View Full Version: How many tanks in an armored division?

Nsdraftroom > Argument & Debate > How many tanks in an armored division?


Title: How many tanks in an armored division?


1010102 - October 30, 2009 05:30 AM (GMT)
Recently, I got off my lazy and started figuring out how my forces are organzied. For lulz, I'm using WW2 German units as a rough guide. And when I add every thing up I have 22 tanks in a tank company, 88 in a Battalion and then it gets insane with 176 in a regiment and 352 in a division.

I screwed up somewhere.

Sumer - October 30, 2009 10:20 AM (GMT)
That sounds about right.

Which pattern division are you using?

Lyras - October 30, 2009 01:08 PM (GMT)
I calculated 330 for mine, but that was years ago, and may need an update... but 352, as Sumer put, sounds about right.


1010102 - October 30, 2009 08:15 PM (GMT)
Ok. For some reason I thought it was much, much lower.

Sumer - October 30, 2009 10:00 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (1010102 @ Oct 30 2009, 05:15 PM)
Ok. For some reason I thought it was much, much lower.

Some heavy tank groups, and Soviet tank Armies, would be in the 500-range with division-level personnel, but they were very very infantry light.

Falls - October 31, 2009 06:18 AM (GMT)
I have around 405 tanks to a Division. Give or take a Command tank here or there.

1010102 - October 31, 2009 04:02 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Sumer @ Oct 30 2009, 05:00 PM)
QUOTE (1010102 @ Oct 30 2009, 05:15 PM)
Ok. For some reason I thought it was much, much lower.

Some heavy tank groups, and Soviet tank Armies, would be in the 500-range with division-level personnel, but they were very very infantry light.

I was looking at maybe 2 Panzer Regiments, a Grenadier regiment at the division level, an artillery regiment, plus supply, command and recon elements with around 18-19,000 men. Sound about right?

Falls - November 2, 2009 06:08 AM (GMT)
Rechecked and its actually 459 tank per Division.

Sumer - November 2, 2009 01:21 PM (GMT)
Structure makes a whole difference. For example a current US armoured division has in its ranks:
- 3 Maneuver Brigades running Inf-Arm-Arm/Inf-Inf-Arm/Inf-Arm-Arm in componant regiments/battalions.
- A Fourth Brigade of 1 Cav unit, and two Aviation regiments with AH-64s and UH-60s.
- Divisional artillery, signals, support, air defence, and so on.

That ends up a total of 317 tanks in the sub-units (330-ish including command vehicles) between five regiments and a 27-tank Cav unit.

Compare nicely to a post-Nomonhan IJA division (Because I have it in front of me):
- 2 Tank Brigades each with up to 4 tank regiments of 78 tanks.
- A Mobile Infantry regiment
- An Anti-tank unit.
- A Recce unit, itself with 40 tanks.
- Mobile Arty.
- Air defence.
- Engineers.
- And support.

For a total of up to 673 tanks, comprehensive engineer, artillery, and air defence support, but less infantry proportionally. In practice the divisions only had 2 regiments per brigade, so the real number was 361 when they were properly equipped.

And for A Sumerian tank Brigade you can have the following:
- 2 Tank Battalions each of 3 regiments (Different levels in Sumer), being Arm-Arm-Inf, for 65 tanks.
- An Inf regiment, with 40 tanks.
- A combat support regiment.
- A Support regiment.

Total for a Sumerian tank Brigade is 315 tanks, not including gun tanks (Or CS tanks in Brit nomenclature, Assault Guns in German, or MGS in American).

Structure and organization makes a huge difference.

1010102 - November 3, 2009 02:54 AM (GMT)
At what level should I start including organic air support? Regiment or Division?

Sumer - November 3, 2009 04:06 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (1010102 @ Nov 2 2009, 11:54 PM)
At what level should I start including organic air support? Regiment or Division?

Depends on your doctrine.

Cotland - November 3, 2009 07:44 PM (GMT)
I personally include air support at Corps level, but then again, I'm starting to reform my army to a Theatre Command (Army) -> Tactical Command (Corps) -> Tactical Manouver (Brigade) style army, completely removing the division from the equation. At Corps-level, I include a aviation regiment with 60 attack helis and 40 transport/utility helis, plus UAVs.

Falls - November 4, 2009 04:01 AM (GMT)
Would having a an Army Air Force as opposed to a separate branch realistically effect at what level air support was included.

Lamoni - November 4, 2009 07:01 AM (GMT)
It hasn't done so historically.

Lyras - November 4, 2009 11:24 AM (GMT)
In the current age of network warfare and communications... probably not.

Falls - November 12, 2009 08:58 AM (GMT)
I redid my Armor to be more agile-- what am I missing

Tank Platoon(15 men, 5 Tanks)
1 Officer, 14 other Ranks
5 x Tank

Tank Troop(55men, 22 tanks, 3 APCs, 4 Supply vehicles)
6 Officers
49 other Ranks
Administration Platoon(1 APC, 4 Tracked Load bearers)
4x Tank Platoon

Tank Squadron(238men, 89 tanks, 2 Armored C3 Vehicles, 13 APCs, 21 Supply Vehicles, 3 Bridge Tank, 3 Dozer Tank)
40 Officers, 252 other ranks

Squadron HQ(2 APC, 3 Tanks)
Headquarters Troop (1 armoured personnel carrier, 3 bridge laying tanks, 3 tank dozers, 5 tracked load carriers)

4x Tank Troop

Sumer - November 12, 2009 11:40 AM (GMT)
You might want to up the troop officers. Each of the four Plts should have one, the Admin plt should have one too. Plus the Troop CO. The XO being the Admin plt's CO. That would be 6x officers. With, usually, your company NCO in the second HQ tank.

Best to attach specialized units to the HQ, not involve them in it, really. 1945 US Med.Tank Companies usually involved three combat platoons, an Admin/Mess/Supply "section" of a GMC 2.5 ton, and a maintenance "section" of an M3, a Jeep, and an ARV. The only specialized equip the HQ got was what it would use in its commanding job, which was a Jeep (Along with the HQ tanks). Everyone does it slightly differently, but there has been a consistent move to get as much non-tank from the HQ platoon as possible. The whole point of the HQ platoon is to command from the front, and because of that you want as little to distinguish it at all times (Not just combat) from the other platoons. Some militaries (The Brits early WW2 for example) went to far as to have their HQ unit larger then their normal platoon in terms of tanks, and had no non-tank vehicles organic to the company.

Falls - November 12, 2009 11:51 AM (GMT)
I was wondering if I could get away with that...I might give it a go.




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