Vns Message Board -> Neurofeedback for depression

Neurofeedback for depression, amongst other things!

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Bernard

Posted: Nov 28 2007, 08:58 AM

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QUOTE

... Cognitive disorders, such as attention-deficit disorder (ADD) or anxiety, show up as aberrant brain waves.

"By consciously reshaping the aberrant brain-wave pattern, the patient retrains her brain, thereby reducing symptoms while enhancing concentration," Bonesteel said. "Conscious control becomes unconscious control as a result of positively reinforced repetition. The brain learns to regulate itself."

Depending on the condition and its severity, neurofeedback treatment might take 20 to 40 or more one-hour sessions. But positive results seem to stick.

Dr. Elsa Baehr, director of NeurQuest Ltd. in Skokie, has treated people with neurofeedback therapy for 15 years. "We have data on patients 5 years, 10 years, 13 years after treatment," she said. "The condition is holding. They're not depressed. It's been a very effective treatment."

Dr. J. Peter Rosenfeld, professor of psychology at Northwestern University's Institute for Neuroscience, worked with Baehr to develop the original protocol for treating depression with neurofeedback. Despite what he calls "pretty impressive" clinical results, he insists that more control-group research is required.

...

Bonesteel agreed that it's not a panacea but noted that neurofeedback, used as part of a multifaceted treatment plan, improves a variety of specific cognitive impairments besides depression, ADD and ADHD. In his clinic, he helps people with insomnia, traumatic brain injury, post-traumatic stress, chronic fatigue, mild autism and epilepsy -- often without medication. Research indicates that neurofeedback produces some of the same brain-wave changes as drugs used to treat ADD and ADHD.

"You can chemically condition the brain with pills or do it with neurofeedback," Bonesteel said. "But neurofeedback trains more specifically than pills, without the side effects. It also changes the brain for the better in an ongoing way."

Aerobics for the brain

Bonnie	Posted: Nov 29 2007, 08:16 AM
Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 482 Member No.: 2,026 Joined: 18-November 07	Dear Bernard, I think this is excellent information. I have heard of Northwestern University. I think it should be used along with treatment. I do think though it could be dangerous, as people reading this on medicines, may try and get off their medicines. And say they will do this instead and say they don't need to take their medicines for their conditions. Other than that I think it would be great, if psychiatrists would use this ALONG with their antidepressants etc. The problem is, anything new is rejected by these shrinks. I also think alternative medicine could a great benefit to psychiatry in helping patients. That is also rejected by most doctors. These other treatments do help patients. I think alternative medicine (most of it) should be used along with all of Western Medicine. It would greatly benefit patients now. I myself have used it, and it has helped at times, when traditional medicine has not. I think this attitude is changing, but it is taking a lot of time. Doctors are so jealous and protective of anyone else coming into their territory, even if it would help their patients improve their emotional, spiritual, and physical health. It is sad that this attitude is out there so much. Sincerely, Bonnie :)

Bernard	Posted: Nov 29 2007, 02:40 PM
Johnny Neurofeedbackseed Group: Global Moderators Posts: 1,366 Member No.: 273 Joined: 24-March 05	Actually, most EEG neurofeedback practitioners at this point in time are psych doctors. From what I have seen, they are way ahead of medical doctors (neurologists) in studying/adopting neurofeedback as a treatment option for patients. EEG neurofeedback is not an instant gratification system. I don't think any docs are rushing their patients off primary care (meds) while starting neurofeedback. It certainly was not the case for Stacy (my wife). What the article was saying is that many patients who use neurofeedback are able to reduce or eliminate meds after the results are realized. There really is no downside to neurofeedback other than the cost.

labrat	Posted: Nov 29 2007, 04:48 PM
VNS for TRD saved my life! Group: Global Moderators Posts: 2,466 Member No.: 438 Joined: 9-February 06	Can neurofeedback make a persons memory come back?

Bernard	Posted: Nov 29 2007, 07:31 PM
Johnny Neurofeedbackseed Group: Global Moderators Posts: 1,366 Member No.: 273 Joined: 24-March 05	I think that is the wrong way to phrase the question, but yes, many people with impaired memory (TBI, epilepsy, etc.) have seen improvements in their memory recall after normalizing brain activity with neurofeedback. A bit of searching on neurofeedback studies (or reading some of the books on the subject) yield case studies where this is mentioned.

Bonnie	Posted: Nov 30 2007, 07:07 AM
Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 482 Member No.: 2,026 Joined: 18-November 07	I think it sounds great. I guess insurance companies will be slow to pay for this new treatment; just like VNS. As it is new. It sounds very promising. What I meant when I wrote is that some patients will take themselves off their medicines too soon and end up in trouble at times when reading things themselves. As long as they are under a doctors care when doing this neurofeedback, and changing/decreasing their medicines. There is a lot of dangerous stuff on the internet about weaning off antidepressants and using alternative medicine on your own without help from doctors. This is dangerous and unsafe. I myself tried this as I didn't want to take my medicine. The results were a disaster. I'm not saying this true about neurofeedback. As far as restoring memory, I read that all memories are stored in the brain, even if you cannot remember them, they are still there. Like stuff in the attic, you just can't see them. Some memories are precious, and to restore them to people would be a Godsend. There needs to be more treatments for depression besides the damned medications. I am glad to see this is another treatment on the horizon. Sincerely, Bonnie :Great!: :Great!: :Great!: :Great!:

Bernard

Posted: Jun 16 2008, 05:28 AM

Johnny Neurofeedbackseed
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Bumping for members who may think they have exhausted all options:

QUOTE

... Part of a brain map from two different people is reproduced below. The map on the left is from a person with a long history of depression. You can clearly see in the left frontal area (which is colored orange and yellow) that there is an excess of slow, alpha brainwave activity. This is the pattern that has been classically associated with a vulnerability to depression. In contrast, the brain map on the right displays how a relatively normal map would look, without any excess or serious deficit.

(Posted Image) (Posted Image)

It is interesting that research has found that antidepressants do not correct the type of brainwave pattern that we see above on the left. Thus, medication treatment for depression appears to still leave intact the biological predisposition for becoming more easily depressed when unpleasant life circumstances come along. There is also new evidence that has found that on average, antidepressant medications only have an 18% effect over and above placebo effects (Antonuccio, Danton, DeNelsky, Greenberg, & Gordon, 1999; Kirsch, Scoboria, & Moore, 2002; Kirsch & Sapirstein, 1998), and medication may only be mildly effective in treating anxiety as well (Antonuccio et al., 1999). In contrast, we know that psychotherapy for depression compares favorably with medication in short-term follow-ups (DeRubeis, Gelfand, Tang, & Simons, 1999) and appears to be superior in long-term follow-ups (Antonuccio, Danton, & DeNelsky, 1995; Hollon, Shelton, & Loosen, 1991).

Neurofeedback treatments for depression (Baehr, Rosenfeld, & Baehr 1997, 2001; Hammond, 2000, 2004) appear very promising not only in bringing relief from depression, but in modifying the underlying biological predisposition for becoming depressed. Neurofeedback focuses on retraining the brain, for example, reversing the frontal brainwave asymmetry, with the goal of producing an enduring change that does not require people to remain on medication indefinitely. Training often requires about 20 to 22 sessions.

Neurofeedback for Depression

oreo	Posted: Jun 16 2008, 06:23 AM
Seasoned Member Group: Moderators Posts: 535 Member No.: 2,617 Joined: 20-February 08	Hi Bernard, Thanks for bumping this topic. Although I've researched it nominally over the years...for one reason or another I didn't pursue it. It seemed as if I was either too anxious/depressed to do anything...or the occasional bouts of relative wellness left me thinking all would be well permanently. With the info coming up again now, in a time of semi-wellness...it might be the perfect time to do it...to get the training under my belt and be using a new tool to prevent or minimize anxiety/depression in the future. I'm being lazy here...can you recommend the best way to find a reputable doctor/program for any of us who may be moving forward on this? Thanks again! Anne

Bernard

Posted: Jun 16 2008, 07:16 AM

Johnny Neurofeedbackseed
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I wrote this before at CWE regarding finding a good neurofeedback practitioner:

QUOTE

If you do choose a new practitioner, you might ask them where they trained, what system (machine/software/database) they are using, what their experience is with epilepsy (depression in this case) patients and the treatment protocol they use, if they are BCIA certified or members of AAPB and/or ISNR.� You could also check the EEG Institute's directory of EEG neurofeedback providers or EEG Spectrum directory.

oreo	Posted: Jun 16 2008, 08:55 AM
Seasoned Member Group: Moderators Posts: 535 Member No.: 2,617 Joined: 20-February 08	Thanks so much! Anne

Dispatch

Posted: Aug 29 2008, 09:33 PM

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QUOTE (labrat @ Nov 29 2007, 07:48 PM)

Can neurofeedback make a persons memory come back?

I've been doing some research on Neurofeedback, and my understanding is yes it can help improve impaired memory. Bernard, I am thinking I am mixing up Biofeedback and Neurofeedback, or are they kinda the same? I know I need to do quite a bit more research on both.

Along with Neurofeeback, I have been looking into a program called "The Brain Fitness Program". I saw bits about the program on PBS, and it is supposed to help with memory and quite a few other things. The program is costly if you get it thru PBS because you have to make a donation to PBS and get the program as a gift. But I found it for $29.95 on the net. They doc I was listeneing to talked about healthy eating habits, environment, stressful situations, family history...all kinds of stuff. He was good. The way I understand this program, it is a CD ROM & you can install the program and learn how to make your brain fit. I inquired on their site about how this program could be beneficial with depression and epilepsy patients. I am waiting to hear back, then I'll post about it. The website is www.sharpbrains.com.

Dispatch B)

Bernard

Posted: Aug 30 2008, 02:13 PM

Johnny Neurofeedbackseed
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QUOTE (Dispatch)

Bernard, I am thinking I am mixing up Biofeedback and Neurofeedback, or are they kinda the same?

Neurofeedback is a specific form of biofeedback. It involves an apparatus to measure some biometric data and provide the subject with some feedback on the data. In classic biofeedback, heartrate/pulse or breathing are usually measured. In neurofeedback, EEG impulses are measured. The EEG impulses are monitored by a computer which analyzes the brain wave patterns within a couple of defined spectrums commonly called alpha, beta, theta, delta and gamma.

A neurofeedback system matches the subject's brain wave patterns against a known pattern that is considered normalized (a composite or average profile of brain wave patterns from numerous "healthy" individuals). The system then offers the subject feedback (audible tones, graphics on a computer screen, etc.) on how close his/her brain waves are to the normalized pattern. Using this feedback, the subject can learn to change their brainwave patterns towards the normalized pattern by learning how to manipulate the feedback signal (ie. learning how to make the tone sound pleasant or make the graphics on the screen do what he/she wants).

Thus, neurofeedback is ultimately a system that allows a subject to train their brain to work with a normalized brain wave pattern. When this happens, the subject is generally calmer, has better focus and greater clarity of thought. More importantly for people with epilepsy - it means less seizure activity.

Dispatch	Posted: Aug 31 2008, 08:25 AM
Riding Shotgun Group: Global Moderators Posts: 1,667 Member No.: 2,862 Joined: 25-March 08	:D :Thanx: Bernard. I appreciate the clarification. You are the man about Neurofeedback! Dispatch B) PS: The alpha, beta, gamma, theta, delta stuff is distracting...makes me thing of college frats & sorrities! HEEHEE! This post has been edited by Dispatch on Aug 31 2008, 08:31 AM

Bernard	Posted: Nov 12 2008, 06:53 AM
Johnny Neurofeedbackseed Group: Global Moderators Posts: 1,366 Member No.: 273 Joined: 24-March 05	More information: Research on EEG neurofeedback and depression

Bernard

Posted: Sep 1 2009, 08:48 AM

Johnny Neurofeedbackseed
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QUOTE

With a series of electrodes attached to his head, a Westchester volunteer proved thinking happy thoughts delivers results.

Rajan Desai stepped forward at a meeting Aug. 12 sponsored by the West Suburban Chamber of Commerce and Industry to be part of a demonstration on neurofeedback. The therapy helps patients alter their brain waves to overcome depression, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and many other issues.

Skokie therapists Corey Feinberg and Richard Goodman explained that the wires dangling from Desai's scalp and attached to a computer were designed to measure the 26-year-old mechanic's brain activity in two specific sites of the frontal lobe. The wires would not provide any electrical stimulation, but merely measure the brain's output.

After propping his feet on a chair, unclasping his hands and closing his eyes, Desai relaxed in a darkened room, even with dozens of pairs of eyes fixed on him. Soon, audience members saw two squiggly lines on a large screen showing activity on his brain's right and left sides in real time. As he opened his eyes and blinked, the lines jumped.

The hookup measuring Desai's brain activity revealed alpha waves are greater on his right side, as is the case with most people not suffering from depression.

Tinkling bell sounds began playing, and by relaxing, Desai could make the bells play more often. When told to think of a happy experience, Desai's right side alpha brain wave was more pronounced on the screen, and the bells played.

When told to think of something negative, the left side wave dipped and there was a buzzing sound instead of bells.

"The trick is to stabilize the new pattern of increased activity on the right side," Feinberg said. "It's entirely based on operant conditioning. Burning a new pathway in the brain needs to be repeated a multitude of times to stay.

"Patients may feel some immediate results that their depression is better, but it needs to be repeated. The brain is very much like a muscle you need to strengthen to build those new connections."
...
Oak Park psychologist Kathleen Abbot, who also spoke about her experiences using neurofeedback with patients, said some insurance carriers cover treatment, but patients should check with their benefits consultant.

Patients often choose neurofeedback, a type of biofeedback pioneered with cats in 1967, to avoid the side effects of antidepressants and other drugs or when other therapies haven't helped, Abbot said.

"The number of session required sometimes deters people, but generally those who call have done the research and are already interested," she said.

Abbot said she's encouraged about greater acceptance of the therapy now that the American Psychological Association requires candidates taking licensing exams to be familiar with neurofeedback as a valid way to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. ...

Patients may think their way through depression

The bit at the end (in bold) is news to me.

Birdbomb	Posted: Sep 1 2009, 06:34 PM
The Head Cheese Group: Admin Posts: 7,248 Member No.: 1 Joined: 18-February 04	The $1,000,000 question is "How do you get a ADHD kid to sit still long enough for neurofeeback?" : g :

Bernard	Posted: Sep 2 2009, 05:04 AM
Johnny Neurofeedbackseed Group: Global Moderators Posts: 1,366 Member No.: 273 Joined: 24-March 05	Many of the neurofeedback systems these days incorporate games or movies (think Disney/Pixar cartoons). The subject has to focus in order to keep the game/movie working.

oreo	Posted: Sep 6 2009, 09:44 AM
Seasoned Member Group: Moderators Posts: 535 Member No.: 2,617 Joined: 20-February 08	It's so good to see people using their brain to help their brain! I haven't used neurofeedback, but have known that is a direction I would go if the VNS stops working for me. I do find even simple meditation helps tremendously! Unfortunately with anxiety disorders...sometimes it's hard to settle in to meditation. (interesting how close the words meditation and medication are....) Oreo

Dispatch

Posted: Sep 8 2009, 11:35 PM

Riding Shotgun
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QUOTE (oreo @ Sep 6 2009, 11:44 AM)

(interesting how close the words meditation and medication are....)

:D Quite close isn't it?

B)

Petunia	Posted: Nov 10 2009, 12:29 PM
Seasoned Member Group: Moderators Posts: 813 Member No.: 13 Joined: 20-February 04	I keep forgetting to tell all you guys my exciting news! I found somebody to do Neurofeedback for me. I wasn't really looking really she just fell into my lap, I'm so excited! Not sure when I'm going to start, she wants me to go see my Neuro first.

Dispatch	Posted: Nov 10 2009, 04:58 PM
Riding Shotgun Group: Global Moderators Posts: 1,667 Member No.: 2,862 Joined: 25-March 08	:Great!: Petunia! I am so excited for you to have this opportunity! Please please do keep us updated on the process and how it works for you! HOW EXCITING!!! Take care! B)

labrat	Posted: Nov 11 2009, 11:34 AM
VNS for TRD saved my life! Group: Global Moderators Posts: 2,466 Member No.: 438 Joined: 9-February 06	Please keep us updated ! I'm so excited for you!

oreo	Posted: Nov 15 2009, 10:28 AM
Seasoned Member Group: Moderators Posts: 535 Member No.: 2,617 Joined: 20-February 08	: clap2 : Good luck! Can't wait to hear how it works for you!

Bernard	Posted: Nov 16 2009, 10:10 AM
Johnny Neurofeedbackseed Group: Global Moderators Posts: 1,366 Member No.: 273 Joined: 24-March 05	That's great Petunia. I'm wishing you all the best. :)

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