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 Sandcasters, Plausibility?
SOCR
Posted: Dec 23 2010, 01:00 AM


0% Armaments Designer


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I've been reading an article on battle-starship design, and they bring up the interesting point that lasers can impart kinetic force. So when a laser hits a sandcaster cloud, wouldn't you now be faced with dozens of tiny particles moving relativistic speeds towards your ship?
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Izistan
Posted: Dec 23 2010, 02:16 AM


You have way too much time on your hands ...


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No.


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<+Praetonia> izi lives in a bizarre dystopian parallel canada
<+Praetonia> beset on all sides by triads, hell's angels and corrupt RCMP
<+Praetonia> not to mention hordes of nazis
QUOTE
@RatedRsupeRme actually its fosforus technology fosforus when it melts through anything like shooting through paper its used in at4hs ammo now and it basically has a delayed ignition an is like a volcano erupting and spewing melting white hot fosforus tottaly melting anyone in its way so ur really behind on military tech

<+medicus> izistan
<+medicus> i heard
<+medicus> you'd never hear me say this
<+medicus> but thank god for israel and the united states
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Kyiv
Posted: Dec 23 2010, 02:28 AM


My tank is umbrella!


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Sandcasters sux


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QUOTE
i think it is you that is the fool.My education was brought with money, not from wikipedia!


QUOTE (Rich and Corporations @ Apr 16 2012, 10:06 PM)
Oh my god, everyone is either wrong or fucking stupid.
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no endorse
Posted: Dec 23 2010, 05:06 AM


You have way too much time on your hands ...


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QUOTE (SOCR @ Dec 22 2010, 08:00 PM)
I've been reading an article on battle-starship design, and they bring up the interesting point that lasers can impart kinetic force.

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/enginelist.php#Photon

It does impart kinetic force. However....


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user posted image
user posted image
QUOTE (IRC)
[22:39]Spizania: A chain is a unit of length; it measures 66 feet or 22 yards or 4 rods or 100 links[1] (20.1168m). <<< This is why Britian ruled the world
[22:39]Spizania: we created a system of measurements noone else could understand
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SOCR
Posted: Dec 23 2010, 05:53 AM


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Which is the same site where I got the sandcaster argument, so unless there's some internal inconsistency, I can see what they're saying. Basically that all the particles, to dampen the laser's effects, have to interact with it in a way which would in turn have the laser acting on them like a bunch of tiny solar sails. I think.

As a different defense against lasers, what about a layer of armor that functions as an optical metamaterial?
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Kyiv
Posted: Dec 23 2010, 06:29 AM


My tank is umbrella!


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Metamaterials sux.

Seriously though metamaterials can only work over a very narrow band of frequencies which is built into the structure. In space you can hit by a laser of almost any frequency. With a free electron laser you can tune your laser weapons whenever you want.


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QUOTE
i think it is you that is the fool.My education was brought with money, not from wikipedia!


QUOTE (Rich and Corporations @ Apr 16 2012, 10:06 PM)
Oh my god, everyone is either wrong or fucking stupid.
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no endorse
Posted: Dec 23 2010, 07:30 AM


You have way too much time on your hands ...


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QUOTE (SOCR @ Dec 23 2010, 12:53 AM)
Which is the same site where I got the sandcaster argument, so unless there's some internal inconsistency, I can see what they're saying. Basically that all the particles, to dampen the laser's effects, have to interact with it in a way which would in turn have the laser acting on them like a bunch of tiny solar sails. I think.

Well, velocity=acceleration * time. Acceleration = force / mass. Force (in our case) = power / C. Momentum = Mass * Velocity.


So the change in momentum of the particle is (power*time)/ C

C is O(10^8)
time is O(1) unless you plan on shooting the thing for like 10 seconds
Power ~ K*S*T
...... where K is some constant (somewhere between 0 and 1, not inclusive)
.................S is the cross sectional area of the particle (really small, 10^-6 m^2 for cubic sand grains 1mm to a side)
.................T is the total output of your big space laser



What you then get is:

delta P = O(10^-6) * T * O(1) * O(10^-8)

Which can be further reduced to

delta P = T / O(10^-14) plus or minus an order of magnitude or two.



Long story short, for any appreciable change in momentum, you need a LOT of laser output for a little momentum change.


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user posted image
user posted image
QUOTE (IRC)
[22:39]Spizania: A chain is a unit of length; it measures 66 feet or 22 yards or 4 rods or 100 links[1] (20.1168m). <<< This is why Britian ruled the world
[22:39]Spizania: we created a system of measurements noone else could understand
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Purpelia
Posted: Dec 23 2010, 03:31 PM


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And even if you did make the particles fly at C they are still just individual particles. Sort of like throwing a hand full of sand into someone's face.

Even if you did manage to throw 1kg of sand at him, the impact would be quite different than that of the equivalent mass of rock (as in a solid object). And the same should go for this.

The energy is there, but the mass of the particles is just to small to do anything.

Furthermore, and I might be wrong here. But this is for a FT setting with FTL or at least near light travel right?
If so your ship is going to have to be armored enough to resist high speed particle impacts anyway since it will be impacting cosmic dust, micro meteors and stuff all the time anyway. (especially if the ship has armor to protect it from enemy fire)

I can't really see it doing any real damage as a weapon.


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Official Representative of the Windir Design Bureau of the Purpelian Government.


The three glorious steps of our design process:
Step 1 - The Great Leader draws a picture of what he wants and gives it to the designers with the words: "Make a good X out of this."
Step 2 - The designers than go and do their best to make something that works and still looks mostly like what the Great Leader drew.
Step 3 - Once finished with that, throw it away and make something that actually works.

Always remember:
The law is not law because it is just.
The law is just because it is the law.

Glory and Victory to the Arch Duchy!
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VTC
Posted: Dec 23 2010, 03:49 PM


Designer


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Note though that the utility of a "sandcaster" against beam weapons may be overrated, as it can be easily burnt through. Once the sand is evaporated - and a weapon laser should be designed to evaporate tons of armor, not just kilograms of sand - there's nothing standing in between. The only way a defense like that can work is if you are delivering it with immense flow rate, velocity and precision. And even then it's just a stand-in for active ablative armor.

Now, against a missile flying at c-fraction velocities, it may be different. Although, since at these velocities steering is impossible, a c-fraction missile would be nothing more than an alternate form of a mass driver.


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