Opinion Needed

April 11, 2005--

Time's up.

I have removed the story now and will be removing the bits and pieces of it from quotes down below, too, just because I'm strange like that and I really don't want any trouble with publishing.

Big thank you again for everyone who took the time to read this and leave a comment!!

I'll probably be bugging people individually to read different sections some time in the future. Or begging them to beta. So, unless you read my livejournal or IM me, you won't find out how it is going because I won't be putting anything up on TO again.

At least I might not.

Have to keep the window open you know...

-shorah

P.S. Yes, I did bump the thread, via being a moderator, mwahahaha!! But it was just so that people knew I removed it and knew the reason why their posts have been changed just a little.

~

April 4, 2005--

No, wait, don't run away!! I want your opinion!! *catches arm and drags back*

Yes, yes, I know I said I was going to work on Requiem but I just couldn’t bring myself to write something that depressing right now. And the others I still feel like are lacking something- thereby they were left alone till I get more inspiration.

Stop rolling your eyes. Just because I recruited everyone’s help before and then didn’t use it doesn’t mean anything. Well, alright, so maybe it does, if just showing that I might not be the best person to work under things like deadlines or pressure- real or imagined.

BUT I do have a point to this post. So you can pay attention now. Yeah, now would be good.

Since I couldn’t find it in me to work on the other stories I picked up a story that I hadn’t listed because I had decided to limit the poll. That’s what I’ve been working on and trying to get character outlines done and all those other lovely things that come before a book can be started.

What does this have to do with you? I’m getting to that.

I’ve got the Prologue done for this novel and I would like some feedback on it. I know, you are trying to pull that ‘I’m not qualified’ gig. You can read, right? You’re qualified.

Now, since that’s covered, here’s what I would like to know.


1) Were you interested while you read this?
2) Did the Prologue have any interesting, and plausible, views in your opinion?
3) Did you like the overall tone and feel?
4) Would you be curious in reading the rest of the novel?
5) Do you want to flame me now for posting such a thing? (JOKE!! Just a joke!)
6) Any other opinions, insights, or critiques you might like to share? And please don't give me that 'It was lovely, shorah. I would love to see more.' reply. That's worth just about nothing except to puff up my head.


Before anyone can bring up objections about this, especially after reading it, let me tell you what you should know. It is a philosophical piece so it’s going to have some conflicting views from what other’s hold. Also, I am pretty much going to have a balance for everything. So it isn’t going to be skewed to one point of view. Also, I am a Christian, so those of you I know are the same, don't go looking at me funny. There's a reason behind it starting like this.

Stop. Don’t go heading off and say you are going to do this later because after exactly one week- I’m taking it down. I’m removing the Prologue from here and leaving a nice little note in it’s place. This is because I seriously hope to sell this one day, when it’s through, and I can’t afford to get into any trouble about 1st publishing rights. Understand? Good.

Now...what is it you’re going to do for me? Thank you.

~

Prologue removed. You didn't think I would forget, did you?

~

P.S. Zahcar is my only made up name, thereby the only one without meaning and I've got all the others with a meaning to them, since they are real names, that are sometimes significant. I'm thinking of changing it. What do you think? Keep it? Ditch it?

This post has been edited by shorah on Apr 11 2005, 09:05 AM

0. Hey, don't worry. You write what you want to write.

1. Oh, yeah. I read that first line, nodded and smiled a bit, and said, "Yep. Hooked." A biblical allusion and a question-maker in one neat little line. You kept me hooked all the way through.

2. Also yes. Although I'm a devout Catholic, there's much in here I not only found interesting, but agreed with. Even if you do believe a God/Supreme being/whatever, you've got to admit that the rituals surrounding your religion, at least, are man-made. Maybe we don't quite create the gods (or maybe we do? I'm not qualified to say), but by choosing to believe in them it is humans who give them power. Just my two pence.

3. Yes, mostly. There were a few places where I was a bit...not quite in the flow, if that makes any sense, but I'm sure you can refine it. Let me find something here

First sentence "sounds" flippant to me, as does the last, but a little more emphasis might be good: "company", maybe, I wouldn't know? And you need commas a few places in the middle, which I'll get to later. I guess what I'm trying to suggest her is that you go through and get the speaker's voice really clear, so you can hear it in your ear. It's almost there--not quite.

4. Hopefully I've made it clear from previous answers that this one's a resounding YES.

5. omg u suck i hate u this is realy bad y ru messin up teh forum wit ur writting? Ow. I think I just died a little.

6. The good:The beginning and the ending of this are excellent. Your characters are well realized and the speaker voice is coming through (mostly) strong. You've intrigued me, given me background on your character and your world without being infodumpy, which is way important.
The bad: Just some nitpicks, because I'm way anal. You use hyphens (-) instead of dashes (--) *that formats nicely to a long dash on Word* Hyphens connect compound words, dashes function like colons, mostly. "though" needs punctuation before and after it. I'm not entirely sure, though; but I think it goes like that.

is awkward. Comma before and, but, or or in a compound sentence. Overall I think you could use a good sprinkling of commas, but that's fairly subjective.

seems a bit heavy-handed and redundant (note the irony of my redundant wording!) I think "two lives: day and night" should be sufficient. That extends to most of the next two paragraphs. The contrast's made almost too obvious--don't want the readers shouting, "We get it already!"

I think he does.

Awkward, and I think the next sentence could also be worded a bit more clearly and succinctly. The very last sentence of that paragraph before the end ("Survival...") seems a teeny bit melodramatic. Just a teeny bit.
The ugly: None. It's all very pretty. OMG RITE MOOOOOOOORE I LUV U!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Again, ow. Too many ff.net reviews have I read. But don't let your head get *too* puffy.

PS: Well, there's also a significance to being the only name with no significance. Do you want there to be? If yes, change away (though I doubt many would notice). I don't know your story or how important names are, but I think it's important to have a balance too.What I'm trying to say has been said much better so here's Barbara Kingsolver on names (it's long, sorry, and I cut it a bit too): "A name has to be just right: memorable, culturally appropriate, original but not silly. And ideally, it carries some meaning that coincides nicely with the person's intentions and character.

In the case of my children, I had to put something on the birth certificate long before I had a clue about intentions or character. (I named them both for flowering plants -- it seemed safe to assume they'd grow.) But in fiction, I have the advantage of naming people after their whole lives have passed before my eyes. Meaning must be subtle, of course. You can't go around calling all your domineering guys "Victor". But every name has shades to it, and sometimes I test a lot of them on the back of my tongue before finding the right one... This is how I usually arrive at names, through revision and study...

For main characters I avoid names that are too culturally loaded, like Adolph or Vanna. (Before I could write a single sentence, those two would be off on their own parade through your imagination.) For the same reason, on a more personal level, I try hard to steer clear of first and last names of family members, friends, and colleagues -- which rules out half the Name your Baby books right there. That may be one reason why I tend toward oddball names for my principals: Turtle, Halimeda, Loyd-with-one-L. Names like this also make a character more memorable, and you don't have to worry about them getting teased on the playground. You can just say it builds character. And unlike your children, they won't hold it against you." (from her website, here.

Hope I helped a bit. Pester me for more if you ever need it--I'm procrastinating plenty of stuff.

This post has been edited by shorah on Apr 11 2005, 08:18 AM

First thing--

I can't believe I missed that. And I checked it so many times! Fixed. Right. Away.

*headkeyboard*sienvhiyrewqbig4y8v




Re: 2. (I figured this one was worth making some comment about even before anyone else had made theirs, as I was planning to do. I don’t think I was quite clear enough in my post before.)

Now this I hadn't thought of. *writes it down* I was actually needing another argument, which I'll explain about in a minute, and this one is a very good point. Not exactly what I was going for in the first part, but it can easily be added in and sort of "made" that way and I don't think it will be forcing it.

Right, see here is where I feel I might be stepping on some toes. Christian toes. Really it is supposed to but, without knowing how the rest of the novel will go, it crunches them- and breaks a few bones. Basically, the novel is about one woman, the woman who's view is seen in this Prologue and the rest of the story since it is 1st person, and her spiritual journey and her beliefs- or non-beliefs- being challenged and molded. And, of course, she does get into some debates with people about their beliefs. (It'll be so much fun to write that and make it sound clear and reasonable...) So, maybe that's not what you were concerned about at all, just I wanted to be clear(er) with it for everyone.




Re: Grammar (Just because I'm an English major and dwell on these things, too. And smack myself over them too...)

I had no idea about that. I was never told such a thing before. I did know that Word formatted double hyphens into a longer line-- but didn't know that you were supposed to make it like that. *bows before a grammatical master*

I think it does most of the time, yet I believe it can be broken when...I don't want to say needed...wanted? And I'm bad about that rule.

Do I smell a potential beta?

Seriously, everyone here is already like my "Writing Group" they (the How-To-Write-Authors) say to join. So I'm more then willing to steal people's time with drivel pester innocents to death ask for beta readers here.

But, if you don't want to, feel free to say: "NO, shorah!! That would be like inviting the Black Plague into my house." And I will understand.

Just so you know, I'll make more comments about what you said a little later on, when I've had more time to think them over. But thank you for the quick reply!!

Re 2 again: You weren't toe-stepping me, I was just rambling. My own religious angle is not exactly cut and dry Catholic, and if I'd lived a few hundred years ago I'd probably have to keep my mouth shut or be burned at the stake. But I say your idea for this book sounds excellent, and don't be afraid to toe-step, because sometimes people start to think when they get mad. More often, they don't think at all. But hey.

I was also unenlightened on hyphens until last year, when my English teacher (a Grammar Master among masters) took me to task.

Like all rules, the one on "though" can be broken, if very carefully, and it doesn't apply to all thoughs. Though I thought you might want to consider it. See, there's one. (I'm really wierd tonight, sorry.)

I would love to beta.

I'm not qualified....

1) Were you interested while you read this?
Yes. It caught me from that first sentence, where I seriously thought: What....? SO, I kept reading. I also like some of the sentences put throughout, such as

These kept the inerest going.

2) Did the Prologue have any interesting, and plausible, views in your opinion?
Neighbor relationship is good. So is slave relationship....

3) Did you like the overall tone and feel?
Yeah. Goes with #1.

4) Would you be curious in reading the rest of the novel?
Sure. As long as I didn't have to read it... (Just joking....)

5) Do you want to flame me now for posting such a thing? (JOKE!! Just a joke!)
No, never, not in a million years. Well, actually.....

6) Any other opinions, insights, or critiques you might like to share? And please don't give me that 'It was lovely, shorah. I would love to see more.' reply. That's worth just about nothing except to puff up my head.

It was lovely, shorah. I would love to see more.
That and it was good.

Okay, seriously (it's late), it's from the point of view from an observer, and someone once told me that I kind of sit back and notice everything going on, which I do, some of the fine things, which is something that your story touches upon. Yeah, it definitely connects with me.


This post has been edited by shorah on Apr 11 2005, 08:19 AM

*huggles Grey and Erture for replying*

You guys have no idea how much this means to me.

Grey--

I’m glad that you liked it. I know that you’re not into religion, so having your opinion really means a lot to me.

Hey!! That’s not very nice.

Thank you. That’s really what I was trying to go for, so I’m glad I got my point across.

Erture--

Great!!! I will warn you, until I really get going, and have the time to do so, I’m an incredibly slow writer, so it might be some time before I actually get something to you. But I will remember you and get things out as soon as I ‘finish’ (to the point where a beta can see them ). I’ll probably send you a PM or something closer to the time when I’ve actually got something to see if you still want to, how to send it and any other information you might need to know-- or want to know.

I’ll fix the sentence that you mentioned. Though I think I should point out that some of the time where commas might be ‘lacking’ are because the character’s ‘voice’ doesn’t use a comma there. You know, it’s sort of like listening to a person-- some people use tons of commas and end on question marks. Other people use run-on sentences. And then still others are ‘normal’ in their speaking. It’s just sort of the way the female character talks that’s what ends up on paper...or computer screen.

Good point. I’m still not used to coming up with symbolism and making strong points like this, that are somewhat hidden also, so I tend to try and make sure the reader knows that I'm saying: “Hey!! Look at this. This is what I’m trying to tell you!!” I guess I’ll have to try and work on cutting back and trusting the reader to be intuitive enough.

The “Survival...” one is supposed to. She’s a pessimist. Hence she get’s a little negative and melodramatic at times.

That one about the “So we watch each other’s backs...” has been bugging me, too. I’m just not sure yet what to fix about it. I’ll get on it, though.

It’s possible that it’s a little too flippant. I’m not really sure what was going on there except I really did hear the character making light of that section. Could be because of the Tanak reference (which, btw, is the Jewish Bible. In case no one got that joke. )

I wasn’t sure about the “company” emphasis when I wrote it out, did think about it. But, thinking back over it and hearing another person say to add it, I will. It needs it. But I still have to think about the “I wouldn’t know.” one.

omg r u flamin me? cuase if u r im reproting u t teh staf (Okay, had way too much fun mocking them...)

About the Zahcar name. I think I am going to keep it. I’ll go with the mental theory, I might not ever get around to adding it in the actual book, that he changed his name to that. I like the point you brought up about having no meaning is also symbolic.

Very cool quote, too. I like the way that author thinks. I’ll have to check out her site.


Thanks again both of you!!

Well, I'm not really religious, but that doesn't mean that I don't have views on them. It's kind of like how I find different political systems interesting (in case you didn't know, which you didn't), throughout history, I have no problem with religion.l I mean, I am writing a whole thing about mythology.....

omg r u flamin me? cuase if u r im reproting u t teh staf (Okay, had way too much fun mocking them...)

*Your present commanding officer is having seizures and is unable to comment on this atrocity. Please wait until he recovers for him to freak out...*

Well, I'm glad you found a lot of help from us, and I'm sorry if you felt that we don't write the level of response that you'd like, I know I'll try to do better, I know what you mean but it is hard to keep writing original responses. Sorry.

*Freaking out*

*Your present commanding officer is having seizures and is unable to comment on this atrocity. Please wait until he recovers for him to freak out...*

Grey, you just made a really bad night turn out pretty good. Thank you for that.

No, no!! Any comment is better then no comment at all! I know it's hard to come up with original comments. Hey, you're talking to the queen of the "Oh! That was so pretty. Please write more." comment. I know it can just be really hard to word what you want to say, or are feeling.

So, honestly, you guys even trying to make some comments here helped me leaps and bounds.

Talk about not writing what I meant to say.

I know you have views on religion, I think everyone does, what I mean to say is that you don't practice a religion. (You don't, right? I thought you said once that you were an atheist. Sorry if I am wrong.) Anyway, getting the viewpoint of someone who doesn't follow the religion(s) of the other people who I have let read this is a good thing. That's all I meant.

And when are you going to update that mythology story, anyway? I have been reading it, even if I forgot to post the last time you put something up. *slaps hands*