Title: My First *test* Battle 2k
Meatymcniblits - March 26, 2008 04:30 PM (GMT)
I tried out my army list last Monday and here were the results:
I played against Dwarfs, but because it was going to be my first battle using the new VC, my opponent decided that he was going to experiment with his list. He had:
The White Dwarf: Armor of Glimril (1+ armor save and 4+ rune), Rune Axe of Grimnar (2+ strength, re-roll failed hits and wounds, opponent re-rolls successful armor saves), Rune Cloak of Valaya (Magic resistance 3+), Rune helm of Zhufbar (Any fleeing dwarves within 12 inches rally automatically)
Thane: Rune of Gromril, Rune of Fortitude (1+ armor save 1+ wound)
Thane: Runic 2x Rune of Striking (2+ weapon skill), Rune of Fortitude, Rune of Stone (1+ wound, 1+ armor save)
15 IronBreakers: Rune of Stoicism: (Double unit strength)
15 IronBreakers: Rune of Courage: (Immune to Fear and Terror)
15 IronBreakers: Rune of Battle: (1+ combat res)
Now, I’ve never heard of The White Dwarf, so I don’t know if he’s legal or not, or if it’s considered polite to first ask an opponent if you can use a character… but whatever. It says he’s unbreakable, but that doesn’t transfer over to the unit he’s in, something my opponent failed to tell me. He shoved a thane and his general into one unit of Ironbreakers, and another thane into another unit of Ironbreakers.
My list was (I’m pretty sure):
1 Vampire Lord
General; Magic Level 3; Necromancy
The Master: Summon Ghouls
The Arkayne: Dark Acolyte
The Arkayne: Master of the Black Arts
Sword of Might
Walach's Bloody Hauberk
(He goes in with a unit of Ghouls and casts IoN on both his unit and a supporting unit on the side. Huge unit of ghouls = fun time.)
Magic Level 1; Lance; Heavy armour; Shield
The Martialle: Dread Knight
The Bestialle: Infinite Hatred
Battle Standard Bearer; Magic Level 1
The Arkayne: Dark Acolyte
The Master: Summon Ghouls
(With another set of Ghouls, opposite side of the BK, start our summoning more ghouls)
Magic Level 1; Necromancy; Knows 2 Necro Spells
(Not really sure... I'm thinking Vanhel's where ever needed.)
8 Black Knights
Barding; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Hell Knight
13 Crypt Ghouls
13 Crypt Ghouls
14 Crypt Ghouls
2 Cairn Wraiths
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves
3 Fell Bats
Casting Pool: 12
Dispel Pool: 7
Models in Army: 75
Total Army Cost: 2000
Well… it was an interesting game to say the least. The first couple of moves had him so scared of my magic that he only used his dispel dice on my last couple of spells. I just kept raising more and more ghouls until I had a unit of 33 ghouls. He tried to pick them off with his Thunderers, but for everyone one he shot, 2 more popped up.
He tried an iron wall tactic: not moving and waiting for me. When I finally did charge I took out a unit of thunderers, (who fled off the board the next turn) with my 30+ ghouls and Vamp and then pursued into a fresh unit of Ironbreakers, who were quickly defeated and fled off the board.
My bats were able to distract a unit of Thunderers long enough for Varghulf to attack, which caused them to flee off the board. On the same turn I summoned some zombies into the flank of the last unit of Thunderers, who were chased down by my wraiths when they fled.
One unit of Ironbreakers didn’t move at all… I don’t know why.
The unit with his general was charged by both my ghoul unit (without a vampire) and my BK, from the flank. Unfortunately he had an Oath Stone he set down, so no flanks.
The game ended long before that combat could be worked out, but he challenged and I accepted with my BK champion, hoping to score with a killing blow… but I only managed one would on him before he cut him down. I’m positive I would have won the battle in time because Varghulf was on his way over and I was killing 3-4 of his men for every 2 he killed of mine. The unit would have fled from the General if my opponent would have explained to me that just his General was unbreakable, not his whole unit.
Anyway… couple of things:
I felt like I had waaaaay too much magic and was casting raise ghouls every turn because I just didn’t know what else to do. Maybe it’s because my opponent only had 4 dispell dice to my 12 power dice.
The Banshee didn’t do a damned thing. Killed one Thunderer, and then failed to hit anything when in combat. Never take a banshee when you’re up against ld 9, it’s just not worth it.
Ghouls are the best, they’ll slowly whittle away at the enemy and armor doesn’t matter.
Varghulf: I don’t understand how you could have an army without one of these guys.
Necromancer: Sure, they look crappy, and they kind of are. But because you can choose which spells you take, you should always have one for that *oh so happy* Vanhel’s into the flank. I’m always taking at least one.
I’m questioning whether to keep the wraiths. Maybe I’ll get rid of a unit of dogs and the wraiths in exchange for… another varghulf or maybe just drop the banshee and a unit of dogs to up the number of wraiths…
This Sat I'm going up against a combo of Dwarfs and High Elves. Suggestions would be very much appreciated, as I have never played against High Elves.
duck83 - March 26, 2008 06:12 PM (GMT)
I'll fight High Elves on Friday -> 2k game. Last time I've been fighting the same gamer (1450 p.) I've lost by about 400 points, however my army was set on an old Vampire Counts list.
This time, although we have both decided to play rather "fun" game I picked some "special tricks" that can make my opponent little suprised.
And so these are going to be: Nightshroud (l. armour) on my Vampire Lord, plus Cursed Bood and the Gem of Blood (and one dispel scroll), which I will keep my general safe, because of lost of Always strike first rule (Nightshroud), one use weapon skill equal 1 for the attackers (Cursed Book) and one use (a little bit risky) wound rebound (the Gem of Blood). Lord's Vampiric Powers are: Dark Acolyte (+1 magic lvl.), Raise dead (raising skeletons above their starting size plus +1 to cast Invocation of Nehek on skeleton units) and Avatar of Death which is supposed to give me so needed shield and hand weapon (means I'll have a 4+ save while fighting to the front).
I'm also going to field a Dread Knight Vampire with Enchanted Shield and Book of Arkhan, plus Dark Acolyte ability from Vampiric Powers.
Third Hero choice is Wight Lord riding (unbarded) skeletal steed, armed with Sword of Kings.
Fourth one is Necromancer with one spell (Danse Macabre) and Dispel Scroll.
My Core units choice are 23 skeletons with champion, musician and standard bearer (Banner of the Dead Legion) armed with spears. This unit is deployed in 4 ranks with 6 models in each. The unit will be led by my Vampire Lord. The choice of spears is made because of an idea to challange any unit Sword Masters or White Lions my enemy should have. Especially teh White Lions will easy target because of their 1 Attack per model value, which means I might have a chance to score some wounds with me double ranks fighting skeletons. If not the me general might have a chance to show what she's up to.
Second Core unit is made of another 19 skeletons, armed with hand weapons. Their task is to keep on of the flanks safe for as long as possible while being also the bodyguard for the necromancer (last time i threw them into combat with Sword masters, they were hacked down in two turns, so the only way they can have some fighting will be making a flank attack, and only in "certain" situation).
Third Core unit is a pack of 10 ghouls. I'm not counting on the too much, however if there will be any kind of chance, they might be usefull, by the same way as the second skelton unit.
Special choices are:
9 barded Black Knights with Screaming Banner (which occured to be very helpful against some not welcomed chariot charges last time) and Hell Knight. This unit will be led by my second Vampire, which I hope can use his Book of Arkhan in the right time and cause my Knights to attack before the Elves will.
Another Special choice is 5 strong Black Knight unit. Those Knights are unbarded and are led by Hell Knight, musican and standard bearer (which carries a a Hellish Vigour Banner for moments when I'll be forced to move futrher away from my Vampires). This unit will be led by Wight King, which I think is rather "fun" choice for this battle, as I don't expect him to do some serous damage anyway.
Here I have 10 Dogs of War Crossbowmen with musician. I take them just to make some counter-fire, which I suppose won't be too devastating, but I like the concept of having mercenaries in von Carstein army (host).
Last unit consists of 2 Cairn Wraiths and Tomb Banshee. Their task will be hunting any kind of flying enemy units(Great Eagles) or some terror causing diversion.
As for comment for your post, or rather suggestion I'll say that against High Elves all things that could neutralise theits Always Strike First rule (like the Nightshroud armour) or make your units have that rule (like Danse Macabre spell, which in comparison to enemy's great weapon armed units makes yours striking first).
Another thing is (however I'm not sure of it for the upcoming game on 2k) that High Elves are usually less numerous than armies of Vampire Counts, which in fact can field many cheap units, that will be easily reduced by Elve's Specialunits, but with some luck and good magic abilities could be raised back and hold for as long as it is necesarry to make your strong knight's units charge Elfs' flank.
The third think of which I know is that you should take some strong magic defence. I mean that some Dispel Scrolls would be handfull, and if you're not preparing for "friendly dice rolling game" then you should take as many vampires as you can (wit one necromancer with additional scroll ... as a humbe servant of his maseters).
Another thing is that Elves arn't too good armoured, except for their Cavalry you can easily kill few (if you strike first). They also have low Toughness value, which means it is really easy to hurt them (even your skeletons have some chances, that is why I'm trying those spears on one unit, to multiply the atacks).
I hope to type some more tested advices after my Friday's game.
Last, sorry for my english.
Duke Malbec of Moussillon - March 27, 2008 12:05 AM (GMT)
Right i'm gonna try to condense down duck83's list for simplicity and comment later
vampire lord: Nightshroud, Cursed book, Gem of blood, Dispel Scroll, Dark Acolyte, Raise Dead, Avatar of death
Vampire, Dread Knight, Enchanted shield, Book of Arkhan, Dark Acolyte
Wight Lord, Skeletal Steed, Sword of kings
Necromancer, dispel scroll
23 skeletons, spears, full command, banner of the dead legion
9 Black Knights, barding, banner, screaming banner, hell knight
5 Black Knights, hell knight
10 Crossbowmen, musician
3 wraiths, banshee
enTHRALLed - March 28, 2008 07:47 PM (GMT)
Crossbowmen? How? Where? Is this a mix of the SoC vamp list and the new one?
duck83 - March 28, 2008 09:04 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (enTHRALLed @ Mar 28 2008, 07:47 PM)|
|Crossbowmen? How? Where? Is this a mix of the SoC vamp list and the new one?|
Well, not really ... those 10 xbowmen are the Dogs of War unit and although there's nowhere marked in the new VC armybook about the option to take/field the Dogs of War units (as Rare choices), it is mentioned in the official Dogs of War armybook released in White Dwarf no. 251
Anyway, there's one mistake in this roster, however only on the paper. My (common) Vampire does not have the Dark Acolyte Vampire Power because, he has the Dread Knight ability, which point cost value is equal tp 25 points, while Dark Acolyte's 30 and there is no way those both could be used on one (common) vampire :)
Rest is fine, about todays game:
I've lost the battle, my main spear-armed skeleton unit didn't have much chances after my Vampire Lady (the general, in the earlier post mentioned as Vampire Lord) was strucked by two killing blow hits from High Elf Prince in the challange that has occured on the middle of the table board (I mean we've met with about 3 regiments on each side almost exactly in the middle of the field).
First Killing blow was rebound by my Gem of Blood, but second strike simply turned my general in to the dust. I didn't want to speculate about the thing that if the killing blow was rebound by the Gem of Blood, then it could cause the killing blow on enemy's High Elf Prince (and it would make both generals die immediately, which would be imho a litlle bit stupid).
After that, my army started to crumble and I've only destroyed all of his 3 bolt throwers, 1 mage (which has miscased once and losed a wound), 5 white lions and 5 sword masters (those both were independent flank holding units) and a 5 strong unit of phoenx guards.
In my amry survived Wight King and 7 crossbowmen (which had stand & shoot at the charging unit of spear leves, panicked them and thus survived). All the rest was vanquished.
All in all it was a great fun to play with new armylist. Skeletons are now better because of their light armours and Wight King leading the cavalry is a death incarnate (almost).
About any sugestions ... even after this battle I still can not tell any, execept those tactic concepts I've mentioned in my first post and which worked rather well. Hope it have helped in at least slightest way, good luck on your struggles.
Preacher - March 28, 2008 11:37 PM (GMT)
The Gem will rebound the first wound you take, in the event that this is a killing blow it bounces one wound back to your opponent and the KB is ignored.
That dwarf list is very poor to take on a magic heavy undead army. No wonder it was a walk over.
darknesseternal - March 29, 2008 05:02 AM (GMT)
Good luck duck with finding opponents that will let you field that dogs of war crossbowmen unit in your VC list.. I mean, dogs of war are no longer an option in our latest armybook, and that trumps anything listed in a white dwarf from 70 odd issues ago.. You would certainly need to get opponent's permission, and well, good luck with that. ;)
duck83 - March 29, 2008 09:59 AM (GMT)
Well, maybe it sounds odd, but due to Polish Tournament Rules Clarifications I can field the Dogs of War units, listed in that White Dwarf (no. 251) as Rare Choice. After a while of thinking about it, it seems that it really may look odd to you guys, however I'm not fielding those xbowmen on any kind of Grand Tournaments, so they only have a free slot in my army while playing those special kind of fun games. Another think is that those Polish Rules Clarifications migh sound a little bit strange, but it works the same was as the publsihed FAQ, here on the BLood Keep Forum, with this exception that it is strongly definied for Polish Warhammer League and Tournaments being part of it. I'm not a player battling in this kind of Tournaments (usually), but I've found the part about these Dogs of War units a few days ago and I have thought, that I could try to filed a unit. This is all, I am aware that such a "pesky" tricks need a permission of an opponent and if you guys are really scarred to face such an illegal army list on any international Tournament, then I can only say that it will not happen (unless you'll come to Poland ;) - such an outlaw contry).
Ben5 - March 29, 2008 12:05 PM (GMT)
No thats not true army books always overall other publication even the warhammer rule book and that is how some armies can have certain changes that wouldnt be allowed in the normal rule book e.g. in the warhammer rule book you have to take 2 core choices but in the high elf army book this rule is overruled so that the only have to take one core choice in a 1000 points
duck83 - March 29, 2008 02:02 PM (GMT)
But thinking this way, in about 4-5 years no army would be able to field Dogs of War, because of all 7th edition army books none can use them (I mean none have this option included in the Rare choice section).
This surely is can be true, because of some rumours saying that Dogs of War are an army that is going to extinct. For me this is another reason to use them in any way possible. Sorry if I have made some kind of "mess", but it is my opinion and in fact it does not frightend, that it will remain so.
Ben5 - March 29, 2008 03:38 PM (GMT)
Yes but i think this will be the case. Unless they could be getting there own army book but im not sure.
Instead of really on DoW why don't you just try and find something in the undead army that is more likely to fight with the dead. also it is more enjoyable to find other ways of covering your weaknesses the just taking the easy way out
duck83 - March 29, 2008 05:24 PM (GMT)
Well, I really don't think I've taken an easy way ... I've picked those xbowmen because my opponent is fielding the High Elf army which consists mainly of 4 and 5 edition models ... and here I have two solutions.
First one, if in any way it is hard to explain how those two armies High Elves and Vampire Counts (we are talking here about Vampire army of Sylvania, not some kind of a Necromancer's hord or any kind of "typical" undead) were able to meet on neutral ground, then you can simply abondon the stereotypes and look at it through the perspective of "one-event battle" where the main idea is to game and try to use Warhammer fabulary concepts as the background. In this situation my xbows can have some background explanation while models representing them were 5th edition metal Dark Elves (from the Marauder). This way of thinking has some elements of being right only when you are not strictly sticking to the present Old World timeline, because as I said it was just a lonely battle, not some kind of warhammer campaign. And returning to the mentioned Vampire Counts army with the addition of Dark Elf Crossbowmen unit you can easily (if you like) create some kind (of too many times metioned) background where the whole situation takes place even before the Vlad's take over of Sylvania. Those Vampires can be the refugees from Nehekhara ie. I knows this example sounds stupid but it is crated just for visualisation of my idea.
Second sollution is even easier (or dumber - which depands from the point of view). It just makes those Dark Elves a typical mercanary unit. For those currious enough to read all of this rubbish talk to this point I can say, that the musician in the xbow unit is not fielded because of the idea of making some flee reactions or whatever, but i have fielded them because I thought that such an (all in all outlaw) mercanary group wouldn't have hold their nerves long in the company of the undead if they havn't got (at least) a musician to entertain them while they're encamped (well, I know that this thought might sound extraordinary stupid, but somehow I do like it). I think at last, that if you're not concerned to this idea at all, then it will be very hard for me to change your mind, but if you still hold the thought, that whole this "problem" is based on the idea of playing a fun game, then perhaps you could say, that somehow it does not look as stupid as it seems.
Oh, and last thing, how can I "cover" the weakness of my army with 10 crossbowmen while their ballistic skill is 3??? Don't you think there was an easy way out, which could be achieved by fielding (let's say) 10 dire wolves or another pack of ghouls (even fileding another 2 wraiths seems to be quite good idea)??? Just for your concern.
Meatymcniblits - March 30, 2008 04:15 PM (GMT)
Well I had a battle with high elves now. It was actually a combo army of Dwarves and High Elves vs Vampire Counts and Skaven. 2000 pts for each army. We won, but I was less than satisfied with my performance.
Although we effectively neutralized the enemy magic phase, because of the dwarves, ours magic phase was neutralized and I wasn't able to get off more than a few invocations.
Also, I definitely did not take into account how deadly the first strike rule was. My only worth during the game was holding one of our flanks while the Skaven shot everything to pieces.
I felt like I needed a lot stronger and faster units to deal with their SAD army.
So, question: The only characters of theirs that had magic weapons were the Anvil of Doom, a general riding a dragon, some cannon and one caster. Is this normal for them to have no magic weapons?
If so, how would a mostly ethereal army fair against high elves and dwarves?