen from a modern 12 litre is 520bhp.

a
Scania rivet their frames. I just added the welds for additional strength. (its the Euro way)

As for air ride front, it is rare but it does happen, usually on fragile goods rigids here in Europe.

Those axle weights again, they would be the MAX weights that the truck is able to load at, there is of course local legislation to come into play, and they would set the load plates. Here in the EU, 6 axles on a tractor trailer = 44,000kgs, where USA permits 88,000lbs. (around 36,000kg)

here are the weights of a Scania R730 6x2 Tag axle, these weights, particularly the LEGAL IN GB is what gave my figure, most trucks would be in the same range as they would be designed for 44,000kgs. Currently only Scania and Volvo offer tag axles, most are mid lift instead of rear lift but I do frequently see rear-lift tractor units. when raised its a more manouvrable tractor unit as the wb is shorter than a mid lift

QUOTE

Gross Kg (1)7500 (2)11500 (3)7500 (gvw)26500 (gcw)60000
Legal
Max in GB Kg (1)7500 (2)11000 (3)7100 (GVW)25200 (GCW)44000

Ghost 2501 - August 9, 2012 06:54 PM (GMT)
and as for sleeve valves,

as various engines have piston liners betweem the piston and the bore, I have decided to use this as the basis as the sleeve valve and mounted the bottom of it to a crank and gear arrangement, similar to the Napier Sabre. Im pretty sure that modern metals technology will mean that the sleeves will last a lot longer than the 1940s ones in the Bristol Hercules.

no endorse - August 9, 2012 11:04 PM (GMT)
I simply can't, under any circumstance not involving an OPOC engine, get behind sleeve valves. I think it's a bad move, and that your wear characteristics will be atrocious.

But most of all, I think it's incredible that you're preventing yourself from using direct injection. That's a wholly bad move.

Forza - August 10, 2012 12:03 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (no endorse @ Aug 10 2012, 12:04 AM)
I simply can't, under any circumstance not involving an OPOC engine, get behind sleeve valves. I think it's a bad move, and that your wear characteristics will be atrocious.

But most of all, I think it's incredible that you're preventing yourself from using direct injection. That's a wholly bad move.

Flaws and issues of sleeve valves aside, I'm pretty sure you can still use a sleeve valve engine with a seperate DI port. I know the OPOC does it.

Sleeve valves come across as being suitable for large luxury cars where smoothness is essential and reliability doesn't matter. Trucks happen to be the polar opposite of those sorts of cars though. It's a very questionable application to me.

no endorse - August 10, 2012 05:55 AM (GMT)
Sleeve valves really just don't come across as worthwhile under near any circumstances, modern multiport engines offer all the benefits and none of the drawbacks.

United States of PA - August 10, 2012 04:16 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Forza @ Aug 10 2012, 01:03 AM)
QUOTE (no endorse @ Aug 10 2012, 12:04 AM)
I simply can't, under any circumstance not involving an OPOC engine, get behind sleeve valves. I think it's a bad move, and that your wear characteristics will be atrocious.

But most of all, I think it's incredible that you're preventing yourself from using direct injection. That's a wholly bad move.

Flaws and issues of sleeve valves aside, I'm pretty sure you can still use a sleeve valve engine with a seperate DI port. I know the OPOC does it.

Sleeve valves come across as being suitable for large luxury cars where smoothness is essential and reliability doesn't matter. Trucks happen to be the polar opposite of those sorts of cars though. It's a very questionable application to me.

This on Sleeved Valves, why fuck with a already proven formula of Poppet Valves (Four per cylinder is best imho). European Truck engines generally last less than half as long as Caterpillar Engines as it is, and Detroits typically last even longer.


QUOTE
Volvo's new I-shift is standard on the new FH and its a 12 speed auto.  I think its standard on the VN as well over in the states.


The only people/companies in the US who use Volvo's in the US are the big giants like Walmart and Weis's, or those who dont have enough money to afford a proper truck (Kenworth and Peterbilt). The number of manual PACCARs and Macks to automatic's i estimate to be at about 50-1, based on what you can find for sale on places like Ebay or truckpaper.com


As comfortable as many Volvo's are, they are Pieces of Shit compared to Kenworths and Pete's, hence why they cost about half as much. Same with Freightliner, International, Western Star and etc. Only Mack comes close to PACCAR (Pete & Kenworth) in terms of quality, and thats in a more confined terms/space of use than PACCAR, they arent nearly as comfortable over the road, but are generally better offroad.


QUOTE
and as for the engines not giving as much power as a detroit 8v71, thats a 2stroke. most I have seen from a modern 12 litre is 520bhp.


Thats still insanely pisspoor, Cat 3408s is Four Stroke (IIRC) and while displacing more, also pushes 800hp on average in practice. While V8s are not particularly common in the US anymore, for comparison, i dont know of where you can easily get ahold of a new V8 anymore, but your average Inline 6 is 550hp anymore, often times over 625hp, and manages far better fuel efficiency (2mpg more from the 8v71 to the 60 Series Detroit, about the same from the 3408 to the 3406)



QUOTE
Scania rivet their frames. I just added the welds for additional strength. (its the Euro way)


Does Scania now? Well let me repeat, You do not Rivet frames if you have half a mind, you put grade 8 bolts in them. Rivets work loose. You do not weld frames, the stress loading and twisting will crack them in a instant.

My parents and i actually have a truck, i can name two welds on the entire frame assembly, Where we stretched it, and thats not a strength weld. The roughly 40 3/4inch grade 8 bolts are, as well as the double frame rails. The weld is only there to provide a smooth frame surface. The other is on a cross member that we had to cut to make fit in between the two main rails. Neither are load bearing welds, nor should they ever be.


QUOTE
As for air ride front, it is rare but it does happen, usually on fragile goods rigids here in Europe.



And yet it doesn't happen over here in the US? Why? Because there is no need. Our fragile goods are no different over here, and yet we have no need?

I can also give you a safety reason. You lose a front airbag, you lose the truck at speed, whereas with a broken leaf spring, you still potentially have a chance to recover.


QUOTE
have a look also at the Scania Longliner


I did, the cab is no bigger than a K100 Double Bunk Aerodyne (The equivalent of a roughly 84inch Studio Bunk on W900s in terms of back space)

As for the K100 you mentioned, the amount of space needed to work on that would be lol, like, really lol (No serious way i can think of to describe this), not to mention the sheer weight of the cab would make raising it a gamble with disaster.

Theres a reason that is first one, and likely only one, i have seen in my life or will ever see.

Falls - August 10, 2012 04:38 PM (GMT)
The Scania longliner has a half meter cowling on the back of sleeper for reducing the airgap between the tractor and trailer for reducing drag...even with that cowling its still not as long as that monstrosity. So if you are going to just copy Scania truck, then just copy scania trucks.

Next you are constructing that massive extended sleeper cab out of Aluminum not thin sheet metal or fiberglass, in order to get the structural rigidity youll need for it to not crack apart in six months its going to need to weigh more than a steel track body --- but if you really insist you can assume (a very conservative and entirely unrealistic assumption) of an average of 5mm thick aluminum for the cab, and no matter where you put the hinge for the cab over access to the engine if you arent at /least/ a 250lb man it aint coming over.

Also we see that in that forum someone who likes trucks says that the driver did want to discuss the truck, and that yes he claims the cab tilts.

Thats a distinct difference from proof, also thats not a production K100, its a custom sleeper. If the driver is 6'8" 300lbs then maybe he can manage it. Basically if that custom monster sleeper is all metal Ill kiss your ass.

http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/truc...vl_kw_k100e.jpg
Same website, another K100(and like most K100 extended sleepers) the cabover is separate from the cabover, thus you can be as big or as little, as imaginable. No company makes an entire line of trucks dedicated to giants.


Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 04:41 PM (GMT)
Actually i double checked, its the cross members that are riveted.

So that will be added to the edit of pt1 and pt2.

however even if i do bring in a poppet valve option, the power wont change cos thats based on what I have trawled up from Cat, cummins, volvo, detroit etc.

DAF's Cummins 12 litre gives 520bhp,
similar to what I put in the V8

as for the LCS TerraStar, tilting the cab would be with hydraulics, like a bottlejack, possibly even electric (even some tilt cabs here now have powered cabs). to reduce the bend on the cab, the tilt rams would probably be at the rear of the cab, (like a tipper). on a cab THAT big, it would most likely have floor hatches (like on a bus or coach), probably engine mounted furher aft than normal.

remember the XL-R is designed for those who spend WEEKS away from home, and being a CoE, you can get more internal space than a conventional of the same length.

Yes your ride may pitch a bit more, CoE's do, because you sat above the front axle. BUT if someone gave me the choice, Argosy COE or Coronado, (or even a Pete 379, i'd take the argosy!

as for copying scania, I just used the Scania as one of the markers to see where things lie. ALso looked at Freightliner Volvo and Paccar brands, turns out there wasnt much between them. and you dont need the entire cab to be 5mm thick, it will be down to how the floor and sides are pressed.

oh and of the 4 trucks, 4 are Argosy's, and the other is an Actros mercedes (who OWN freightliner)

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 04:54 PM (GMT)
the Actros based Kvasir's cab box has been extended vertically, but dimensionally its no bigger than their own Megaspace cab, just the megaspace is styled differently. Actually i think the Kvasir is actually 18 to 24 inches LOWER than the megaspace as the megaspace has no top defelector, - doesnt need it, the cab roof is a full 4m high

Falls - August 10, 2012 04:55 PM (GMT)


As for Scania using rivets, I believe they use Huck Rivets as I also believe volvo does, there is a significant difference between a standard rivet and a Huck Rivet, most notably, a Huck Rivet (also known as Huck Fastener) also known as a Huck BOLT. Hucks are as much like shank rivets as tank tracks are like my legs.

Falls - August 10, 2012 05:00 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ghost 2501 @ Aug 10 2012, 04:41 PM)
Actually i double checked, its the cross members that are riveted.

So that will be added to the edit of pt1 and pt2.

however even if i do bring in a poppet valve option, the power wont change cos thats based on what I have trawled up from Cat, cummins, volvo, detroit etc.

DAF's Cummins 12 litre gives 520bhp,
similar to what I put in the V8

as for the LCS TerraStar, tilting the cab would be with hydraulics, like a bottlejack, possibly even electric (even some tilt cabs here now have powered cabs). to reduce the bend on the cab, the tilt rams would probably be at the rear of the cab, (like a tipper). on a cab THAT big, it would most likely have floor hatches (like on a bus or coach), probably engine mounted furher aft than normal.

remember the XL-R is designed for those who spend WEEKS away from home, and being a CoE, you can get more internal space than a conventional of the same length.

Yes your ride may pitch a bit more, CoE's do, because you sat above the front axle. BUT if someone gave me the choice, Argosy COE or Coronado, (or even a Pete 379, i'd take the argosy!

as for copying scania, I just used the Scania as one of the markers to see where things lie. ALso looked at Freightliner Volvo and Paccar brands, turns out there wasnt much between them. and you dont need the entire cab to be 5mm thick, it will be down to how the floor and sides are pressed.

oh and of the 4 trucks, 4 are Argosy's, and the other is an Actros mercedes (who OWN freightliner)

Ummm every over the road driver spends weeks away from home. You dont use a sleeper for an overnight drive, thats a waste.

If its powered I have nothing to say against it, I wouldnt buy it, and I wouldnt drive. But I cant deny it would work.

I wouldnt trust a Euro design for long haul because they simply dont last.


The cowling I am talking about isnt a vertical one ...but whatever.

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 05:01 PM (GMT)
And a huck rivet to the uninitiated is STILL A RIVET :) not sure how they work though. I just went a bit further and added welds to where the cross members meet the frame, so the cross members are welded AND riveted (belt AND braces).

i think the side rails will still be bolted, so things like extra tanks, HIAB cranes, etc can be mounted. Think the front also has mounts for a set of vertical stacks.

the Terrastar XL-R would more than likely have floor access for the injector changes etc. the alternator mounted near the top. im pretty sure the LCS kenworth has had its telt mechanism uprated. nowadays a hydraulic pump (similar to a bottlejack in operation) is used to tilt cabs on almost ALL manual action Cab overs. (and you dont push them back, you hydraulically de-jack them by cycling the same pump)

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 05:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
The cowling I am talking about isnt a vertical one ...but whatever.


there is the roof deflector that sits atop the cab, (most low height trucks have these top send wind over the top of the trailer), then there is a collar that sits behind the cab, these generally swing to the sides to allow the driver to get on the catwalk to couple airlines, (whicg typically on eurotrailers are in the middle of the bulkhead, as opposed to being off to the side) a typical Euro trailer has a gap of 24 inches from the back of the cab to the front of the trailer, slightlly more if it is a reefer trailer

then there are the side skirts that go down the side of the chassis of the truck. (as seen on SOME VN770s, Cascadias, Freightliner FLDs and most Euro trucks)

as for spending weeks away, I mean WEEKS. a typical CoE like a Scania R series Topline sleeper, Freightliner Argosy 110bbc, are generally between 90 and 110" from front to back, some like the Scania and the Freightliner have an engine hump, where the Megaspace acrtros is high enough off the deck to get a flat floor, (unlike the regular Actros). as a result the cab on many sleeper COE's is the same size as the sleeperbox itself on a conventional, then there's the drivers part infront of that. I created the XLR to give conventional levels of space in a cab over format. Euro Cab overs do have their limits, for a 2 week trip, they soon run out of space inside, even the new Actros MP4 soon fills up with kit

Falls - August 10, 2012 05:09 PM (GMT)
user posted image
Huck(mechanical lock)

user posted image
shank(friction lock)


while visually they are very distinct, the primary functional difference is that a Huck exactly like a bolt, can be tightened.

Falls - August 10, 2012 05:11 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ghost 2501 @ Aug 10 2012, 05:05 PM)
QUOTE
The cowling I am talking about isnt a vertical one ...but whatever.


there is the roof deflector that sits atop the cab, (most low height trucks have these top send wind over the top of the trailer), then there is a collar that sits behind the cab, these generally swing to the sides to allow the driver to get on the catwalk to couple airlines, (whicg typically on eurotrailers are in the middle of the bulkhead, as opposed to being off to the side) a typical Euro trailer has a gap of 24 inches from the back of the cab to the front of the trailer, slightlly more if it is a reefer trailer

then there are the side skirts that go down the side of the chassis of the truck. (as seen on SOME VN770s, Cascadias, Freightliner FLDs and most Euro trucks)

if you look at a longliner the last half meter of the entire cab on the trailer side, is not cab, its wind cowling.

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 05:12 PM (GMT)
are they the ones that snap off excess when correct torque is reached, preventing them being overtightenned?

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 05:17 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
if you look at a longliner the last half meter of the entire cab on the trailer side, is not cab, its wind cowling.

thats that 18" collar i was telling you about

user posted image
long line from behind.
and a regular topline
user posted image
those LEDs are not standard, the pic was from a custom parts site, the wind deflectors ARE standard however. The white Eurostar CoE behind has a similar thing designed to make the cab-trailer gap aerodynamically shorter. (see where the black breather is)

this one, if you look at the rear axles is also NOT a tandem drive. Scania's normal ops drive axle has conical ends, rather than square.

United States of PA - August 10, 2012 09:29 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
however even if i do bring in a poppet valve option, the power wont change cos thats based on what I have trawled up from Cat, cummins, volvo, detroit etc.


Has nothing to do with power, it has to do with longevity. Numbers i have seen quoted say a sleeve valve will last no longer than 3,000hrs, and assuming double that, its 6,000hrs. A Cat 3408, which is fairly short lived by American standards, comparatively have a operational life of SIXTEEN THOUSAND (16,000) HOURS. nearly triple the best guess, eight times the actual reported.



QUOTE
DAF's Cummins 12 litre gives 520bhp,
similar to what I put in the V8


Mind giving me a engine model? I can type "DAF Cummins 12 liter" into google and come up with results out my ass, none of which are useful to me without knowing which one i need.

QUOTE
as for the LCS TerraStar, tilting the cab would be with hydraulics, like a bottlejack


Come up with something that hasnt been used on everything cabover since the old Bullnoses. Every cabover has Hydraulic's to lift the cab.

To give you a little information, you have two choices for Hydraulic Setups. Single action or double action cylinder. Single Action cylinder setups allow you to take the cab up to 90 degrees, no further. Double Action setups allow you too, if you want, take the cab past 90 degrees, and literally, if you want too, lay the front of the cab on the ground, and still be able to take it back into its down positions without ever leaving the pump.

QUOTE
possibly even electric


No, just no. Once Hydarulic pumps are set up, they will last for years with no maintenance if they dont leak. Electric components on the outside of the vehicle will likely need to be replaced every less than a year. Assuming you can find a reasonably sized unit to use (Ones with enough power may be too big to put on a truck, you need to save all the space you can for everything else).


QUOTE
to reduce the bend on the cab, the tilt rams would probably be at the rear of the cab, (like a tipper)


Completely incorrect. If you look at your K100 picture, i can tell you exactly where they are. See where the headlights are? They are just behind them and slightly inside, basically on the bottom edges of the grille. Why you ask? So you only need a cylinder 2-4 feet long (1m) instead of one probably 60 feet long, in your case. Because you need to be able to take the cab to 90 degrees, probably beyond.

My dad and i have had to lift the cab on our '88 K100E up without the built in Cab Jack. You dont even want to know how we had to do it. All i'll tell you is it took about 3 hours each time. To take it up about a quarter of the way. It takes a minute and a half now that we fixed the pump, assuming we do it manually and without the air line.


QUOTE
on a cab THAT big, it would most likely have floor hatches (like on a bus or coach), probably engine mounted furher aft than normal.


Floor hatches are a bad idea because they are the quickest way in the world to allow either heat or cold in, depending on the season. Not too mention with the engine being right there, they will probably buckle in a short time period.

Plus, find me someone who would work on a engine. A oily, diesel-y engine in the middle of where they are supposed to live for a week or two at a time, maybe longer? I bet your list will be nonexistent.


QUOTE
remember the XL-R is designed for those who spend WEEKS away from home


My dad is also spending weeks and weeks away from our house. In trucks like these.


user posted image

user posted image

(My dad actually knew the guy who had this truck, unfortunately he died a few months ago. Shows what kinda truck it is though that its one of the first results for a image search for "Kenworth W900A")

user posted image

(Almost identical to our K100 save for coloring)


QUOTE
and being a CoE, you can get more internal space than a conventional of the same length.


Not true one bit. For every inch of "Sleeper" you have in a cabover (Which is effectively limited to 80inches or so for reasons we have said), you will have infinitely more comfort in a conventional with a bunk of the same size.

There is a reason why Cabover's have all but disappeared from the roads of the USA, basically the country that is king of over the road trucking (And by that i mean nearly 17% of our population are employed in trucking related industries, or something like 52.7mn people.)

QUOTE
Yes your ride may pitch a bit more, CoE's do, because you sat above the front axle. BUT if someone gave me the choice, Argosy COE or Coronado, (or even a Pete 379, i'd take the argosy!



I'll give you a little information, of the four trucks we have had (1986 Peterbilt 359, 1999 Peterbilt 379 UltraCab, 1981 Kenworth W900A, and our current truck a 1988 K100E), the Pete 379 is the softest riding we have had, with the K100 being #2 solely because of it having a air ride cab. Comfort wise though, the K100 is dead last by thousands of miles. There is no room in it, unless you are a midget it is nearly impossible to get into the bunk, there is no storage room, etc. etc. etc.

If you would honestly take a Freightliner Cabover over the most recent models of Pete 379s, that tells me you have never spent significant amounts of time around either model.

QUOTE
as for spending weeks away, I mean WEEKS. a typical CoE like a Scania R series Topline sleeper, Freightliner Argosy 110bbc, are generally between 90 and 110" from front to back


And that translates to in terms of comfort, the equivalent of most likely a 60inch bunk for a conventional Pete, or the 70 inch that Kenworth uses. Flattop that is.


QUOTE
as a result the cab on many sleeper COE's is the same size as the sleeperbox itself on a conventional, then there's the drivers part infront of that. I created the XLR to give conventional levels of space in a cab over format.


Incorrect, while in theory they may be the same size, in practice they are not. Heres a picture of a average 110inch conventional bunk for American Trucks (Custom built, because thats the only way you can get them)

user posted image

(132 inches, but just to give a idea of size)

http://www.legacysleepers.com/pdf/brochure...lt_Brochure.pdf

Page 4 and on are the interiors. Compare them to the inside of any cabover "110 inch" bunk.

Also, the "Collar" you keep referring too is a cab extender. They keep air from getting trapped in between the back of the cab/sleeper and front of the trailer, improving aerodynamic's.

They are not commonly kept though, because they are a hassle. They make it harder to get up in back on short wheel base trucks, and can also catch on the front of a trailer. Tearing them off and potentially damaging both the trailer and truck.



Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 09:38 PM (GMT)
Daf XF
http://www.daf.com/en/products/model-range...daf-xf-105.aspx

the XF95 (before the 105) had the isx in it by cummins

what i was reffering to about the cab box. take a look at say a Kenworth T2000, or even a W900 sleeper or for that matter a Freightliner Coronado or FLD,

the sleeper box is BIGGER than the Argosy 110 raised roof's entire cab box.

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 09:42 PM (GMT)
the killer for space on the Kenworth K100 was that big engine hump between the seats. it seems to sit lower than a lot of euro models.


Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 09:54 PM (GMT)
and if you are going to have a rig like
user posted image,
you may as well have a cab over. The cabs are WIDER, upto a full 2.5m excluding mirrors, (as wide as the sleeper box on that puppy). yes you will pitch a bit more than a conventional, but having been in many cab overs, a modern cab over is NOT that bad of a ride. you just have to climb 5 stairs to get inside it. that puts the floor 1.5m up off the floor, and you can still get a 2.4m of internal space. this will give you an overall height of 4.0m.

the CoE will also be shorter, and so more manouvrable in tight drop off places. many drops i see people back into here in the UK, you would never even get in with a conventional unless its a really short one. (2 axle instead of 3 axles, with a day cab, practically a yard goat). yes CoE's may give a more pitchy ride compared to a conventional, but thats the price you pay for driving from atop the front axle.

remember where you are, USA where the conventional rules the roost, here in Europe we run 99% CoE types.

something like the TerraStar would be limited to a 12m trailer, (like most US conventionals that have been imported,) now you see why we like cab over types

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 10:09 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
that tells me you have never spent significant amounts of time around either model.


well I DO live in Europe not the states, and as European models are not regularly sold in the states, yes there's a few Scania 3 series and 2 series but the 3series went in the late 90s. That leaves just FLBs, (old as 3 series scanny), and the Argosy (which underneath all that fancy freightliner makeup, i is a mercedes benz! much of the Actros went into it)

QUOTE
Incorrect, while in theory they may be the same size, in practice they are not. Heres a picture of a average 110inch conventional bunk for American Trucks (Custom built, because thats the only way you can get them)


yeas exactly what i was saying, an Argosy 110 is 110 inches from windscreen to bulkhead at the back, inside that 110" length box are 2 seats, cupboard, microwave, then a bunk.

that 110" LCS has a huge 110" box then there is the driving portion infront. now do you understand what i mean now? even the sleeper box on the T2000 or T700 is big enough to drop a scania R series cab inside it.

My Terrastar XL-R was to give the same size of space expected in a T2000, T700 Pete387 / 587 but in a cab over format. From the back of the cab to the front of the lights is no longer than a coronado! plus you get the benefit of a full width cab. Only full width conventional I know is a Scania 4 series T-cab - even the T2000 is somewhat narrower than a cab over, (though wider than a W900)

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 10:27 PM (GMT)

And as for the weight of the full size tilt cab, it would probably be no more than 2,000kgs, its about 4m long, and around 2.5m high, a Mercedes Sprinter has similar dimensions and weighs 3500kgs LOADED and that has a full length frame to support it.

and as that scania longline tilts, and has a fully luxurious interior, then theres NO reason why the TerraStar XL-R will not work as a tilt cab. spanner monkeys would just have to be careful of clearances when tilting it.

United States of PA - August 10, 2012 10:40 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
what i was reffering to about the cab box. take a look at say a Kenworth T2000, or even a W900 sleeper or for that matter a Freightliner Coronado or FLD,

the sleeper box is BIGGER than the Argosy 110 raised roof's entire cab box.


Because, when you compare a 110inch Conventional Bunk to a Cabover 110inch, the Cabover has a little man syndrome. Despite technically being the same length, the Cabover really has the same usable space as a Peterbilt 63 inch standup/flattop, or a Kenworth 70inch flattop/Studio.

I've fucking said this before already, how hard is it it to get? I've been in a Argosy. They arent that fucking impressive in terms of space.

QUOTE
the killer for space on the Kenworth K100 was that big engine hump between the seats. it seems to sit lower than a lot of euro models.


Thats because of height laws here in the US. K100s with the Aerodynes (Raised roofs) have less than a foot of space between the top of the truck and the maximum legal height for America. We cant afford that extra 3 feet needed to clear the engine (I've work on ours extensively enough to know that distance).

QUOTE
you may as well have a cab over.The cabs are WIDER, upto a full 2.5m excluding mirrors, (as wide as the sleeper box on that puppy).


That a representation of the 1986 we had. If you go with current models, such as say, oh, the fucking Ultra Cab like we had in our 1999, you have pretty much the same space as in a cabover. You can actually stand up in the cabs of them. THan you still have that awesome, very comfortable sleeper behind ya (Which is the entire reason why Cabovers went extinct over here. They are not comfortable compared to conventionals. Believe it or not, in the 70s and 80s we had just as many, if not more Cabovers as we did Conventionals. Not that i would expect you to know that. Now you struggle to see one, and if you want a new one, you have to order them 10 at a time.


QUOTE
yes you will pitch a bit more than a conventional, but having been in many cab overs, a modern cab over is NOT that bad of a ride.


As i said, but that is exclusively due to the fact they are full air ride cabs. A Peterbilt Low air Leaf rear suspension with Air Ride bunk still beats them every hour of every day of the week. Thats a spring mounted cab by the way (Air bags on the bunk, Springs on the cab itself).



QUOTE
this will give you an overall height of 4.0m.


By the time you include stuff on top, plus stacks (Which are virtually required to be above the height of the top of the cab to prevent smogging up the trailer behind you), your over the legal height limit, which is why K100s and Pete 352s and 362s sit comparatively low.

QUOTE
the CoE will also be shorter


Completely and utterly debatable. The ones you have named and showed pics of are by no way short.

QUOTE
and so more manouvrable in tight drop off places


My dad has been driving over the road for 36 years or so. He has yet to find a place where the truck you have used as a example cannot get into. This includes incredibly tight places in cities such as Detroit, Los Angeles, NYC, etc.

You would be surprised how small a difference the 80inches between the shortest over the road cabovers here, and the 260inch wheelbase of that Pete 359 it actually makes. A smart, good driver can get that truck into the same spots as say, this.

user posted image



QUOTE
many drops i see people back into here in the UK, you would never even get in with a conventional unless its a really short one. (2 axle instead of 3 axles, with a day cab, practically a yard goat


Your talking out of your ass. We have just as many tight places to get into here as you do in Europe, perhaps even more so than any given European Country because of our population, yet Cabovers are all but Extinct except among those who think they look cool. And within another year or two they're going to lose one more operator in my dad as he gets a big bunked Conventional, for, in case you cant guess it, the added comfort.

QUOTE
remember where you are, USA where the conventional rules the roost, here in Europe we run 99% CoE types.


Again, not the case 30 years ago. There is a reason why they disappeared from the roads.

QUOTE
something like the TerraStar would be limited to a 12m trailer, (like most US conventionals that have been imported,) now you see why we like cab over types


Europe is where the US was 30 years ago, where a 40 ft trailer is the longest you would see. Now your hard pressed to see anything under 49 feet, and the average van trailer or reefer trailer is 53 ft.

We never had a issue than, i doubt on NS you will.

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 10:54 PM (GMT)
hng on...
QUOTE
Thats because of height laws here in the US. K100s with the Aerodynes (Raised roofs) have less than a foot of space between the top of the truck and the maximum legal height for America. We cant afford that extra 3 feet needed to clear the engine (I've work on ours extensively enough to know that distance).

+

By the time you include stuff on top, plus stacks (Which are virtually required to be above the height of the top of the cab to prevent smogging up the trailer behind you), your over the legal height limit, which is why K100s and Pete 352s and 362s sit comparatively low.



yet despite this, unless the regs changed between the K100 and the Argosy, the Argosy manages to have a near flat floor, albeit with a small dog house over the engine and get the pipes clear of the cab, from the pics i have seen, the dog house on the K100/P352 seems to be 12 inches higher than it really needs to be.


Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 10:56 PM (GMT)
so basically i am getting the feeling creating the Diamond Star marketplace I have WASTED My time doing all the photoshop work and write ups for the Kvasir, TerraStar and DS900

United States of PA - August 10, 2012 10:58 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ghost 2501 @ Aug 10 2012, 11:54 PM)
hng on...
QUOTE
Thats because of height laws here in the US. K100s with the Aerodynes (Raised roofs) have less than a foot of space between the top of the truck and the maximum legal height for America. We cant afford that extra 3 feet needed to clear the engine (I've work on ours extensively enough to know that distance).

+

By the time you include stuff on top, plus stacks (Which are virtually required to be above the height of the top of the cab to prevent smogging up the trailer behind you), your over the legal height limit, which is why K100s and Pete 352s and 362s sit comparatively low.



yet despite this, unless the regs changed between the K100 and the Argosy, the Argosy manages to have a near flat floor, albeit with a small dog house over the engine and get the pipes clear of the cab, from the pics i have seen, the dog house on the K100/P352 seems to be 12 inches higher than it really needs to be.

Because im willing to bet American Engines are bigger. Plus radiator (The Dog box goes all the way to the front of the truck, and is roughly outlined by the grille), accelerator assembly etc.

And twelve inches? Fuck no. In reality you have about 4 inches between the uppermost parts of the engine and the inside part of the dog box. Everything else is insulation so the engine heat doesnt make the cab a recreation of Death Valley and the noise doesnt make you go deaf.

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 11:02 PM (GMT)
yet the total literage is about the same usually between 12 and 16 litres, possibly with the odd 19 litre thrown in from the likes of magirus deutz

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 11:03 PM (GMT)
then there's this one
user posted image
based on an argosy 110,
all i have done is added Volvo skirts over the tanks, and dragged the window down on the sides and made the exhausts wider. they were not raised, and made it a Eurostyle 6x2 tag axle as opposed to a midlift or keeping it a tandem drive

well as sv's are dead, though i wander how bristol only got 3000hrs out of them, im guessing thats down to 1940s machining. yet a piston slides up and down in a barrel, so icant see why they would wear more.

anyway overhead cab, v12 19.1 litre. NS'ers didnt like it having 900bhp so i necked it to 750bhp - though Scania and Volvo, and you youself PA said 750 is a tad on the low side for a 19 litre, or even a 16 litre if i recall . (deutz did a 19.1 air cooled engine for semis, now an engine DESIGNED to be aircooled will work better than a watercooled engine that has lost its water. worked fine for Iveco and Tatra - tatra used a 19 litre air cooled engine in their tank transporters!

United States of PA - August 10, 2012 11:12 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Ghost 2501 @ Aug 11 2012, 12:02 AM)
yet the total literage is about the same usually between 12 and 16 litres, possibly with the odd 19 litre thrown in from the likes of magirus deutz

Except that Europeans build engines lighter than Americans do. The V8 you specified has a displacement of 12L, Inline 6s over here have a displace of 14.6-14.8L.

It's not just about the displacement (Literage as you call it, why i dont know), but about how the engines are built. Europeans build engines very lightly, sacrificing durability for light weight and sometimes performance, while Americans build engines very heavily to get a lot of endurance out of them.

European Truck engines are generally good only for a max of 1.5mn millions for example. Caterpillars over here as generally good for 2.5mn, Detroits on average for longer, and i've even heard of some Detroits making it 5mn miles between overhauls.


QUOTE
well as sv's are dead, though i wander how bristol only got 3000hrs out of them, im guessing thats down to 1940s machining. yet a piston slides up and down in a barrel, so icant see why they would wear more.


Most likely because it is not a perfectly smooth surface, since you know, you have holes in the liners. Thats probably your biggest cause there.


Also, stop it with the 5 response posts to one of mine, its a fucking headache to respond too.

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 11:21 PM (GMT)
QUOTE

The V8 you specified has a displacement of 12L, Inline 6s over here have a displace of 14.6-14.8L.



merc's V6 used in the older SK and SKN (Actros MP1, MP2 and MP3 models was a 12l V6, they have only recently moved to Inline 6. so as I originally specced the 19.1 litre, to keep the same bore/stroke, I went to a V10 for the 16 litre (15.7 i think),
then for the 12.1 litre V8 keeps things like one load of valve sleeves, / barrel liners, pistons, con rods etc to make

I added air cooling following deutz and tatra,

if its never fitted it cant be there to fail. Not sure how many valves per cylinder the Deutz aircooled engines had.

As for autos, love em, or hate em, (and you seem to not like them) are here to stay with now only the low end trucks having synchromesh manuals, (instead of crash boxes) Europe left crash boxes in the early 80s, possibly earlier, and since at least 2000 we have had autos in semis. early ones were pretty dire but now they are actually pretty good.

United States of PA - August 10, 2012 11:39 PM (GMT)
Caterpillars 3406 and C15 series have 4 valves per piston. Far as i know nearly all other American Four Stroke Diesels do as well.

I still dont condone Air Cooling. Even with Water cooling i've noticed far too many issues out west with heat for some truck engines. If your selling these on NS your bound to encounter customers with climates that arent conducive to air cooled engines (Cooling a 160 degree engine with 120 degree air wont work out i think). Than again, im not familiar with air cooling cause i've never worked with it.

Ghost 2501 - August 10, 2012 11:43 PM (GMT)
The Prometheus
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image

Model: Prometheus

Design Weight: GCW40,000kg - 4x2 Tractor
GCW 44,000kg - 6x2 Tractor
32,000kg - 8x4
26,000kg - 6x2
18,000kg - 4x2

Engine: Diamond Star inline 6 or

Capacity: 12 litre (inline 6) 16 litre (v8)

max power @ 1500rpm inline 6 400 to 600

V8 600 to 750 (can be specified for 990 for heavy haulage specialist applications)

max torque @ 1500rpm 2000 to 3200Nm depending on engine size

gearbox Option 1: Diamond Star Intelidrive 12 speed Automatic
Option 2: Diamond Star 16 speed synchromesh Manual
Option 3: Diamond Star 12 speed synchromesh Manual

Brakes Electro-pneumatic ABS discs on all axles with
hill-hold facility, parking brake applied on all 3 axles and trailer brakes

Maximum speed limited to 100km/h

Engine
The heart of the Diamond Star Prometheus is the FTR diesel, FTR, Four-stroke Twin Rail, this means not one common rail injection system but two. when both rails are operating, fuel consumption is as expected for a 12 or 16 litre diesel engine, howerver when the engine is idling, only one set of injectors is working, supplying only sufficient fuel to maintain the engine speed, cutting down on idle fuel consumption by 30% over a single rail fuel system.

Unlike the RX family, the FTR brings liquid cooling to the engine. The radiator behind the front grille, though two additional radiators can be situated behind the side skirts of the chassis. To keep emissions down, the FTR family of engines uses SCR, selective catalytic reduction, to remove particulates from the exhaust stream, EGR abd Adblue to remove co2 and other chemical emissions from the exhaust stream, bringing in compliance to Euro VI as standard, making the Prometheus EEV certified.

Step inside
Open the door to the Prometheus, you are greeted by 4 steps, each one slightly further in than the one below, which when combined with two good grab handles, each one going half way up from the cab floor to the door entry in the cab gives a secure hand hold for entry and exit of the cab, the 4 steps are lightly studded to provide grip when it is icy or wet, making for a safe foot hold.

To provide the driver a comfortable working environment, the seats are air sprung as standard, and electrically adjusted in reach, recline and headrest height and pneumatically adjusted in height, seat base tilt, and lumbar support, and for safety they have integral seat belts. With the door closed, the cab of the Prometheus is quiet. a lot of care and attention has gone into making sure that all unwanted noise such as wind noise stays outside the cab, yet allowing some audible feedback as to what the engine is doing, this means that when working hard, the only thing comming into the cab from the engine below is a reassuring rumble, some have likenned it to a cat purring.

With an air sprung cab, the ride in the Prometheus is smooth and poised with very little cab nod under braking or accelleration or cab roll in corners, sensors in the cab frame detect latteral and longditudinal accellerative forces and adjust the relative air chambers to compensate, and combined with full climate control, the Prometheus is one of the best working environments on the road.

Being designed for the Geographic Europe sales region, the truck comes with an approved digital tachograph system instead of an analogue tachograph. This device records drivers hours and is a legal requirement in many countries across Europe, including the Aurora Confederacy, Semens VDO provide the tachographs




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