Inspired by chazz's miracle drug topic, i thought i should start a topic on "pseudoscientific medicine", e.g. homeopathy, chiropractice, acupuncture, reiki, energy healing etc..

billions of dollars are spent on them, although they are shown not to work. question is, is it good for the economy (make people spend more, reduces number of people asking for real medicine because they sneezed in the morning, creates jobs?) or is it bad because it can be harmful, it is bad thing lying to people, or .. ? should they be banned?

Have you ever done any of those therapies Spiff?
What are your thoughts on the ones you have done?

I've had good experiences with both Chiropractic care and Acupuncture. I've had back surgery and had 2 herniated discs in the low back. Western medicine treats symptoms, while chiropractic care keeps the back in alignment and reduces the times my discs touch sciatic nerves causing the kind of muscular spasms that require medication. Nothing but surgery can cure a herniated disc, but the chiropractor helps maintenance.

I can't say much about acupuncture but I tried it to help with insomnia and I fell asleep on the table with about 30 needles in me.... was a potent effect. In Korea they mix acupuncture with a kind of bloodletting-- a few pin pricks and a glass suction cup that they say draws out dead blood and debris and promotes healing. I tried it once for the experience and I don't know what it did for me but the blood that I saw drawn from my skin was close to black and had the consistency of tomato paste. Looked as advertised to me....

Nothing seems terribly odd to me about traditional herbal medicines, such as those practiced in Asia for a couple thousand years. Green tea's antioxidant properties, for example, have been known for generations before modern medicine.

I've also had good experiences with Chiropractic.
The maintenance programs I've done have helped to keep my back 'loose' and me feeling well. Nothing but good things to say about Chiropractic medicine myself.

Yes, chiropractic is probably the most controversial one. It was invented by a magnetic healer claiming to have healed all kind of diseases including deafness using chiropractic. Today I think it is mainly used for treating back pain, although there is very little evidence (from scientific research) it works as compared to other treatment techniques, with very doubtful cost-risk-effectiveness ratios. As far as I know, nothing really works consistently well for back pain anyway.

I did have back pain problems 3 years ago. For 3 days I was stuck in my bed with incredible pain. I just took some pills. The pain went away slowly within a month or so. 3 months ago, similar incident happened to my gf. By that time I was a bit more knowledgeable about the wonders of relaxation, and reducing stress. So I brought her to a SPA where we had nice afternoon. Next day she went for a massage to relax the muscles. Within 5-6 days she was perfectly normal.

We could have gone to a chiropractic, and within some number of sessions we would still be back to normal. I would then be writing here the wonders of chiropractic.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this kind of personal anectodes (mine or yours) don't tell much about the efficacity of anything. It takes statistical analysis.

But the key point is the placebo effect. More you believe in something will work, more chance it will work. If you give one sugar pill to patients, they will in average feel better. If you give 2, they will feel even better. If you inject them sugar solution, they will feel even better. This is what experiments show. Exact mechanisms are unknown but reduced stress (of being taken care of by a smiling doctor) probably plays an important role.

Same mechanism probably applies to your insomnia anectode as well, Merc. A relaxed environment, doctors talking with a sweet voice, feeling of good care etc.. i.e., Reduced stress, sleep like a baby.

As for the antioxidants, it is shown that it makes your pee darker. That's the only effect of it, according to scientist who studied the effects. But sure, green tea must be good for you in long term (though not because of antioxidants). Most natural things, especially green vegetables, fruits are good for you. Add to this reduced fat diet, some physical exercices, low stress life, et voila :)

Also, I think it doesn't mean much that some things are believed to work for thousands of years. People have being believing in all kinds of gods and creatures for thousands of years - doesn't mean they exist.

Here is a fun little video on the wonders of placebo effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzjoKhBklYg

Pretty much the same stuff in a bottle that the old snake charmers from the old West would drive from town to town selling..... only now, they call it Homeopathic medicine.... boiled potato skins and rattlesnake tails... people pay big bucks for it.!!!
Is it cause they're so gullible.??? I mean.. people like to believe what they read and there are too many that think the miracle shortcut exists and their idea is "ah.. it's only a couple of bucks"... why not.

Proof..? how many "male enhancement" pills have been sold.? it's staggering... maybe we could coin it as the "quick fix" syndrome...

In the Army I saw stress alone crumble people. Anything from ulcers, thyroid conditions, chronic migraines, liver, kidneys, back and shoulder problems. It's amazing what stress by itself can do to someone. Much less when you also throw in what the actual problem is. Crap leadership, family seperation, combat, divorce while seperated, etc...

My Ranger unit actually had some what of an "in house" therapist. He did mental and physical therapy. He always taught us to keep the physical under control (eating, eating right, SLEEP, relaxation, yes even sex) and the mental becomes a lot easier. A body without sleep will soon be done in.

There's nothing like going through sleep deprivation training for 5 days. The first three days are all physical exertion and the last two you take a serious of exams. Maybe 5% of people pass a 7th grade math test on the 5th night.

So, I'd agree with Spiff. As with most everything, different things work for different people. I don't thing you can draw a line and say this works and this doesn't.

I used to use Chiropractic solely as a therapy to relax my back muscles and relieve stress not as a treatment for a specific malady. In that regard it worked very well.

Pseudoscientific medicine works. Persistent application will rid others of a pain in the neck. :ninja:

I go to an acquaintance who's a chiropractor. $20 bucks, less than 10 minutes, and lots of cracking cartilage later, I can once again look to the left or up like I should be able to.

How is that even useful? The only proper way of looking at things is to look to the right, and ofc you'll be looking down on persons then. :D

Impressive Din. 2 in a row.

:joker:

Not a bad price. How often do you go? Before you started going, for how long did you have your neck pain?

When I had my neck pain (I could barely check my blindspot while driving), I started being more careful with my posture, stretching once in a while, and the problem went away after a week or two.

BTW we all sound like a bunch of grandpas :joker:

Yup, homeopathy is the worse.. they have homeopathic hospitals, homeopathic manufacturers with big machines in it, spending billions of dollars. they even claim they can cure your cancer.. then when you analyze their medicine in your nearest lab, you only find water and sugar in it.

ouch , just by reading this I feel sleepy.

:o

I've had it since sometime in college. It's my upper spine. I hurt it sometime wrestling in college.

I don't go very often. Just maybe once every few months when it gets really bad and I'm walking around with my head tilted. Though it would be nice to go more often because it does seem to get rid of any discomfort for a few days.

A huge problem in todays society is that people (funny as it may sound) simply dont know how to stand up or walk correctly anymore. A lack of core stability/strength and "lazy" posture obtained from poor habits all attribute to back pain, one of the most common problems individuals suffer from. If your feeling pain in the upper part of your spine, chances are its caused by a problem that starts closer to your feet!

I work in a centre which houses several physios, all of which use acupuncture and it is simply seen as a short term fix with some placebo effects. As people rely more and more on technology and spend less time looking after themselves, professions such as these will only grow in popularity.

Yup agreed.
Strong core muscles are very important to many aspects of our health and well being.

:D

I have an aunt who's an apothecary and manages a drug store. Several years ago homeopathy came up in a conversation and I was surprised to hear she thinks it works. As far as I remember, the idea is that water somehow (structurally?) "remembers" things they made it contact, and can thus carry healing powers. So sure, you'd find water only, as there is nothing else meant to be there.

I was sceptical of it and never looked into the matter enough to be able to explain in detail how it's supposed to work, but I'm pretty sure you are supposed to find water only.

As a physicist you'll know better than me that quantitative and qualitative analysis are very different. :D

Yes Din, you are correct about the memory of water. The idea behind homeopathy is that , let's say you have one of the following issues (i just found this list from the first hit I got googling homeopath ottawa canada):

Autism Spectrum Disorder
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)
Insomnia
Longstanding phobias, fears, & nightmares
Fibromyalgia
Colitis, duodenal ulcers, & other digestive complaints
Chronic Fatigue syndrome
Multiple Sclerosis and other neurological illnesses
Asthma and other respiratory problems
Depression
Eczema, psoriasis, warts and other skin problems
whooping cough
measles, mumps, and other childhood illnesses
sprains, strains, fractures, and wounds (speeds up the healing)
labour and post delivery
coughs, earache, and tonsillitis

Then you take the "subtance" that is supposed to be the cause of the problem (for instance it can be duck liver, dont ask me why.), and dilute it in water so much that not even a single molecule of the original substance remains. More you dilute it, stronger is the solution you obtain. And it cures your issue because like cures like, supposedly.

When scientists pointed out the fact that there is nothing left but water in their solution, homeopath came up with the brilliant idea that water remembers it once contained the duck liver, and thus it works.

Scientifically, this just doesn't make sense. If there was any truth in it, that would revolutionize physics, chemistry, and biology, leading to couple of nobel prizes.

Fortunately, homeopathic pills are very easy test against placebo effect (unlike chiropractic which can be tricky), and we know it does not work better than placebo. It is a common practice to test drugs against sugar pills in medicine (called double blind test, where neither the subject nor the doctors know which drug (test drug or the placebo) is given to the subjects).

Yep, I've read that they perform like placebo, no better, which is suggestive.

So, you're saying water can't have any such "memory"?

If you asked it nicely would it recall them to you? :D

I don't talk to objects, other than my PC. :D

I am not sure what you mean by suggestive? A placebo is a pill that has no active ingredient, with the purpose of creating a psychological effect on the patient.

A homoeopathic pill is, as far as scientist are concerned, is no different than placebo, because it has no active ingredient. So it is expected that it performs like a placebo.

A drug that is efficient (such as, for instance, aspirine), is a drug that performs better than a sugar pill (placebo).

If a drug performs like a placebo, that basically means it does not perform beyond psychological effects. or if you prefer, it does not work.

For your second question, there is no known physical mechanism for the water to have such a memory.

I meant just what you said, that the tests suggest these don't really work.

I suppose they operate with mysterious "yet to be discovered" means then :joker:

The lord does work in wonderful ways :D

which is the case for pretty much any pseudoscientific (alternative, complementary) medicine. Which brings me back to my initial question:

if those stuff perform more or less like placebo, is it ethical to use them? Isn't it being dishonest to the patient? Lots of money wasted? On the other hand, well, it performs like a placebo, which is better than nothing (?)...

In my personal experience Chiropractic isn't a placebo effect.
I've seen immediate impacts on muscle relaxation which led to less back pain and stiffness.

Could be, I honestly don't know. From what I have read, the experiment results are controversial about the efficiency. Some are negative , some positive. But the number of deaths occured after spinal manipulations seem to be too high compared to the benefits, if any.

But, if you want to leave chiropractic out of the discussion subject I'm ok with that :)

Wellll, the placebo theory *could* handle that... stress relief, muscle relaxation :joker:

Could very well be. But it is hard to test.

They did the test with acupuncture, for instance, by using fake needles that don't penetrate, placed in random spots. It worked as well.

i don't know why anyone would be too suspicious of the idea that some manipulations of our body's electrical systems wouldn't have an effect on areas of the body. Needles affect the flow of energy and seem to attract energy to certain areas and divert it to others.

Magnets obviously affect anything affected by magnetic fields... cells, blood, etc. You can give someone a temporary lobotomy with a powerful enough magnet, which is how we are studying different regions of the brain right now. How can it be used for good? not my job, but I don't doubt there are potential applications.

Homeopathy... honey that is made locally contains histamines from the surrounding environment. It appears these histamines can act as a vaccine, offering a weakened form of what would normally make someone allergic, which can help build up resistance to pollen allergies. The theory seems sound to me. Or you can take an antihistamine that might put you to sleep. Whatever works.

Intuitively, I also would prefer real food vitamins than synthetic. I just don't completely believe we know all that the body needs, and something natural has a greater chance of being holistically positive, rather than the chemical specificity of 1000iuc's of Vitamin X.

Actually it sounds pretty damn unlikely that needles could be applied with a predictable beneficial effect considering that the "electrical systems" transmit on cellular level.

Din your aura is looking a little red right now.

Well in modern medicine, when engineers/scientists develop, say NMRI or PET techniques, they use well known physics laws, how particles spin around themselves, how this spin interact with magnetic fields, how antimatter interacts with matter to produce light at a given frequency (used in PET). Causes and effects are well understood, allowing to make quantitative, testable predictions..

When you introduce some kind of energy called "qi" (or chee?) in acupunture, this is a very vague definition and no one really knows what is it about. Add to that, needle positions inspired by astrology & stars positions, there is most likely something wrong with it.

But, you can argue, at the end of the day what matters is not whether we like an idea or not. What matters is whether that works or not. This is why scientists have done tests to see if acupunture works. And the result of high quality experiments is that it does not work (beyond placebo).

(not sure if you have public access to this but here is the link to the study (for back pain):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1943369...Pubmed_RVDocSum
)

For your homeopathy argument, I'm not sure why the benefits of histamine would support homeopathy or generalize to the idea that "like cures like"? There are substances which are know to have drug effects and once discovered they are tested to see if they perform beyond placebo, if yes they are then used to produce drugs, they become modern medicine. Homeopathic medicine don't perform beyond placebo, which is why they are not considered to be modern medicine.

James Randi explains it much better than I did, why homeopathy doesn't make much sense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U

Regarding multivitamine pills, I agree with you. They are shown not to work, but yet people uses them daily, wasting away millions of dollars yearly.

:joker:

I think you are a little too enamored with the sense of certainty of your conclusions, Tristan. You accept the various ways that "science" has found medically useful treatments that are derived from traditional medicine, of the kind that are currently labelled herbal or "homeopathic". The traditional medicine of yesterday, then, is a part of the science of today. So, if it works it's contemporary, but if someone's double blind test produces unclear results, it's voodoo?

There is uncertainty, not certainty. And there is uncertainty in contemporary medicine as well... I don't have a lot of certainty about contemporary drugs, but I'll do what the doctor says, generally speaking.

This is your study....

It says it works but it is unclear how or why. Acupuncture didn't appear yesterday... it's been studied and practiced for a couple thousand years by serious people who spend years studying before practicing. That is an argument for uncertainty, not certainty... to me.

Vitamins have been "shown not to work? You do know that your local doctor will prescribe vitamins if needed, and that doctors give vitamins to emaciated patients, and if you don't get vitamin C you'll end up with scurvy. Vitamins work, and vitamin pills work. That wasn't my argument. My argument is that synthetically produced vitamins are not as good as organically produced vitamins because I'd wager that there are spectrum of nutrients in organic that are not understood by our science... yet.

But synthetic vitamin C will keep you from getting scurvy. definitely.

This argument has already been proven, especially at an amino acid level. Manufactured supplements do not provide the body with everything it needs, there simply is not enough variety.