I need a visual design for a Japanese type minisub fitted with castaway ramjets and wings and reinforced structurally to survive being jettisoned into the ocean at low level.

The object being a long range flight of shore based squadrons of these submarines to launch their 2 torpedoes at an approaching fleet without the agony of piloting slowly through Anti-aircraft fire to launch a single torpedo.

This weapon will represent my Nation's crazy wonder weapon of desperation. So the idea of Recovering the minisubs will be something that is not a priority.

...WOW.

just go faster than missiles lol

In all honesty, you might want to modify the Kaiten design a little and stick two torpedoes to that.

im huigh as fuukc

nig4lysfe bitches

granted im ghey for air launched mini subs and i believe there was a actual martin merrywhateverthefuck napkinwaffe plane/sub and like its in fiction and shit and what am i typing about

Launch entire sub.

it needs to have a 100mm gun in a remote weapons staion carry 16 special forces and have treads

then it can fly around in a ground support roll for urban fighting

canals and shit like venice so it could land and move around in them

Impossible, and actually an operationally useless weapon. Just use Okha and be done with it.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! You just killed it! I could have been beautiful!

While its admittedly a bad idea, going full Okha is out of the question. The weapon as a concept works just fine, as the Kaiten and Okha are of similar weight to say the V1.

Its not that far out there to have a nation combine the concepts out of desperation. A plane with a minisub fuselage which is jetisoned at low level to engage shipping.

It may require a larger ramjet engine, or two VI engines, But In the realm of crazy WWII concepts this thing isnt that radical.

This is somehow cheaper to produce than a harpoon how

Harpoon is an anachronism. This weapon is for WWII era.

There's nothing useful that can be said about this.

Except.... it is impossible.

Consider the weight needed, due to the structure you need to have to have the sub part survive crashing into the water.

It's just not going to happen. Use Okha.

A Kaiten isnt much more than a torpedo and they survive the drop very well. I would be more concerned with the pilot remaining conscious.

off the top of my head. chute deployment. Now were in the the territory of splashdown except without the added stresses of coming to a halt on the surface, since the torpedo/minisub would be expected to dive into the water in any case.

Im just not sold on the impossibility of this weapon when all the pieces exist and function reliably in the WWII era.
Throw in a hydropneumatic recoil devise for the pilot's seat...
chutes...
weight is not an issue as minisubs are well within the power range of the engines.
Im just not being sold on impossible. Not useful or effective in combat I can understand. The weapon fills that role in fact.

Parachutes?

Srsly, how hard can it be to make a submersiable flying-boat w/o wings?

idt this is quite mature to be mass-produced @ ww2, considering the earliest actual ramjets were flying in the late forties rather than the early forties

e: especially as a desperation weapon

Well, for one, all your tech doesn't exist. See ramjets.

For two, a kaiten with a launchable torpedo (Which is not a kaiten, btw) is going to be absurdly heavy. A monisub and a torpedo are very very different things, and a sub or ship launched torpedo and an air dropped one are even more different.

Remember as well, you're speaking ramjets. Which means fast, high-altitude flight. Which means to land in the water right you need to have a long, slow descent from altitude on a parachute. Where the enemy will happily shoot you up.

Now, let's presume you can get one airborne and handwave the issues with parachuting or hitting the water by using unobtanium. At this point you need a WW2 era aircraft to carry a 20 tonne weapon, using the Kairyu class as an example. Since, as you said yourself, you want to air drop a submarine which carries two torpedoes. Not air drop a suicide torpedo. If you want a suicide torpedo, 10t. I'm not even going to bother searching that because anything I find will be useless for this.

And then you add all the goodies (Chutes, hydraulic systems for the pilot that won't work, and stuff) and the weight goes up. Add in the structural changes to actually make the sub itself survive hitting the water instead of crumpling into paper, and the weight goes up. Then you add newly-developed engines in their infancy which have horrid efficiency and power capability and fuel consumption, and on top of that need to travel really fast (Exacerbating the issue of hitting the water, I might add), and you're back to square one, which I will repeat below.

It.
Is.
Impossible.

Use Okha.

Reliably? Not really, all of the parts are still being sorted out then. They work great within their narrow performance margins, but you don't need to wander far before they start not doing right. That's why everything back then had like five times the crew.



Oh, and unless you're crazy (Russian), you don't have ramjets. The Russians didn't really have ramjets to speak of, but they at least did some minimal work on them during the war. The conclusion was that they didn't have any of the tech at the time. The French tried again some time later and were fairly successful, but that was post-war. (Nord did some great work, but that's 50s)



So, if you're looking for a flight stage powerplant, there is exactly one that is cheap enough to piss away and mature enough to work: rockets.

There is some confusion with me and others about ramjets and pulse jets.
pulse jets existed, functioned at sea level without requiring high altitude or speed.
The arguments about weight are spurious.

Am i being gently prodded into the direction of "Do it yourself?"

At risk of being excessively harsh, but since it's still being discussed, every part of this is horribly broken and so is the concept and so is how every part fits together. In no particular order:

- A minisub is too heavy to be carried by a WWII plane (or most modern).
- Dropping a crewed, fueled, armed minisub into the water without a parachute doesn't even need further comment.
- Ramjets are completely the wrong engine for the flight profile even if they were entirely in the WWII tech bracket.
- Minisubs are too slow to catch and attack warships at sea under normal cruise, let alone ones aware of their presence and evading. That's why they were used in harbour attacks only.
- Even if it worked, this provides minimal useful protection for the plane, whose main problem will be fighters not ship AA.
- Even if it did, you're still losing the minisub and crew which are worth more than the plane anyway.

tl;dr, this won't work technically and even if it did it would just be a more expensive, less effective kamikaze weapon.

I'd never thought i'd have to say this to anyone here. But
you are wrong. look it up. I'm fine with doing the work myself but at this point you're asking me to do your homework as well.

Look up the many RL examples of suicide missile-submarine-torpedoes? Or if not that, what specifically?

how so

Example of a high speed attack minisub of appropriate weight, Though obviously not designed for low level air launching, would be a german prototype called Dolphin.. i think

~2-3 tons
high submerged speed is relative, but as an interceptor weapon it only has to be adequate.

I reassert that it can be done with a little experimentation, and my country can have a wonderfully unique, Nation-on-the-verge-of-defeat, Wont-change-the-inevitable crazy sub.

"The Delphin weighed 2.5 tons and was easily recognizable due to its tear-drop shape, which allowed the vessel to travel through the water at higher speeds. During trials the submarine reached a speed of seventeen knots while submerged."

c.f. warship evasive speed of high 20s to low 30s.

But what does it matter? Any one of those problems is fatal. Including the ones that apply even if the concept technically works exactly as described.

Why not airdrop long-lance torpedoes with manual guidance?

why not Fritz X

those okha crewmen would be better off given a mosin and told to never retreat

Not really looking for a literal suicide weapon. And the long lance may not be appropriate. Although any design would require substantial experimentation.
apparently there was a minisub powered by the walther turbine and achieved 30 knots.
I dont know the specifications. and thirty may be overkill.
The Japanese aerial torpedo could remain on target at ~400 mph launch. A structurally reinforced minisub would reliably survive impact with the water at lesser speeds. chuted and hydro-pneumatic systems not withstanding. The tail section of the 'carrier' could merely be shed on impact with the water ala Japanese aerial torpedo again.
It doesnt have to dogfight, it just has to get within operational range, flying at low level behind a distracting conventional aerial attack. The more you actually look into it the more feasible it appears.
Germans didnt need such a weapon since the window of opportunity of such an attack in their theatre was literally too narrow. And they werent in the desperation stage at that time.
Japanese were perfectly happy with crude, human guided suicide weapons. Which Dont always work since there was a considerable number of pilots, trained or otherwise, who balked. understandably.

This.

and given enough supplies for a month at the least.

this applies to minisub crew too

True. Because it would never take off the ground, and as such the impact would only be that of dropping from the deck.

What deck? He's not exactly making this crap out of Neutronium, anyway.

The noob is right, there aren't any problems that would make this utterly impossible, it just wouldn't help if fielded. Which is exactly what he's going for. Bug off.

I still don't see how such a minisub would present a greater overall launch-range than a similarilly sized torpedo or guided-missile.

Heck, if we really wanted to, we could take a pedal-powered narco-sub style lifeboat, load it with arty-rockets, and shove them into the water off the back-ends of flying-boats.

Japanese "smart" area-denial naval-mines.

He could pick-up survivors afterwards at pre-planned rendezous-points.

ok

An X-class is 27t empty, the Kairyu 19, while more typical midget subs are closer to 50t

The B-29 can carry 9t of bombs normally, while Grand Slams are 11

nevermind anything a carrier can carry, even the largest of ww2 stratbombers can't haul midget subs

Human-torpedoes may disagree.

Kaiten 10 wieghed 3 tons and a 4 km one-way combat-radius.

Long-Lance wieghed 3 tons and had range of 40 km.

But unmanned torpedoes still win.

Standard Type 91 Air-torp had range of 2 km and wieghed less than a ton.

But we're not discussing human torpedoes, as the OP states that it's possible to launch subs that launch torpedoes from planes, rather than suicide torps

Which makes even less sense.

The FT example being why star-fighters are useless compared to cruise-missiles.

Yet here is the case of someone deciding to use the far heavier 2-way ships at exponential fuel-cost simply so he can re-use the disposable craft that is now 5x more likely to be destroyed before making-up for its added cost to deploy.

Drop. Mines.

---

For the wieght of a single manned torpedo, armed with a micro-torpedo you can do the following:

Launch six rocket-assisted torpedoes, ASROC-style, and achieve the same range, compensating for inaccuracy with the spam of six torpedoes.

Launch one long-lance acoustic (delayed) homing-torpedo.

Emplace a missile-battery on your shores instead of an airstrip and launch a 1-man missile-bus loaded mistel-composite unmanned torpedo-bombers.

---

For a decent human-torpedo/micro-sub you can:

Spam-fire several long-lance torpedoes with rocket assist over the horizon with semi-suicidal and completely untrained Okha-pilots*.

Mistel-composite several rocket-gliders underneath carrier-fighter planes and load them with torpedoes.

*Essentially manned guidance version of glider-bombing, strap a recovery-rocket onto them so they can climb and glide back to base. See also: BV-40 Assault-Glider

Research teh Bombensegler and Kriegmarine usage of the Me-163 in coastal defense.

Mael, the basic message from NSD seems to be that we do not believe that this is a reasonable creation.



As for the drawing cutaway, it may be best for you to do it, as none of us seem to be able to envision how this would come together. A very rough sketch (boxes in MSPaint) might help your case and frame this discussion.

No, you are wrong. And the more I think of this idea, the stupider it becomes.

No matter what happens, this is a suicide weapon.
To reinforce the structure enough to withstand even a slow impact, at that weight, you're going to look at a lot of weight in structure, and little weight in engine/fuel/life support. Let alone even less in the torpedoes you want to carry.

And this is before you try to come to terms with the fact that you will not find an aircraft to move it.

And pulse jets and ramjets are very different things. Apart from the insane vibration issues, you will get nowhere near enough power from a pulse jet to make this feasible.

If you want a pulse jet powered attack weapon that is not a suicide weapon, use V-1 and accept that you won't likely hit ships. You want to hit ships, make it radio command guided from another aircraft, or use Okha.

Your idea is impossible. No amount of fantasy will change that.