Title: Israel
Cole - May 15, 2011 11:57 PM (GMT)
stoicblitzer - May 16, 2011 12:01 AM (GMT)
Cole - May 16, 2011 12:09 AM (GMT)
Lol Israel....
Merc can you fix that please :D
tehReal~ChaZZZy - May 16, 2011 01:28 AM (GMT)
Hamas political influence is on the rise.
It's a potentially very dangerous situation building there.
Add to that the fact that Egypt, which has been a very important part of the peace puzzle, is now in the midst of a crisis of their own and this is something we have to keep our eyes on.
Cole - May 16, 2011 01:37 AM (GMT)
Iranian influenced BIG TIME !!!
Mercurius of Cappadocia - May 16, 2011 06:49 AM (GMT)
Out of potential for flammability, I'd recommend not bringing up the whole Israel/Palestine issue. People have been suffering there for a long time and there are a lot of heavy emotions involved... and this is an international group. It's easy for people to lose their restraint... what little there is on an informal social chat space like this. Last time we had a thread on the matter it was WWIII.. .and I didn't even post in that one, if you can imagine! So... I would recommend some caution on this matter, or it would be far better if we closed the thread down before much ado.
Yes this is a scary situation.
Cole - May 16, 2011 11:09 PM (GMT)
True..... its only going to get worse ..
Please close thread
HipLnzDftr - May 17, 2011 02:10 PM (GMT)
Actually, the two topics that usually spark online controversy and eventual full out blow outs is Religion and Politics.
The other thread that's currently going is the one on evolution vs religion vs science etc..etc.. and it seems to still be going strong with virtually little to no flare ups at all.!!
I would say give the people the benefit of the doubt and using the "evo" thread as an example, to leave this one open and see if everyone can behave as well as they are in that thread.
:mtwcheers:
Mercurius of Cappadocia - May 17, 2011 03:02 PM (GMT)
I issued a call for caution on an issue that has proven highly flammable in the past on this forum... not meant as a reflection on any ongoing conversations. The thread isn't closed...
Abu of Agrabah - May 17, 2011 03:21 PM (GMT)
Kronos - May 17, 2011 04:58 PM (GMT)
To best sum it up I'd say it's like Mexicans trying to cross the Rio Grande and getting shot in the face. Maybe even more extreme than that considering Palestinians have a reasonable claim on Israel. It was an excessive use of force by the Israeli's but the entire situation is alot more complex than that and it'll just keep esculating at this rate.
Cole - May 18, 2011 03:08 AM (GMT)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13373006To say excessive force was used is debatable. I only say this because let me tell you something, try crossing the DMZ on the North and South Korean border.
Protestors knew this was off limits, and they HAD to know that Military forces would fire upon them. This is going to get ugly :yuk:
Dinadan of Logris - May 18, 2011 08:33 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (HipLnzDftr @ May 17 2011, 03:10 PM) |
Actually, the two topics that usually spark online controversy and eventual full out blow outs is Religion and Politics.
The other thread that's currently going is the one on evolution vs religion vs science etc..etc.. and it seems to still be going strong with virtually little to no flare ups at all.!!
I would say give the people the benefit of the doubt and using the "evo" thread as an example, to leave this one open and see if everyone can behave as well as they are in that thread.
:mtwcheers: |
Israel = religion + politics :lol:
tehReal~ChaZZZy - May 19, 2011 07:40 PM (GMT)
Obama just called for the state of Israel to negotiate a peace treaty with the Palestinians that would in effect make Israel revert to it's pre 1967 border.
BeBe Netanyahu has already responded:
| QUOTE |
Update: Netanyahu blasts Obama proposal, calls 1967 borders 'indefensible'
WASHINGTON — Forcefully stepping into an explosive Middle East debate, President Barack Obama on Thursday endorsed a key Palestinian demand for the borders of its future state and prodded Israel to accept that it can never have a truly peaceful nation based on "permanent occupation."
Obama's urging that a Palestinian state be based on 1967 borders — before the Six Day War in which Israel occupied East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza — was a significant shift in the U.S. approach. It drew an immediate negative response from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is to meet with Obama at the White House Friday.
In a statement released late Thursday in Jerusalem, Netanyahu called the 1967 lines "indefensible," saying such a withdrawal would jeopardize Israel's security and leave major West Bank settlements outside Israeli borders, though Obama left room for adjustments reached through negotiations.
At the same time, it was not immediately clear whether Obama's statement on the 1967 borders as the basis for negotiations — something the Palestinians have long sought — would be sufficient to persuade the Palestinians to drop their push for U.N. recognition of their statehood. Obama rejected the Palestinians' unilateral statehood bid Thursday as he sought to underscore U.S. support for Israel notwithstanding the endorsement of the 1967 borders.
"Symbolic actions to isolate Israel at the United Nations in September won't create an independent state," Obama said.
Obama's comments came in his most comprehensive response to date to the uprisings sweeping the Arab world. Speaking at the State Department, he called for the first time for the leader of Syria to embrace democracy or move aside, though without specifically demanding his ouster.
As he addressed audiences abroad and at home, Obama sought to leave no doubt that the U.S. stands behind the protesters who have swelled from nation to nation across the Middle East and North Africa, while also trying to convince American viewers that U.S. involvement in unstable countries halfway around the world is in their interest, too.
Obama said the United States has a historic opportunity and the responsibility to support the rights of people clamoring for freedoms, and he called for "a new chapter in American diplomacy."
"We know that our own future is bound to this region by the forces of economics and security; history and faith," the president said.
He hailed the killing of al-Qaida terrorist leader Osama bin Laden and declared that bin Laden's vision of destruction was fading even before U.S. forces shot him dead.
Obama said the "shouts of human dignity are being heard across the region."
The president noted that two leaders had stepped down — referring to Egypt and Tunisia — and said that "more may follow." He quoted civilian protesters who have pushed for change in Egypt, Libya, Syria and Yemen — though without noting that among those nations, only Egypt has seen the departure of a long-ruling autocratic leader.
Obama said that while there will be setbacks accompanying progress in political transitions, the movements present a valuable opportunity for the U.S. to show which side it is on. "We have a chance to show that America values the dignity of the street vendor in Tunisia more than the raw power of a dictator," he said, referring to the fruit vendor who killed himself in despair and sparked a chain of events that unleashed uprisings around the Arab world.
On the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, the president cautioned that the recent power-sharing agreement between the mainstream Palestinian faction led by Mahmoud Abbas and the radical Hamas movement that rules Gaza "raises profound and legitimate" security questions for Israel. Netanyahu has refused to deal with a Palestinian government that includes Hamas.
"How can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist?" Obama asked. "In the weeks and months to come, Palestinian leaders will have to provide a credible answer to that question."
The president ignored many of the most divisive issues separating the two sides. He did not speak about the status of Jerusalem or the fate of Palestinian refugees. And, he did not discuss a way to resolve Israel's concerns about a Hamas role in a unified Palestinian government, telling the Palestinians that they would have to address the matter themselves.
On Syria, Obama said President Bashar Assad must lead his country to democracy or "get out of the way," his most direct warning to the leader of a nation embroiled in violence. Obama said the Syrian government "has chosen the path of murder and the mass arrests of its citizens." He praised the Syrian people for their courage in standing up to repression in a bloody crackdown that has killed hundreds.
Obama said that while each country in the region is unique, there are shared values in the push for political change that will define the U.S. approach.
"Our message is simple: If you take the risks that reform entails, you will have the full support of the United States," he said.
The speech was in some ways notable for what Obama did not mention.
While critical of autocracy throughout the Mideast, he failed to mention the region's largest, richest and arguably most repressive nation, U.S. ally Saudi Arabia. Nor did he discuss Jordan, a staunch U.S. ally that has a peace deal with Israel. Also left out was the United Arab Emirates, the wealthy, pro-American collection of mini-states on the Persian Gulf. And he gave little attention to Iran, where U.S. attempts at outreach have gone nowhere.
Obama announced economic incentives aimed at steering a region roiling in violence toward democratic change that lasts, though some would require congressional approval that might prove difficult to obtain.
Among the elements of his approach:
— The canceling of roughly $1 billion in debt for Egypt. The intention is that money freed from that debt obligation would be swapped toward investments in priority sectors of the Egyptian economy, likely to focus on entrepreneurship and employment for younger people. Unemployment rates are soaring in Egypt and across the region.
— The guaranteeing of up to $1 billion in borrowing for Egypt through the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, a U.S. government institution that mobilizes private capital.
— Promises by the U.S. to launch a new trade partnership in the Middle East and North Africa and to prod world financial institutions to help Egypt and Tunisia.
--The Associated Press. |
http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/...defensible.htmlThese are the pre 1967 borders Obama has asked Israel to cede:
Aint gonna happen.
Those borders would essentially divide Israel in 2, and leave all the West Bank Israelis outside the protection of the Israeli government.
Abu of Agrabah - May 19, 2011 07:57 PM (GMT)
Nothing gonna happen, with the islamic partys coming to power in egypt and will come to power soon in other middle-east countrys, by the democratic movement, the famour democratic spring, the whole east will turn against israel again and Obama can send his weapens again to Isreal and Isreal can claim again they supress the Palestines as they treaten them.
In the end, the USA will always choose the side of Isreal, simple as that.
tehReal~ChaZZZy - May 19, 2011 09:12 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Abu of Agrabah @ May 19 2011, 12:57 PM) |
Nothing gonna happen, with the islamic partys coming to power in egypt and will come to power soon in other middle-east countrys, by the democratic movement, the famour democratic spring, the whole east will turn against israel again and Obama can send his weapens again to Isreal and Isreal can claim again they supress the Palestines as they treaten them.
In the end, the USA will always choose the side of Isreal, simple as that. |
I disagree with you Proxy...
TBH I think Obama sent a definitive message in regards to how his administration's views relations with Israel. Obama already had insulted BeBe Netanyahu early last year. This just puts an exclamation mark on what Israel and conservatives already knew.
Obama is no friend of Israel...
Cole - May 19, 2011 11:14 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (tehReal~ChaZZZy @ May 19 2011, 09:12 PM) |
| QUOTE (Abu of Agrabah @ May 19 2011, 12:57 PM) | Nothing gonna happen, with the islamic partys coming to power in egypt and will come to power soon in other middle-east countrys, by the democratic movement, the famour democratic spring, the whole east will turn against israel again and Obama can send his weapens again to Isreal and Isreal can claim again they supress the Palestines as they treaten them.
In the end, the USA will always choose the side of Isreal, simple as that. |
I disagree with you Proxy...
TBH I think Obama sent a definitive message in regards to how his administration's views relations with Israel. Obama already had insulted BeBe Netanyahu early last year. This just puts an exclamation mark on what Israel and conservatives already knew.
Obama is no friend of Israel...
|
Agreed, history shows that anytime a U.S. President makes a statement on Israel/Palestine relations, the President would show Israel the statement. Didnt happen this time, no Respect at all.
Alot of Jewish Dems are already Furious over the situation,and I can promise, this statement probably sent them over the edge.
Mercurius of Cappadocia - May 20, 2011 12:39 AM (GMT)
A good time to change the news on Israel/Palestine.... a fantastic time for Obama to come out on this issue. Like many presidents before, it's hard to see it coming to a close, but Obama needs to make a strong effort, and this is a good time to do so.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-c...og.html?hpid=z1and
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/oba...ry.html?hpid=z1Great time to focus the discussion on finding a resolution. A 2-state solution. After decades, no other solution has emerged. It's absolutely necessary for both countries as well as our national interest to find resolution.
Cole - May 20, 2011 12:51 AM (GMT)
Hmmmm, and how would you feel if those you are supposed to come to the table with denied your right of existence? Ive heard this all day by the left, " Why live in the past" ..... I mean...How stupid !!!
Mercurius of Cappadocia - May 20, 2011 12:54 AM (GMT)
I think you have to take feelings out of the equation and negotiate an equitable compromise.
Mercurius of Cappadocia - May 20, 2011 01:00 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Cole @ May 20 2011, 12:51 AM) |
| Hmmmm, and how would you feel if those you are supposed to come to the table with denied your right of existence? Ive heard this all day by the left, " Why live in the past" ..... I mean...How stupid !!! |
From Obama's speech....
| QUOTE |
| "How can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist?" Obama asked. "In the weeks and months to come, Palestinian leaders will have to provide a credible answer to that question." |
Cole - May 20, 2011 01:04 AM (GMT)
Has that happened? No !! Why even make such a statement ? Youve angered Israel, youve angered Palestinians !!
Israel on the property issues, Palestine on the fact that you would even suggest such a vile thought !!!
You cant possibly believe the Palestinians will agree to such a thing.....unless their leaders want to dragged out of their palace and beaten to death !!
Mercurius of Cappadocia - May 20, 2011 01:28 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (tehReal~ChaZZZy @ May 19 2011, 07:40 PM) |
These are the pre 1967 borders Obama has asked Israel to cede:
|
In the context of the current Arab uprising to overturn autocratic governance across the entire region, with violence, riots, civil war... and the threat of an eruption in Palestine... we must show great concern over the security of Israel, which has not seen the great unrest that we have seen regionally (at least it hasn't been much in the media before the recent shooting)... I think this choice for the opening of the dialogue, our starting position in the negotiation, is a statement intended to show balance in our interests in the region and to indicate our capacity to serve as a legitimate broker in the negotiation for peace. We don't know if this will start anything, but I think it is an important time for us to be asserting leadership on this issue.
The lack of a legitimate movement to find resolution between Israel and Palestine is the biggest risk to stability in the region, imho. Ultimately, Israel needs more than walls and soldiers to defend its security. With Iran and Syria fully willing to support unrest, benefiting from the PR struggle for the hearts and minds of the Shiite youth, finding resolution will help ease the tensions that have spawned so much violence for so many years on so many sides.
tehReal~ChaZZZy - May 20, 2011 01:40 AM (GMT)
Obama treats America's enemies with much more respect than he does it's allies.
To make this kind of statement on the eve of meeting with BeBe Netnanyahu is unconscionable.
I have a;ways disagreed with Obama's positions on the issues.
Now I am beginning to despise this Presidency...
Cole - May 20, 2011 01:59 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Mercurius of Cappadocia @ May 20 2011, 01:28 AM) |
| QUOTE (tehReal~ChaZZZy @ May 19 2011, 07:40 PM) |
These are the pre 1967 borders Obama has asked Israel to cede:
|
In the context of the current Arab uprising to overturn autocratic governance across the entire region, with violence, riots, civil war... and the threat of an eruption in Palestine... we must show great concern over the security of Israel, which has not seen the great unrest that we have seen regionally (at least it hasn't been much in the media before the recent shooting)... I think this choice for the opening of the dialogue, our starting position in the negotiation, is a statement intended to show balance in our interests in the region and to indicate our capacity to serve as a legitimate broker in the negotiation for peace. We don't know if this will start anything, but I think it is an important time for us to be asserting leadership on this issue.
The lack of a legitimate movement to find resolution between Israel and Palestine is the biggest risk to stability in the region, imho. Ultimately, Israel needs more than walls and soldiers to defend its security. With Iran and Syria fully willing to support unrest, benefiting from the PR struggle for the hearts and minds of the Shiite youth, finding resolution will help ease the tensions that have spawned so much violence for so many years on so many sides.
|
Because the U.S. knows soooo well what is best for Israel !! You think those who border Israel dont invade because they hope to someday resolve their issues?
They dont invade because there's a Nation of Freedom and down right BADASS'S to the west that will ###### THEM UP if they are stupid enough to ever have the balls to invade.....
ALLIED !!! Israel is more than a piece of freakin dirt in the middle of Hell....
Cole - May 20, 2011 02:06 AM (GMT)
I look at Israel like I look at England..... If ever the time comes that a nation ever gets the gull to invade them..... they should know that WE GOT THEIR BACKS !!!
Palestine is not going to waiver...... but after today, our Allies may need us more than ever...
tehReal~ChaZZZy - May 20, 2011 02:07 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Kronos @ May 17 2011, 09:58 AM) |
| To best sum it up I'd say it's like Mexicans trying to cross the Rio Grande and getting shot in the face. Maybe even more extreme than that considering Palestinians have a reasonable claim on Israel. It was an excessive use of force by the Israeli's but the entire situation is alot more complex than that and it'll just keep esculating at this rate. |
Thats a terribly ignorant analogy.
Mercurius of Cappadocia - May 20, 2011 02:16 AM (GMT)
This isn't the kind of language that will be met with reasoned conversation about an issue. Hard to get more provocative, really.
| QUOTE |
| terribly ignorant analogy |
| QUOTE |
| They dont invade because there's a Nation of Freedom and down right BADASS'S to the west that will ###### THEM UP if they are stupid enough to ever have the balls to invade..... |
| QUOTE |
| Obama treats America's enemies with much more respect than he does it's allies. |
| QUOTE |
I have a;ways disagreed with Obama's positions on the issues.
Now I am beginning to despise this Presidency... |
| QUOTE |
Ive heard this all day by the left, " Why live in the past" ..... I mean...How stupid !!!
|
tehReal~ChaZZZy - May 20, 2011 02:25 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Mercurius of Cappadocia @ May 19 2011, 07:16 PM) |
This isn't the kind of language that will be met with reasoned conversation about an issue. Hard to get more provocative, really.
|
The opine that Israel protecting it's borders from Arabs set on it's destruction is worse then America shooting peeps who are crossing the border illegally to look for jobs is just that...
ignorant.
Mercurius of Cappadocia - May 20, 2011 03:24 AM (GMT)
Just hoping for general civility, Chazz.
Cole - May 20, 2011 04:17 AM (GMT)
Lets see if Palestine agrees to recognize Israel.... :rolleyes:
Mercurius of Cappadocia - May 20, 2011 05:31 AM (GMT)
Yeah.... it's hard to hold up too much hope, but there has to be effort. There is nothing simple about it, and no great solution.
Dinadan of Logris - May 20, 2011 10:23 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (tehReal~ChaZZZy @ May 20 2011, 02:40 AM) |
Obama treats America's enemies with much more respect than he does it's allies.
To make this kind of statement on the eve of meeting with BeBe Netnanyahu is unconscionable.
|
What, Patriots don't have to stand up for the President's Foreign Policy anymore? :joker:
Oh, America.
"BeBe Netnanyahu", lol. Just lol. :lol: .......
| QUOTE |
I have a;ways disagreed with Obama's positions on the issues.
Now I am beginning to despise this Presidency... |
Yes. Obama will be deeply sorry to hear he has lost your friendship and respect over this issue.
Cole - May 20, 2011 10:58 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Dinadan of Logris @ May 20 2011, 10:23 AM) |
| QUOTE (tehReal~ChaZZZy @ May 20 2011, 02:40 AM) | Obama treats America's enemies with much more respect than he does it's allies.
To make this kind of statement on the eve of meeting with BeBe Netnanyahu is unconscionable.
|
What, Patriots don't have to stand up for the President's Foreign Policy anymore? :joker:
Oh, America.
"BeBe Netnanyahu", lol. Just lol. :lol: .......
| QUOTE | I have a;ways disagreed with Obama's positions on the issues.
Now I am beginning to despise this Presidency... |
Yes. Obama will be deeply sorry to hear he has lost your friendship and respect over this issue.
|
Only the Hard Left still has respect for the president over this issue.....you included
Cole - May 21, 2011 12:30 AM (GMT)
http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/Art....aspx?id=221491Alot of ticked off ppl over here......
Loved how Be Be took Obama to school today though :D
Drowningpool - May 21, 2011 01:41 AM (GMT)
God wills it! *Shakes fist!*
Dinadan of Logris - May 21, 2011 10:04 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Cole @ May 20 2011, 11:58 PM) |
| QUOTE (Dinadan of Logris @ May 20 2011, 10:23 AM) | | QUOTE (tehReal~ChaZZZy @ May 20 2011, 02:40 AM) | Obama treats America's enemies with much more respect than he does it's allies.
To make this kind of statement on the eve of meeting with BeBe Netnanyahu is unconscionable.
|
What, Patriots don't have to stand up for the President's Foreign Policy anymore? :joker:
Oh, America.
"BeBe Netnanyahu", lol. Just lol. :lol: .......
| QUOTE | I have a;ways disagreed with Obama's positions on the issues.
Now I am beginning to despise this Presidency... |
Yes. Obama will be deeply sorry to hear he has lost your friendship and respect over this issue.
|
Only the Hard Left still has respect for the president over this issue.....you included
|
Yea, maybe in the USA and Israel, it's the left. In Europe, it's the right..... :joker:
The point that this is not a new notion at all has been reiterated by Obama's staff but didn't get addressed by the israeli hardliners or your right, did it? (I havn't seen anything yet.)
| QUOTE |
| Loved how Be Be took Obama to school today though |
Did he? I missed it, what happened? :D
Mercurius of Cappadocia - May 21, 2011 01:19 PM (GMT)
The hawkish, conservative Israeli Prime Minister voiced a position that was different than the US. This came as a shock to the righty media.
They also, apparently, forgot Bush's position... and Clinton's before....
Cole - May 21, 2011 03:38 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Mercurius of Cappadocia @ May 21 2011, 01:19 PM) |
The hawkish, conservative Israeli Prime Minister voiced a position that was different than the US. This came as a shock to the righty media.
They also, apparently, forgot Bush's position... and Clinton's before.... |
Neither of them blind sided the PM on the Eve of his arrival !!
You can say what, but every news organization and critic said Obama made a bad move.
Cole - May 21, 2011 04:19 PM (GMT)
http://youtu.be/l28xJitnP78The link to the news conference
