pretty obvious. can you hand of dust a Stank?

This question spawned a huge discussion on TWF, basically it's not clear by the rules so a dice off would be recommended until it's officially clarified.

The point is whether the attack made by the character counts as magical or not.

Sorry, but how does a hand of dust attack not count as being magical?? It reduces the character's attacks into a single attack, that has the killing blow ability (which is magical in itself) except it works on models that are larger than man sized as well.

I really don't see how that could not count for anything but being a magical attack...

My thinking on the issue is the following: you cast the spell on the character and the spell grants the character a special kind of attack. If this attack hits and is not warded then the target dies. Therefore, since the character is the target of the spell the tank cannot invoke its "immune to magic without a S value" ability. If you cast a spell that grants KB to anything on a character would the stank be immune to that? Is the stank immune to the effect of the Flaming Sword of Rhuin? The spell doesn't have a S value ... just an S bonus. It allows the user to hit on a 2+ ... is the stank immune to that as well (granted it is auto-hit)?

What is the TWF forum?

The whiners forum ... oops ... warhammer I mean.

Dear Folks

Forgive my ignorance but I wasn't aware that "the hand of dust" worked on war machines? Am I wrong?

Edmund

It should do. They have wounds, and it doesn't say it doesn't. It should work on them anyway. Big grip that turns you into dust and ash. Should work on anything.

World's nastiest handshake.

A quote from the spell description for Hand of Dust..

this works exactly like a Killing Blow attack with the only difference being that it can affect models of any size...

Stank reduced to dust I'm afraid... along with any other models of any size that gets in the way of the hand of dust, regardless of how many wounds it has.. only thing that can be used to save the model is rolling a successful ward save..

Indeed, the tank is only protected from spells without a strength value that damage it, but in this case the spell is not what damafges the tank, it is the character that does it, so bye-bye mister steam tank.

How do you mean that the Killing Blow is magical by itself?

ST is protected from the magic that doesn't have S value.
Well, Hand of Dust actually has a S value - it is of the same Strenght the caster has. (S 3 for Necromancers, S 5 for all Vampires and S 6 for Strigoi with Iron Sinews).

The fact that that Strenght value doesn't kick in is completely different thing.

I have heard some argument about S value of the caster that the Caster of the HoD has no strenght. That is wrong. If the caster has no strenght, his strenght would be 0 and if either Strenght, Toughness or Wounds are ever reduced to 0 - the character/model dies.

So - if the character casts HoD - he should die?! Riiight. :rolleyes:

I hate to disagree with so many of my esteemed Lords of the Night, but having read over both the Steam tank rules and those for Hand of Dust, the Stank is unfortunately immune.

It states very specifically under the Steam tank that it can only be damaged by spells that possess a Strength value in their description (basically magic missles and other such direct damage spells). All other effects are ignored.

The effect of Hand of Dust is that the caster is reduced to 1 attack (regardless of his Attack stat or any other factors) which will kill outright anything it hits that fails a wardsave. No mention of a Strength value is mentioned.

However, as the Hand of Dust does not possess an intrinsic strength value ( admittedly the caster does, but that is immaterial as it isn't a factor of the spell) the killing blow effect is ignored. You could still get lucky and have your necro wound the Stank with his strength (no likely considering it's T6 AS 1+....) but again, that isn't a factor of the spell itself, and thus not worth wasting your power dice on.

Fluffwise does it make sense? Not really I suppose, but then it doesn't make any sense why it can't be aged with Curse of the Years (which an effect a target unit of infinate size), or sucked deep into a Pit of Shades (the darned thing fails Initative tests automatically for crying out loud!), or why the crew should be protected from the mind altering effects of Slannesh Magic (so they're in a big metal can... so what?) or probabily any of a bunch of others.

Admittedly I can see the frustration of trying to deal with these metal monsterousities, as they really have no place in a "fantasy" wargame (keep your bedamned tanks in 40K you GW Bastards!), but you still have to follow the rules that they have. After all, a game without rules isn't a game at all..... it's politics! :P

If I ever come across a regular opponent who insits on bringing on of these things, I'm just going to draft a Giant of 2 into my list and hope I manage to roll "Thump with Club" when I charge it...... Hmmmmm...... 2d6 automatic wounds with no AS...... nice.......

Zombie, how is the effect of the hand of dust any different then the flaming sword of rhuin or bears anger? Both of those spells affect the caster ... just as hand of dust does. Both of those spells change the casters stats ... just as hand of dust does. Both of those spells give the character a special effect ... just as hand of dust does. So are you saying that if a character casts flaming sword of rhuin or bears anger on himself that the spells effects have no effect on the steam tank?!? So the neither will actually modify the character's attacks and/or strength?

Well let's see.....

The casting of Bear's Anger ONLY effects the caster(or other desigated target that recieves the buff insead). It's a simple buf spell raising the model's S, A, and T. It's special effect actually in no way targets the Stank (though it will no doubt have an impact on the combat, as would a Tzeentchian champion casting Orange fire to be able to re-roll wounding the cursed thing) so would be effective.

With Hand of Dust, the spell effects both the caster (reducing him to a single attack) as well as an enemy target (withering to death whatever he should manage to hit).

The Sword of Rhuin is a bit more tricky. Technically by the wrighting of the spell, the Stank is immune to it, as it's the sword itself that deals all of the damage, not the caster. As the sword has no S value listed in it's description, the Stank is immune to it's effects (the caster's attacks and S due go up, the Stank is simply immune to his weapon).
Admittedly this is following the letter of the rules rather than their spirit, as GW obviously wanted the Stank to be damaged by spells, just not auto destroyed or crippled (much like how the 6th Ed trial rules for Stanks allowed the Strength related effects of spells to effect the Stank but ignored all other effects, such as slowing movement or effecting shooting that some magic missles and other direct damanging spells could do as side effects.... such as chill wind, pit of shades, and the dwarven rune of earth.....).

Edit: actually, upon further thought, the SoR does have a listed S value (caster +3) so I suppose that it would work.

The steam tank is not immune to hand of dust because the tank is not the target of the spell, period, the end. The caster is the direct target of the spell thus the steam tank's immunity means nothing because it is not getting targeted by magic its getting targeted by an attack that has a strength value, but because of the effects of the spell on your character, and not the steam tank, the strength value does not matter because you kill the target as long as you hit it and it fails or doesn't have a ward save. Steam tank gets poofed by the HoD just like anything else.

I think that the Steam Tank would be affected by the Hand of Dust spell. Otherwise the Pit of Shades spell wouldn't work on it either. And everyone knows that this spell does indeed work on the Steam Tank. It gets a 4+ partial hit roll. If it fails its roll it falls into the pit gone forever.

On a side note. With my Beastmen army I've killed 3 Treeman now using the Pit of Shades spell. I'm working on getting an Anvil of Doom to that list :) .

Zombie, did you ignore the other posts? Or are you just reading what you want? And your argument about bears anger and sword of rhuin is bad since you relly on fluff and not what is written in the book. "Technically the sword does the damage" ... gimme a break. All 3 spells are cast on the caster ... not the tank. The tank does not have a radius of immunity to magic. The spells grant the target a special bonus and/or ability of one form or another ... that is the spells effect. For HD the spell's effect is that the recipient has the ability to instantly destroy anything hit by the recipient (just like KB that can affect any size target). The tank is not directly affected by the spell ... the spell's recipient is ... the tank is the unfortunate target of the recipient's new ability granted by the spell.


Gah! This is like the debate I had a long time ago as to why newly raised skelly crossbowmen could shoot the same turn they were raised.

@ Lord Cypress: Actually, a Stank IS immune to Pit of Shades, as it doesn't possess a strength value in it's descirption.

*rolls eyes* Of COARSE the tank isn't directly effected by the spell.....

Why we all know that necros have the innate ability to wither anything that they touch. Simply because the tank isn't the initial target of the spell doesn't mean that it isn't effected by it (it just means that unit's with MAGIC RESISTANCE don't gain the benefit from it, much like with Skaven Plague or Orc Warpath). The withering(killing blow) is the result of the spell effect, not the wizard himself.

And yes, I've read the other posts, and the rules in question. If might not be a bad idea if you did as well.

Agreed, the spell is cast upon the caster, but you just might, maybe, possibly want to think about reading the EFFECT of the spell before you start shooting your keyboard off.

"A magical flaming blade materialises in the Wizard’s grasp. This counts as a magic weapon. The Wizard gains .....(removed to protect copyright).... whilst using the Sword of Rhuin."

So yes, the SWORD does deal all the damage. With Bear's anger, the damage is caused by the caster's bare hands. (note: I've added an Edit in the original SoR post for those interested and literate enough go read it if you want).

Hand of Dust is basically the same, it creates a magical effect that the wizard uses in combat. As it has no listed Strength value in it's description, the Stank is immune to it.

Well, you can lead a horse to water ... but you can't make it drink. No sense in arguing the obvious anymore.

"Eddie the not so happy zombie" he he he he he !!!!!!!!!!!!! :P

*sighs* I quite agree Ads..... after all, you can show a gamer a rulebook, but you can't make him read.

And given my current surroundings, I'd probabily better change my name to "Eddie the Literate Zombie". :P

Zombie, here's a link to the UK GT heat FAQ: http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/warhamme..._rules_v1.8.pdf .

Huh, will you look at that. They say the Hand of Dust does work on a Steam Tank ... for the same reasons I gave above. How can that be? It doesn't agree with you Zombie so it must be wrong. Continue to believe what you want but I and it appears many others, at the very least, agree on this issue.

:blink: ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well being as though he is one of the world's only Zombies to somehow retain brain function after being dead and then being raised to still be literate, I'm sure he will have no problems reading the FAQ that ads so helpfully supplied :P

Was also interested to see that they covered off the whole debate about whether a unit that fails their fear test, but outnumbers the fear causing enemy, can still stand and shoot as normal. I remember this being debated on here for quite awhile, so nice to get some sort of semi-official clarification on it. Being one of the one's that wouldn't have allowed it in the past, I stand corrected and will remember in future games that it is allowed. Also nice to see the clarification about the Banshee howling into engaged combats, though that was never debated against in any games I have had.

So the Stank is indeed turned to dust, as I stated awhile ago. It just makes sense with how the spell works.

@ Ads: I'm perfectly content with being proved wrong (in fact I'd like to be as I stated before, the more things that can skill a Steam Tank, the better I say). I appreciate a well thought out and backed up arguement.

What I DO object to is when I make a rational arguement and some rude online idiot takes it upon himself to basically call me a retard without bothering to even open his rulebook to check out the spells/rules being discussed. (not mentioning an names of coarse :P ). There is a world of difference between the words "target" and "affect". Lots of spells affect units that they don't target when cast.

So some people agree with your arguement (yippee.... would you like a cookie? :P ). I could tell that just by flipping through this topic. Alot of people online also agree with me, or this forum and others like it wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. Sure my opinion may be unpopular around here (this IS a vampire forum after all), but that's no reason to be a jack@$$ about it. My arguement makes just as much logical sense as yours (and I at least made the effort to back mine up).

Go ahead and use this self admitted GT "house rule" if you want, just make sure you use it consistantly (not affecting ethereals and not negating daemonic/forest spirit wardsaves).

I'll wait for an official GW FAQ or Errata before I can in good concience go about destroying a tank immune to magic with a spell. ^_^

NEways, that's enough time wasted on this. Peace Out.

That's really funny because I could say the exact same thing about you. And I think the innuendo is clear.

Was I really? Or did you just have a bad day and decided to read more into something than was there?

And I didn't back mine up? Please.

To be fair, GW's GT rules pack aren't the same as an official GW Q&A, which actually is pointed out in the beginning of the pdf.
It's merely how Andy Joyce decided certain issues should be worked out at GW GT's. So things might indeed change when the soon mythical Q&A is shipped.

I wont say I told you so ^_^

But Andy's clarification of what constitutes a missile awakes as many questions as it solves. For instance, there is no clarification of the term 'fired'.

So Andy, is a Banshee special attack 'fired'? If so, enemy units can protect themselves with ward saves that work against missiles.
It would be better if they determined what counts as a shooting attack, for instance the Anvil of Doom.

In regards to the Banshee Howl, the description for it only states that armour saves are not allowed, so I have always thought that ward saves against it is perfectly acceptible. It also states in the description that the howl is distributed just as missile fire is.

For me, the important clarification was in regards to the changes in 7th ed that saw it being stated that once in combat, units did not have to take further pysch tests, such as they did in 6th ed if they got flank or rear charged whilst in combat etc. People started to use that to say that it meant that the Banshee Howl no longer would have an effect on a unit engaged in combat, as it was a pysch test. But Andy's clarification states what many of us VC players have argued. The unit engaged in combat is not immune to pysch, so they are still affected by the Howl.

I've always considered the banshee howl a special attack which occurs in the shooting phase. It's not a missile attack as it can be used while in hth and can be used against models in close combat. Ergo, wards vs missiles don't work against it. There is a really old rules thread discussion on that one somewhere. But that is off topic.

For those who are interested the draft Direwolf FAQ on the empire. From reading this

http://www.geocities.com/mi_whplayers/7th_...q_mdraft_v1.txt

Hand of Dust works against the Stank . . . Pit of Shades does not. Interesting.

Makes sense for me.

Where did you find that? I could only see the Pit of Shades ruling.

Its implied from the Bret ruling on killing blow affecting the Stank. Since Hand of Dust works the same as this, as mentioned in the spell discription, I see no reason why it would not work.

Well enjoy this one while it lasts, I've heard from a good source that Hand of Dust will no longer exist as a spell with the release of the new Vampire Counts book.

The Bret large killing blow hasn't been able to convince anyone in the no-Dusting-STank camp before, and I don't expect them to be swayed by this.

Hand of Dust gone, no surprises here as it was almost never used.

Let's bring an end to this "endless" topic that has been over the net for ages:

(Q and A from the UK GT)

Actually what ended the debate on this is the fact that Hand of Dust is gone as we know it in the new army book.. I believe a version of it exists still, but it's changed, so it's all moot.

Typical, after eons of debate we finally get the ruling our way, only for it to be rended obsolete! :lol: