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 They're Coming, UN Appoints Abassador to Greet Aliens
Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Sep 28 2010, 06:59 AM


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UN 'to appoint space ambassador to greet alien visitors'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8...n-visitors.html


And who knew we had an "United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs"?
http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/


Last Spring I had lunch with an astrophysicist who works on the Keppler Mission (occupational perk), which started up in the summer and is already making discoveries. This is a satellite designed to detect exoplanets around stars (e.g. earth-like planets). Based on the kind of environmental factors that allowed life to exist on Earth, they have defined a "habitable zone". They've made 10 or so "confirmed" discoveries in the first couple months, but they also have 700 "planet candidates". These are being processed to rule out false discoveries. Some planets will take a long time to be "confirmed" as they may have to do a full circle around their stars in order to be confirmed. Consequently, the planets they are confirming now are close to their sun, making for quick revolutions... and very hot planets.
http://kepler.nasa.gov/

But the point must be taken seriously.... in the next 1-2 years we will have confirmed potentially hundreds of planets that are in conceivably "habitable" zones of distance from their suns (relative to size/heat). The same physics that allows life on our planet is at play on these other planets.... What occurs on our planet cannot be utterly dissimilar to other planets in similar zones. Water come from various sources, including collisions with comets over billions of years... on hot planets it turns to gas, on cool planets it freezes. On planets in "habitable zones", it has potential....

There are 3-400 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy. This astrophysicist said there are over 200 billion galaxies in the perceivable universe... and probably many more (suggesting 350-500 is the next visible horizon).

So, hundreds of billions of stars in each galaxy. Each star could have multiple planets orbiting, obviously. 300 billion stars could equal 2.4 trillion planets, but probably not many in "habitable zones". We can guess there is not one "habitable" planet for every star... maybe not one in 100. 1 in 300 would leave us with 1 billion planets in "habitable zones".

But remember there are 200-500 billion galaxies in the universe.... And, we now think it plausible that there could be multiple "universes".


There has to be life on other planets. Even if the numbers are beyond what the average human mind can conceive.....



And if you look at it from a geological/evolutionary standpoint, we know that planetary life can happen relatively quickly.... after .65 billion years of Earth's existence, life appears to have formed, 3.6 billion years ago. The universe is 13.75 billion years old.... Apes came about 28 million years ago. Homo Sapiens came about 500,000 years ago. Civilizations evolved after the last ice age (unless you're one of those Atlantis believers, or etc.), 12k years ago... Of course, we can date tribal/clan activity going back many thousands of years before that.... we were pwning Neanderthal 30k years ago.

But 350 years ago we didn't know what gravity was.... 150 years ago, we learned to fly, 60 years ago we went to the moon, and now we are confirming planets around other stars..... and the pace of discovery is increasing, not decreasing. We're tapping into fusion. We're tapping into nanotech, which will give us the ability to manufacture from the atomic level (Think: "replicator, make me a chocolate donut and a laptop."... and think of building materials that are dozens of times stronger than existing materials).

Interesting, still, that the U.N believes it is time to consider extra-terrestrial diplomacy.... What else could they know?
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Sep 28 2010, 12:42 PM


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Woo, sci-fi!

The UN emissary to aliens has an easy job, we already know what to tell the aliens: d, e, c, C, G biggrin.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUcOaGawIW0

UNOOSA? Didn't know the name. Knew that the UN has been trying to prevent human conflict in space for some time. It's not about aliens.

The Kepler mission, moderately interesting. They're looking for liquid water on small exoplanets that we can't travel to, what's that about? Looking for life? "Habitable" shouldn't have much to do with what humans like, or even with Earth-like circumstances. Creatures can easily live in an environment hazardous for humans, with hugely different pressure / temperature from what we prefer. The thing is a bit pointless while we can't get out of our solar system.

We have known how to fly for over 200 years. Baloons. Anyways, I don't think our technology in materials or propulsion is the issue. If there really are aliens on Earth, they must know a shorter/simpler way.. time travel! biggrin.gif But the lack of public contact says there aren't. And the lack of a shorter way will make us stay home too.

BTW, I lolread on a CNN hosted blog that aliens are watching nukes.. the guy actually thinks it's a benevolent warning. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/27/ufos-...nel-say/?hpt=T2
I on the other hand think the new UN emissary should also have a copy of Crysis ready for diplomatic purposes.
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Kronos
Posted: Sep 28 2010, 04:54 PM





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QUOTE
So, hundreds of billions of stars in each galaxy. Each star could have multiple planets orbiting, obviously. 300 billion stars could equal 2.4 trillion planets, but probably not many in "habitable zones". We can guess there is not one "habitable" planet for every star... maybe not one in 100. 1 in 300 would leave us with 1 billion planets in "habitable zones"


You're forgetting there's also a habitable zone within Galaxies themselves, too far away from the galactic centre and there won't be enough heavy elements that are needed to create complex molecules and particularly for complex life they're required to form rocky planets, complex molecules and sources of energy. Too close and most of the stars are old/dying there's way too much radiation for dna and much more blackholes and other such things that are harmful bto life as we know it.

I'd guesstimate there probably was simple life at some point within our solar system on a different planet/moon (venus/mars/Titan/Triton/Europa to name a few). Possibly still life on one or more of them but they all have the potential with heat, water and a mechanism to create organic molecules.

So it stands to reason that within the Milky way galaxies habitable zone there's multiple planets with simple lifeforms, 1 in every thousand Stars having a planet within the habitable zone with all the requirements isn't an unreasonable presumption and would lifely be the bare minimum, then it's only a matter of time. After that point and the forming of cell walls, if you have a billion years of evolution you'll almost certainly end up with more complex life.

The difficult part is when we get to intelligent life as it's taken over 4 billion years on Earth under relatively stable conditions for the last 3 billion years so I wouldn't have a clue about probabilities but there may very well be a handful although I have nothing but intuition to base that on.

I very much doubt aliens have or will visit us however as quite frankly the laws of physics don't allow for long distance travel unless you have the ability to bend space or something rediculously advanced (if at all possible) plus we aren't very interesting.
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Pete of Yorkshire
Posted: Sep 28 2010, 06:34 PM


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what we need is a stargate joker.gif
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Sep 28 2010, 07:51 PM


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QUOTE (Kronos @ Sep 28 2010, 05:54 PM)
I very much doubt aliens have or will visit us however as quite frankly the laws of physics don't allow for long distance travel unless you have the ability to bend space or something rediculously advanced (if at all possible) plus we aren't very interesting.

Even if I agree on the main point, here I'll have to say.. speak for yourself tongue.gif
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Sep 28 2010, 07:55 PM


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QUOTE (Pete of Yorkshire @ Sep 28 2010, 07:34 PM)
what we need is a stargate joker.gif

I hear we've even got 2 of those: one somewhere in Egypt under a dusty rock and one somewhere in the Arctic under a frozen rock. cool.gif

Unfortunately, Abs chose the military instead of archeology, so nobody's ever gonna find them. People just aren't driven enough. biggrin.gif
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Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Sep 29 2010, 04:13 AM


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QUOTE (Kronos @ Sep 28 2010, 04:54 PM)


I very much doubt aliens have or will visit us however as quite frankly the laws of physics don't allow for long distance travel unless you have the ability to bend space or something rediculously advanced (if at all possible) plus we aren't very interesting.

For a science-guy, this is oddly myopic! Considering the pace of scientific advancement that we've observed in our own lifetimes, relative to the potential time that life could exist in the universe, or on our planet alone, nothing should be ruled out as possible.

Advance our species 100 years... or 500.... 1000... 10,000... 1,000,000.... 10,000,000 and so on. What we know for certain is that much will prove possible of what we currently find improbable. That happens quickly....

So.... If you allow for a number of planets, out of the trillions in our galaxy alone, to have achieved biological complexity, it is easy to imagine the intellectual 'coming of age' of an alien civilization to have occurred hundreds, thousands, or millions of years before humanity's coming of age.


Alien interest in our civilization could be just the same as our interest in what happened to the Neanderthal. Scientists don't need to be entertained by their topics....

But think of how many movies we've made about penguins alone....
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Caradoc of Mercia
Posted: Sep 29 2010, 11:31 AM


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Penguins look funny though. tongue.gif

I personally think it's highly probable, if not certain that some kind of intelligent alien life form exists, but odds on they'd be either highly (read millions of years) more advanced or highly less advanced than us. Highly more advanced, they'd probably not see the point in making contact, the same way as we don't bother making contact with the bacteria in a garden, and if less advanced, they wouldn't have the capability to.

So spending effort in trying to make contact is a bit of a waste of effort that could be better applied in actually doing something worthwhile with tangible benefits.
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Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Sep 30 2010, 08:23 AM


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Wow... quick action. smile.gif

First habitable planet outside solar system is found
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ml?hpid=topnews


Not from the Kepler mission.... I think they stayed up many nights trying to get this out before Kepler. Imagine... 11 years preparing to release this "discovery", and you know this satellite is about to start pumping out "discoveries" rapidly..... lol. They had a busy summer.... laugh.gif
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Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Sep 30 2010, 10:04 AM


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QUOTE (Caradoc of Mercia @ Sep 29 2010, 11:31 AM)

I personally think it's highly probable, if not certain that some kind of intelligent alien life form exists, but odds on they'd be either highly (read millions of years) more advanced or highly less advanced than us. Highly more advanced, they'd probably not see the point in making contact, the same way as we don't bother making contact with the bacteria in a garden, and if less advanced, they wouldn't have the capability to.



Life exists here, so we know life exists in the universe. The only way we can be the "only" "intelligent" life in the universe is if we are the first to achieve advanced civilization. But that is unlikely, as the pace of advancement of life, witnessed on our planet, and the pace of technological advancement of intelligent civilizations, as we've seen in the last 200 years... all of this is a minor blip compared to the age of the universe. The likelihood that we are the first, then, is small. We're a blip....

The universe is full of commonalities.... elements distributed in predictable ways, all governed by the same physical laws... planets are round because of gravity... fibonnacci spirals exist everywhere because they are the most efficient expression of a spiral. Humans and apes share 92-98% of the same dna sequence. Everything that lives has some instinct for survival. Nothing in our understanding of the universe would suggest that the process of evolution of life is confined to our atmosphere. A star, or sun equals energy, here or anywhere. Something that is alive wants energy.



And... why are we boring? we have the capacity to wipe out an entire planet, through nukes, biochem, consumption, pollution, and we're working on a variety of new means (nanotech alone represents multiple ways that we can destroy ourselves or others). And we have no problem killing off other species, or other tribes of our own species. We've been killing other species throughout our evolutionary track. We've been killing other tribes of humans or humanoids for just as long. It's in our genes... we're tribal.

For example:
QUOTE
Under the Outer Space Treaty on 1967, which Unoosa oversees, UN members agreed to protect Earth against contamination by alien species by “sterilising” them.


We're evolutionary constructs. If you are left on the outside of the tribe, you die. This is why advertising that focuses on "belonging" or alienation is effective. This advertising is effective in any language on the planet. It's an evolutionary construct. Recent research through brain-scanning shows that when people are concerned about being left outside of the "group", it triggers the part of the brain that processes pain. Alone/outside= pain. Pain is bad, pleasure is good. And the result is that humans will kill each other to not be left on the outside, and we'll do almost anything imaginable in service to the tribe, even the most boring things imaginable... on the scale of shitty jobs, studying an emerging civilization wouldn't even rate.

Commonalities, everyway you consider or observe the universe and what's in it.....


No idea why I'm not playing a game.....
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Sep 30 2010, 10:19 AM


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QUOTE (Mercurius of Cappadocia @ Sep 30 2010, 11:04 AM)
For example:
QUOTE
Under the Outer Space Treaty on 1967, which Unoosa oversees, UN members agreed to protect Earth against contamination by alien species by “sterilising” them.


Haha, so it is about "aliens", at least in part. And no alien babies for earth, how reassuring--- gc-rifle.gif

That "habitable" exoplanet is pretty close @20 light years, I'd jump right over for some exploring fun.. if only I had no mass. laugh.gif

IMO Cow underdestimates curiosity and the fun that comes of it. If bacteria from the garden could communicate intelligent thoughts, I have not the slightest doubt some of us would be talking to them. Homo ludens FTW cool.gif

QUOTE
No idea why I'm not playing a game.....

Steam down? tongue.gif

This post has been edited by Dinadan of Logris on Sep 30 2010, 10:19 AM
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Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Sep 30 2010, 10:26 AM


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bah... people talk to plants.

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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Sep 30 2010, 11:22 AM


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q.e.d. joker.gif
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Drowningpool
Posted: Oct 1 2010, 01:57 AM





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Nuke them all
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Oct 1 2010, 08:04 AM


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That's an option.. should they linger in range! gc-rifle.gif
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Pete of Yorkshire
Posted: Oct 1 2010, 03:41 PM


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QUOTE (Dinadan of Logris @ Sep 30 2010, 10:19 AM)


IMO Cow underdestimates curiosity and the fun that comes of it. If bacteria from the garden could communicate intelligent thoughts, I have not the slightest doubt some of us would be talking to them. Homo ludens FTW  cool.gif


common din we already do communicate with bacteria.




QUOTE (Drowningpool)
    Nuke them all


This post has been edited by Pete of Yorkshire on Oct 1 2010, 03:42 PM
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Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Oct 5 2010, 08:19 PM


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This year's physics prize....plastic wrap that can support the weight of a truck bearing down on a pencil point.

Thinnest material in the world and one of the strongest (next to other nano-materials--nanotubes are stronger-- this is more like a nano-sheet))... conducts heat better than anything known... and made of the most common stuff in the universe. And it will help create "novel tests of quantum weirdness", lol.....

What are we going to do with that?

QUOTE
Physics Nobel Honors Work on Ultra-Thin Carbon
By DENNIS OVERBYE


Graphene is a form of carbon in which the atoms are arranged in a flat hexagon lattice like microscopic chicken wire, a single atom thick. It is not only the thinnest material in the world, but also one of the strongest. If scaled up to the thickness of plastic refrigerator wrap, a sheet of graphene stretched over a coffee cup could support the weight of a truck bearing down on a pencil point, according to tests conducted by two Columbia University researchers, Jeffrey Kysar and James Hone.

Among its other properties, [B]graphene is able to conduct electricity as well as copper does and to conduct heat better than any other known material, and it is completely transparent. Physicists say that it could eventually rival silicon as a basis for computer chips, serve as a sensitive pollution-monitoring material, improve flat screen televisions, and enable the creation of new materials and novel tests of quantum weirdness, among other things.


In a statement, the Royal Academy said, “Carbon, the basis of all known life on earth, has surprised us once again.”
QUOTE
Dr. Geim and Dr. Novoselov first succeeded in creating flakes of graphene by peeling them off piles of graphite — the material that is in your pencil lead — using Scotch tape.


Oh, and... lol

QUOTE
Because of graphene’s structure, he explained, electrons moving through it do not act like the billiard balls of classic physics, bumping from atom to atom, but rather like waves moving at the speed of light.

“That’s a new kind of thing to study. It’s like the Large Hadron Collider, but on your desktop,” Dr. Geim said in his ScienceWatch.com interview.

What's the significance of a material that changes the way electrons move? Particularly if you can use it as a building material and a conductor?

As a building material, the significance is obvious...it's 100's of times stronger and thinner than anything we have, completely transparent and conducts electricity and heat. And it's made out of carbon. We could build things of astonishing proportions and strength...and also vastly more energy efficiency, I would think.

Bubble cities? completely climate controlled? coming to a Saudi near you?


Who knows what we'll do.....
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Abu of Agrabah
Posted: Oct 5 2010, 09:47 PM


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Dont forget to mention, he got a dutch passport cool.gif

Was all over the news in Holland as he did his discovery partly here, however, good as it is, they cant mass produce it yet, they got 1 sheet with the size of an a4 paper made in korea, but thats the largest part in the world.

This post has been edited by Abu of Agrabah on Oct 5 2010, 09:47 PM
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Oct 6 2010, 08:31 AM


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I'm not sure where production technology (and joining pieces of the material together) stands ATM, but no doubt the Nobel publicity will have further raised interest in graphene or even awareness... mine was raised by Crysis biggrin.gif
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Oct 11 2010, 08:26 AM


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Apropos life, it seems there may be a "new" type of chlorofyll ("chlorofyll-f") that has its peak energy absorbtion in the near-infrared range of the spectrum. This would allow organisms to "feed" on low-energy photons and is asserted to have been the life force of bacteria/algae living in dark and hot environments on Earth as much as 3.5 bn years ago. For us, it might provide new possibilities in solar energy use.

Links:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....orm-chlorophyll
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2010/08/20/...red-solar-cell/

This post has been edited by Dinadan of Logris on Oct 11 2010, 08:34 AM
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Kronos
Posted: Oct 11 2010, 09:59 AM





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QUOTE (Mercurius of Cappadocia @ Sep 29 2010, 04:13 AM)
QUOTE (Kronos @ Sep 28 2010, 04:54 PM)


I very much doubt aliens have or will visit us however as quite frankly the laws of physics don't allow for long distance travel unless you have the ability to bend space or something rediculously advanced (if at all possible) plus we aren't very interesting.

For a science-guy, this is oddly myopic! Considering the pace of scientific advancement that we've observed in our own lifetimes, relative to the potential time that life could exist in the universe, or on our planet alone, nothing should be ruled out as possible.

Advance our species 100 years... or 500.... 1000... 10,000... 1,000,000.... 10,000,000 and so on. What we know for certain is that much will prove possible of what we currently find improbable. That happens quickly....

So.... If you allow for a number of planets, out of the trillions in our galaxy alone, to have achieved biological complexity, it is easy to imagine the intellectual 'coming of age' of an alien civilization to have occurred hundreds, thousands, or millions of years before humanity's coming of age.


Alien interest in our civilization could be just the same as our interest in what happened to the Neanderthal. Scientists don't need to be entertained by their topics....

But think of how many movies we've made about penguins alone....


Well let me put it this way, we know enough about the universe now to know that there's only a handful of ways to conduct long distance travel:

1) travelling close to the speed of light which would still take a long long time and would require even longer due to the G-Forces on a body from accelarating to quickly. This is simply not feasable for any non-milky way intelligent life forms and there's potentially only <50 intelligent Milky Way lifeforms that ever existed (let alone exist currently) as a conservative estimate, by which I mean more advanced than Neandathals.

2) Transversable wormholes, probably the easiest and most likely transport method, but still requires negative mass of roughly 10^27 kg for a 1m^3 entrance. The only known way of theoretically creating negative mass is with exotic matter and you'd need alot of it. So this would require a very advanced civilization and even when you've built one you still need to transport one end to your destination at sublight speeds.

3) Subspace: Basically leaving our universe and travelling through another with more favourable laws of physics, (see 4).

4) Warp drive, basically bending spacetime infront of your spaceship so you're not actually travelling faster than light, but the universe directly infront of you is contracting allowing faster than light travel. If you thought 2 was hard then think again. This would actually require manipulating the universe and if you can do that then you're not far away from leaving the universe to go/do whatever you like inclusive of creating your own universe with your ideal laws of physics.

If you can do any of the above you have the computational power to build a model universe (or a trillion) on your computer and play them out in a couple of days with whatever starting parameters you wish. Once you've seen every possible outcome for life I'm pretty sure you'd lose interest in one possibility that happened to form naturally (us).

This post has been edited by Kronos on Oct 11 2010, 10:00 AM
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Caradoc of Mercia
Posted: Oct 11 2010, 12:37 PM


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QUOTE (Kronos @ Oct 11 2010, 09:59 AM)
Well let me put it this way, we know enough about the universe now to know that there's only a handful of ways to conduct long distance travel:

One thing I would say is that surely what we actually know is that we don't know that much about the Universe.
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Oct 11 2010, 04:01 PM


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Lao-Cow says: you are not a Wise person joker.gif
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Kronos
Posted: Oct 11 2010, 06:07 PM





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QUOTE (Caradoc of Mercia @ Oct 11 2010, 12:37 PM)
QUOTE (Kronos @ Oct 11 2010, 09:59 AM)
Well let me put it this way, we know enough about the universe now to know that there's only a handful of ways to conduct long distance travel:

One thing I would say is that surely what we actually know is that we don't know that much about the Universe.

We don't know much about some things in the universe such as dark matter/energy/fluid, the workings of the quantum scale, things outside of the universe(multiverse?) and some other cutting edge stuff. However regarding ftl travel we've covered most of the bases as there's only a finite number of ways of getting around relativity. What we know isn't all encompassing, but we've licked the surface and some things are fairly clear cut - this just happens to be one of those things.
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Oct 11 2010, 08:53 PM


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"You" did not even cover a most basic sci-fi idea on "long range travel": the long trek through space with slow & large habitable craft through the lifetime of several generations, searching for a new homeworld so that humanity may survive! joker.gif

At any rate, all scientific stuff or science if you will is based on universe models which aren't necessarily true, merely our current understanding of things. And that is a fact. Thus spoke Lao-Cow.

This post has been edited by Dinadan of Logris on Oct 11 2010, 08:55 PM
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Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Oct 12 2010, 05:52 AM


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UFO Clips!!!!! Yeah.

Yes, I spent an hour watching UFO clips on YouTube. haha. But I did have beer also. medievalcheers.gif


Astronauts talking about UFO's:

Buzz Aldrin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkV1ybBnHI&feature=related

Gordon Cooper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc&feature=related

The Russians:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOSKLuZjQC8


This one was seen by thousands in Phoenix... even the Governor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3zotvpZLnY&feature=related

A lot of NASA footage showing odd or oddly moving objects:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyFq49YBN20



I have no idea what our most famous astronauts have to gain by lying about what they believe they saw.... no visible signs of lying.. .no blinking, micro-expressions, glances in the wrong directions. ... they're not delusional... they obviously know what they are talking about... training in aerodynamics, physics, engineering.... and no motif, other than some elaborate scheme to deceive the public.

So, no motif. Ocham's razor. The probability that they are lying is very low, imho. That doesn't mean they aren't lying, of course... but it's eye-witness testimony from credible entities. Hard to ignore.
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Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Oct 12 2010, 07:03 AM


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Fox News loves UFO's, which is interesting.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQvAD7By7d8

This one is hilarious...especially as it is being used as an ad to recruit neo-nazis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmbSupnmK8k
at 1:16, the NASA guy says "over the years we have chased many, many, many of these things...." Later another NASA guy says it was probably lost trash from the shuttle...


Fox and fringe conservatives.... hmm.... fueling the conspiracy theory crowd? If you believe in UFO's, you can believe that Obama created the recession, has a fake birth certificate, wants to put people in FEMA camps, and is a Muslim? ok.... hah. Probably the New World Order crowd.... I guess that is their demographic.
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Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Oct 12 2010, 07:26 AM


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QUOTE (Dinadan of Logris @ Oct 11 2010, 08:26 AM)
Apropos life, it seems there may be a "new" type of chlorofyll ("chlorofyll-f") that has its peak energy absorbtion in the near-infrared range of the spectrum. This would allow organisms to "feed" on low-energy photons and is asserted to have been the life force of bacteria/algae living in dark and hot environments on Earth as much as 3.5 bn years ago. For us, it might provide new possibilities in solar energy use.

[/URL]

The reach of "life" is clearly beyond our grasp.....

(but there has been progress).
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Oct 12 2010, 10:59 AM


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Ockham's razor, really? IMHO, and I bet this has been said by others, the razor may as well predict here that UFOs are merely unidentified, not unidentified AND alien. "Aliens" are not even a simpler explanation than equipment failure, people playing games, a military excercise, space rubble etc. at all - only more sensational. There need not be a pattern, we are just programmed to look for one everywhere.

The videos and tapes around are either clearly fake or completely unverifiable, but they can make money and faking them is also a fun hobby.

Buzz Aldrin, well.. this is a cut and edited piece of footage, and he would earn money with publicity. I wonder if they have a statement from his wingmen.

The rest, even worse: electric space music and cheesy narrators.. joker.gif

But it's tolerable entertainment, unless overdosed.
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Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Oct 14 2010, 04:45 AM


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QUOTE (Dinadan of Logris @ Oct 12 2010, 10:59 AM)
Ockham's razor, really? IMHO, and I bet this has been said by others, the razor may as well predict here that UFOs are merely unidentified, not unidentified AND alien. "Aliens" are not even a simpler explanation than equipment failure, people playing games, a military excercise, space rubble etc. at all - only more sensational. There need not be a pattern, we are just programmed to look for one everywhere.


Let me put it another way....

If I said "I have weeds in my yard, and some of them have been there for far longer than others," you would have no problem with the complexity of biological evolution leading up to the fact of weeds in my yard. It wouldn't seem odd that certain plants, or even species are older than others. You would believe that claim far more easily than the opposite, that "I have no weeds in my yard..." or, even more ridiculous, that "there has only ever been one weed in my yard." We know life is more persistent than that... if you have a yard, you have weeds.

We know life exists in the universe. And some of it is older than others.
That's the simplest explanation.


To explain away all of these sightings we need multiple complicated explanations that are incapable of answering all examples. There is no unifying theory that explains the various observational phenomena.

Secret military technology, mass delusion, unexplainable phenomena of nature, or explainable phenomena of nature... it takes a slew of independently complicated explanations to cast doubt on a rather large pattern of observations... and the likelihood of all being right is low.

For example... money and ego... we must presume that many of these people who bear witness to UFO's are driven by ego, money or both. Sure. Yes, that is a sufficient motif for lying. But this does not tell us if they are lying--it certainly doesn't tell us that all of them are lying. They could be driven by ego and money, but carrying the truth. In any case, we shouldn't presume that everyone who claims some experience is motivated enough by money and ego to lie.

Furthermore, what if it is not true in only one significant case? What if Gordon Cooper, for example, actually saw what he says he saw when he says he saw it? This alone defeats all of the "complicated explanations" that would have you deny the claim.... his experience flying around a formation of UFOs cannot be explained by military technology and it certainly wasn't the "sea pods" that became the "official explanation".

Of course it is, to you and me alike, just an intellectual game... we have no evidence that cannot be doubted. I have no experience on the matter and very limited knowledge. If I had to "wager my salvation on a prophecy based on incomplete knowledge", I would bet on the probability of diverse, complicated life interspersed in predictable ways throughout the universe.

Of course, it's certainly not problematic to remain skeptical until proven otherwise....
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Oct 14 2010, 12:37 PM


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QUOTE
To explain away all of these sightings we need multiple complicated explanations that are incapable of answering all examples. There is no unifying theory that explains the various observational phenomena.


I already said in the part you quoted that there is no need for a pattern to exist. There simply isn't. Events can be unrelated.

The alien "explanation", does not even satisfy your criteria, as it certainly does not account for all UFO sightings. At least some of these are known to be faked or just a matter of ignorance. For the rest, as long as the theory can't say how and why aliens are here, it's no explanation at all.

As long as a pattern is known, people will match their experience to it, and still the pattern can be false. This can well explain UFO sightings coming from honest people. Saw something, heard of this, sense a connection.

Cooper doesn't know what he saw, and you can leave things right at that, the single fact in his report. Sure, theorizing is fun and sometimes, fruitful. I have a theory about why aliens avoid professional cameramen.

I'm not sold on that "what if" idea. What if just one from all the people who "saw" witchcraft happen in their time was right? I'd still like to meet the witch before I fully trust that evidence. ninja.gif

Of course, if something huge is at stake, you want to go with the safe option. There's SETI for that.
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Mercurius of Cappadocia
Posted: Oct 14 2010, 09:05 PM


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QUOTE (Dinadan of Logris @ Oct 14 2010, 12:37 PM)


Cooper doesn't know what he saw, and you can leave things right at that, the single fact in his report.... I have a theory about why aliens avoid professional cameramen.


Hah! Funny what you can find with Google.

Here's congressional testimony on the 1957 encounter on Edwards Airforce Base in '57.

QUOTE
3. Case 41. Edwards AFB, May 3, 1957:

Occasionally, one could argue, UFOs ought to come into areas where there were persons engaged in photographic work, who were trained to react a bit faster, and who would secure some photos. One such instance evidently occurred at Edwards AFB on the morning of 5/3/57. I have managed to locate and interview three persons who saw the resultant photos. The two who observed the UFO and obtained a number of photos of it were James D. Bittick and John R. Gettys, Jr., both of whom I have interviewed. They were at the time Askania cameramen on the test range, and spotted the domed-disc UFO just as they reached Askania #4 site at Edwards, a bit before 8:00 a.m. that day. They immediately got into communication with the range director, Frank E. Baker, whom I have also interviewed, and they asked if anyone else was manning an Askania that could be used to get triangulation shots. Since no other camera operators were on duty at other sites, Baker told them to fire manually, and they got a number of shots before the object moved off into the distance. Bittick estimated that the object lay about a mile away when they got the first shot, though when first seen he put it at no more than 500 yards off. He and Gettys both said it had a golden color, looked somewhat like an inverted plate with a dome on top, and had square holes or panels around the dome. Gettys thought that the holes were circular not square. It was moving away from them, seemed to glow with its own luminosity, and had a hazy, indistinct halo around its rim, both mentioned. The number of shots taken is uncertain; Gettys thought perhaps 30. The object was lost from sight by the time it moved out to about five miles or so, and they did not see it again. They drove into the base and processed the film immediately. All three of the men I interviewed emphasized that the shots taken at the closer range were very sharp, except for the hazy rim. They said the dome and the markings or openings showed in the photos. The photos were shortly taken by Base military authorities and were never seen again by the men. In a session later that day, Bittick and Carson were informed that they had seen a weather balloon distorted by the desert atmospheric effects, an interpretation that neither of them accepted since, as-they stated to me, they saw weather balloons being released frequently there and knew what balloons looked like. Accounts got into local newspapers, as well as on wire services (Ref. 44). An Edwards spokesman was quoted in the Los Angeles Times as saying, "This desert air does crazy things." An INS wire-story said, "intelligence officers at Edwards...would say almost nothing of the incident."

--This statement has been submitted by James E. McDonald, Senior Physicist, Institute of Atmospheric Physics, and professor, Department of Meteorology, The University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona, to the House Committee on Science and Astronautics at July 29, 1968, Symposium on Unidentified Flying Objects, Rayburn Bldg., Washington, D.C.


Wow.. .weather balloons again.... either those are the most under appreciated technologies on the planet, or they just don't have too many ways to explain away a non-natural object sighting like this.


"Cooper doesn't know what he saw"... this is a "it depends on what is, is" retort... you can say the same thing about any sensory phenomena. If you are talking about cognitive knowledge, same problem... think Descartes.


Again... the only explanation is that these people are all lying about what they say they observed (and photographed). Professional photographers, up-close with various kinds of professional equipment used to observe experimental military aircraft flights. Film and still.... all in government custody, despite the explanation of a "weather balloon"... a 1957 weather balloon.
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Dinadan of Logris
Posted: Oct 15 2010, 08:32 AM


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QUOTE
3. Case 41. Edwards AFB, May 3, 1957:

That's yet another second-hand story without photos but with conspiracy, Cooper told one already in the YouTube clip. I was actually thinking motion pictures, those being somewhat harder to fake, but never mind that. Apparently officials are always there to lie and confiscate the material evidence anyways and nobody even thinks of hiding a roll of film even when they have the chance.

QUOTE
"Cooper doesn't know what he saw"... this is a "it depends on what is, is" retort... you can say the same thing about any sensory phenomena. If you are talking about cognitive knowledge, same problem... think Descartes

I know I'm staring at a computer screen right now. But C. couldn't even estimate the size of the objects (if it were objects at all). This isn't philosophical.

So who saw what? Are alien spaceships triangles, cones, cigars, globes or saucers? Are they grey, white, red, yellow, silver or gold? Are they smaller than figher jets or larger than a block of houses? Do they display flashing lights or glow at all times? Do they come in twos, threes, hundreds or just one ship at a time? Do the aliens ever land and leave the spacecraft or are they just joyriding in the skies?

Weather balloons, yea. People chuckle at that. They still make up for a number of UFO sightings.

QUOTE
Again... the only explanation is that these people are all lying about what they say they observed (and photographed).

No, the explanation was that they saw a weather balloon in the crazy desert heat, not that they lied. wink.gif

This post has been edited by Dinadan of Logris on Oct 15 2010, 08:42 AM
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Kronos
Posted: Oct 15 2010, 09:04 AM





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Interesting fact: UFO reports didn't really start before the 1940's, after there had already been many invasion from space type movies.

People thinking UFO's are Aliens is utterly rediculous. For one thing if their intent was to hide from us, hence why sightings are rare then they'd simply use meta materials and many other advanced things so we would never have the foggiest idea. If they don't care about us sightings would be much more obvious and there's nothing stopping them staying in a stationary location for a long time so people can take proper photographs of them, in non visible spectrus and do some proper research. I haven't seen 1 remotely credible UFO claim that could possibly be of Alien origin as opposed to natural phenomena, fake or terrestrial objects. This is simply obsurd.

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Caradoc of Mercia
Posted: Oct 15 2010, 12:42 PM


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QUOTE (Kronos @ Oct 11 2010, 06:07 PM)
We don't know much about some things in the universe such as dark matter/energy/fluid, the workings of the quantum scale, things outside of the universe(multiverse?) and some other cutting edge stuff. However regarding ftl travel we've covered most of the bases as there's only a finite number of ways of getting around relativity. What we know isn't all encompassing, but we've licked the surface and some things are fairly clear cut - this just happens to be one of those things.

Dark matter etc itself might not exist either, it could be just pointing to our current models being wrong.

I remember reading some time ago (so it's possible I might be confusing things tongue.gif ) about the search for a potential planet "X" in our solar system (this was in pre-Einstein days). It was noticed that the outer planet's orbits were not exactly corresponding to Newtonian theory, so many thought this indicated the existence of another major planet giving a gravitational pull, so many tried calculating orbits and looking for it unsuccessfully. Einstein's theory of General Relativity however later explained the differences without the need for another gravitational source. I just wonder whether we're just witnessing the same thing with the current search for "dark matter".

I would agree that most (if not all) UFOs are probably just atmospheric phenomena, meteorites or hallucinations etc, I wouldn't regard it as impossible or absurd (note the spelling tongue.gif ) though that some sightings might be of alien origin, just rather improbable. Yeah, I wouldn't doubt that anything advanced enough to travel interstellar distances would be able to make itself go unseen if they wanted to (we're not that far off that kind of technology ourselves), but on the other hand, if they don't see the point in making contact, and would only have the occasional research visit here, it wouldn't exactly be any more obvious than at the moment.
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