Title: All Good Things...
Description: Not the Star Trek TNG Episode...
the_one092001 - July 22, 2010 09:54 AM (GMT)
So I have no doubt some of you have heard of the recent publisher crackdown on scanlations on both sides of the lake. Manga Toshokan was hit a week ago and removed most Japanese series, leaving mainly manhwa and manhua left. OneManga was just hit today, agreeing to remove all manga series within the next week.
So then gents, it seems that the publishers mean business this time around, although I have no doubt that others will simply take up the mantle with sites based in places like Sweden such as NyaaTorrents, or in other data havens. But it seems that like how Napster fell to the RIAA, here's the fall of the first generation of manga sites.
kano - July 22, 2010 10:27 AM (GMT)
Not the first time - just the most obvious and active time so far.
Also well known due to the fact that it was clearly stated that a legal clamp down was gonna happen
(even as we've discussed already in the Negima! raw thread)
Raw Paradise going down was probably close to around the start of it this time.
MangaHelpers went a little while ago also - then they put up their replacement idea (yeah right ...)
I guess there's not much point getting into an IP flame war however :D
the_one092001 - July 22, 2010 11:15 AM (GMT)
The IP on the anime side is even more complicated now thanks to Crunchyroll, since evidently Crunchyroll has the licensing to simulcast Bleach subbed episodes as they're released in Japan, even though Viz Media still has the rights to the normal English adaptation. They did push DB out of the market, although I'm certain someone will takeover (haven't watched Bleach in months so I don't know much about it).
I question whether MangaHelpers' idea will really go far. Although it very well might end up like the next Crunchyroll if they can get enough support. The manga publishers' current business models are more outdated than the RIAA's, and they've been even less responsive to changing them.
shaoron - July 22, 2010 12:04 PM (GMT)
this is why we can't have nice things anymore...
monkey2k - July 22, 2010 12:18 PM (GMT)
Oh well. As these things go, someone will surely fill the gap.
The problem will be how long til then.
SagittaMagica - July 22, 2010 12:56 PM (GMT)
This may be the beginning, but it is definitely not the end...
Scanlators will still scanlate regardless of things like this, its just that the convenience of browsing manga series easily with browsing sites will be
replaced reverted back to downloading the releases from the Scanlator's IRC/[insert file host here]/torrents.
The world is back prior to the days of MangaVolume... ahh.. such a long time it was...
lanciferis14 - July 22, 2010 12:58 PM (GMT)
I knew it was just a matter time, but seriously though its not like this will end scanlations, they can't stop it. Although I'm a little sad OM will be gone next week, I've been reading mangas there since the time I can't remember anymore.
the_one092001 - July 22, 2010 02:51 PM (GMT)
|Scanlators will still scanlate regardless of things like this, its just that the convenience of browsing manga series easily with browsing sites will be replaced reverted back to downloading the releases from the Scanlator's IRC/[insert file host here]/torrents.|
I remember those days... back when Negima was the only scanlated manga I read and I checked the AQS webpage religiously to wait for the next release. When OneManga came around I remember absolutely refusing to use it since it made the whole thing so pedestrian, like how Oblivion made the Elder Scrolls series into just another medieval fantasy RPG.
But eventually the convenience did win me over; not because I could read Negima more easily (I still downloaded the chapters for a while since I archive them on my HDD, but I did stop doing that too), but because it let me read other series more easily. It was like being in a bookstore and picking whatever you wanted to read, except more comfortable because you didn't have to stand (now that Borders and Barnes & Noble have started cracking down on people who sit in their aisles) and could pick from a wider variety.
So that's the real loss. Not the ability to scanlate, but the ability to branch out to new series on a single archive site. OneManga was a great discovery tool without being creepy like Facebook's ad system.
Trowa - July 22, 2010 09:18 PM (GMT)
This really sucks.
It's where I get my manga fix damn it. Guess I'll have to go over to mangastream or mangafox. For however long those last anyway.
Though on the up side OM's forums will remain up and running. So I might be able to use their threads to get links and such.
BlueDo - July 22, 2010 10:35 PM (GMT)
Time to learn how to archive~
Like The_one said, online reading sites were very convenient and helped introduce me to other series.
Well, maybe now I can look at the Baka-updates Manga release page :eyebrow:
Not sure when/if Mangafox will get taken down.
It's from China.
kano - July 22, 2010 11:47 PM (GMT)
I guess the simple issue about it is that those sites were making money out of manga and they have no legal rights to that manga.
Also they were not even the people who scanlated it
I guess the publishing companies need to make sites that will - of course - make them more money in the long run - and run the sites themselves.
Basically any manga site at the moment is geared to making themselves money - nothing more and nothing less - and making that money without having any rights to their content ... and if the rumours about RP are true (though they probably aren't true) the manga sites may be making a LARGE amount of money out of it.
jdennis007 - July 22, 2010 11:54 PM (GMT)
so what's the good thing here?
We are talking about a site that took other peoples hard work (not any of their own) posted it at a crappy resolution and collected ad revenue from it. A site like theirs with thousands of hits a day would go for premium ad rates so they were making money hand over foot on other peoples hard work.
Now if they would only get rid of stoptazmo.
the_one092001 - July 22, 2010 11:56 PM (GMT)
The manga industry has been moving slower than anyone else in adapting to the coming of the internet. I saw that manga reader app that was released in Japan; all it had was a handful of old titles that cost more than a paperback version and was significantly more restrictive. I doubt they've undergone a major about-face on the issue or they would have accepted MangaHelpers' suggestion.
kano - July 23, 2010 12:05 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (the_one092001 @ Jul 22 2010, 06:56 PM)|
| ... or they would have accepted MangaHelpers' suggestion. |
Them accepting that is exactly the same as if Microsoft were to accept the suggestions of some software pirating company that has pirated copies of all of their software and made money out of it, about how to stop windows piracy :P
Of course they wouldn't take any notice of something like MH about how they should run their business
Edit: and should I add - Microsoft proves that forcing more people to pay for your product their way, rather than getting it for free some other way, will make you more money ...
jdennis007 - July 23, 2010 12:22 AM (GMT)
Bad example Kano, they are called "security consultants".
In all honesty the anime and manga industry move fast and adapt a lot easier than most other types of industries. What a lot of people dont realize is that they are corporations so they have to worry about shareholders and the value of their stock etc..
A lot of research has to be done first to determine if the venture can be profitable proposals have to be made and a lot of decisions have to be reached first.
shaoron - July 23, 2010 12:40 AM (GMT)
just went to onemanga
they say this is their last week.. :(
kano - July 23, 2010 12:51 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (jdennis007 @ Jul 22 2010, 07:22 PM)|
| Bad example Kano, they are called "security consultants".|
Not the same in this case: no big company would give over some rights of their mangas to MH for free.
They may use some of their idea - or more likely already have their own ideas that they consider better.
But my point is that in this case, they wouldn't go near MH or even use them as "consultants" because any free use manga pirate site is purely based on making money out of advertising on a web site, and not out of selling manga.
Anyone can understand how that works without getting a consultant :)
Keitaro - July 23, 2010 03:53 AM (GMT)
Looks like it's time to seriously study Japanese. That's one of the easiest way I can think of to read manga anyway.
But finding the raw will be the problem T_T
the_one092001 - July 23, 2010 03:58 AM (GMT)
|But my point is that in this case, they wouldn't go near MH or even use them as "consultants" because any free use manga pirate site is purely based on making money out of advertising on a web site, and not out of selling manga|
And yet, YouTube managed to do just that. They managed to turn themselves into a legitimate video platform to release and host media for the public. Originally, they hosted illegal uploads of copyrighted works, but now hosts VEVO legitimately on behalf of the big four music publishers. Similarly, television networks are releasing their content on YouTube because of the greater readership it brings.
Similarly, Crunchyroll turned from a replacement YouTube for fansubs after YouTube instituted their 10 minute video limit into a legitimate outlet that's able to actually license series for simulcast straight from Japan. A year ago Crunchyroll was nothing but a host for fansubs, but now has agreements with anime publishers to simulcast their works.
I'm not saying they should give away their work, but Crunchyroll made it work by offering a relatively cheap subscription. That's how iTunes did it too. People are still willing to pay for manga. They're just not willing to pay the exorbitant prices that are now charged and wait several months for a translation that may or may not be accurate (e.g. Gundam SEED Destiny manga).
Instead, people are willing to pay if the prices are reasonable and the translations delivered within a reasonable time frame. $20 for a CD album is a bit much, but 99 cents a song is much more reasonable. Likewise, $10+ per volume for chapters that were released over several months isn't a good deal, but $1 per chapter as they are released (since that's how they're read in Japan) is much more enticing.
That won't stop people from downloading it from other sites for free. Nothing will. iTunes didn't stop music piracy. But it did give a legal outlet for those who were willing to pay. I'm actually significantly more likely to buy a game if the developer/publisher doesn't saddle it with DRM. That's why I make sure I buy Paradox Interactive's games; they don't lock it down with any DRM.
kano - July 23, 2010 04:26 AM (GMT)
And yet ... almost everyone here uses Windows ... :P
Windows7 has got to be the biggest joke when it comes to this - encrypting the video signal from start all the way out of the graphics card and the monitor decrypting it ...
the_one092001 - July 23, 2010 04:58 AM (GMT)
|And yet ... almost everyone here uses Windows ...|
Your point? Compatibility-wise, it can't be beaten. Plus, unless you're buying a cheap netbook, or a Mac, it's almost impossible to buy a computer without Windows, which nips a good deal of piracy in the bud by forcing the consumer to buy Windows with their PC. But even Microsoft has begun to cave to the internet age by allowing DDL sales of Windows upgrades. The only copy of Windows I've ever purchased independent of a computer was Windows 7, which I got for $30 as a DDL with no disc involved.
Internet distribution is cheaper, easier, and faster than physical distribution and allows for the revision of mistakes. Apple realized that. Microsoft realized that. Amazon realized that. The RIAA realized that. The MPAA realized that. Netflix, iTunes, the Microsoft store, Amazon's Kindle, all of those platforms have become successful by selling the same products people used to consume in a physical format in a purely digital format.
They don't even have to sell them at cheaper prices. Albums on the iTunes music store have prices that are pretty similar to those you'd pay in a store, as are the movies. But it's more convenient and flexible.
Tmoo - July 23, 2010 06:04 AM (GMT)
let's get back to manga here.
personally, i don't care about onemanga or any related online manga-reading sites. i have read some manga through their sites, but it is never the same as DL'ing the chapters and reading them via windows picture viewer. it feels cheap; degraded. this is coming from the jaded scanlator within me - I feel these sites hold no respect for the manga they host, much less for the scanlators and even less than that for the actual mangaka. when chapters are uploaded, i see all of the gratitude going towards the uploaders, and only the uploaders. i don't particularly care about receiving thanks for scanlations anymore, but to thank the uploader and not give a thought to the mangaka, rubs me the wrong way - and these sites perpetuate it.
you can probably tell i'm biased on this. i wouldn't be human if i didn't have at least some biases.
kano - July 23, 2010 06:27 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (the_one092001 @ Jul 22 2010, 11:58 PM)|
|And yet ... almost everyone here uses Windows ...|
My point was simple.
Argue about DRM but you don't care that you use it every day :P
Anyway - yeah back to MH and the likes.
The Kindle and the Nook already exist and that is a method by which manga could be distributed.
The sooner that they start doing that ... the sooner scanlations will be a lot better :D
And, of course, I'd not mind downloading the J versions from a pay site from the distributor as long as some/most of the money goes to the mangaka.
the_one092001 - July 23, 2010 06:56 AM (GMT)
|My point was simple.|
Argue about DRM but you don't care that you use it every day
Not by choice, and in any event for most people it doesn't matter since it's not something they'd need to pirate. Any computer they buy already comes with it; Windows PCs and Macs both use DRM to protect their products, and Linux PCs are a minority at best. Windows piracy gets overblown in developing countries but that's because Microsoft shafts them by releasing that crappy "Starter edition" rather than simply sticking with the normal Home Premium/Professional/Ultimate tiering system they use elsewhere. I don't like it, but there is little choice in the matter for the average consumer. I do have a choice about the games I buy, and I'm more likely to buy games that don't have DRM. Obviously, I can't buy Xbox games without DRM, but that's not something that I can determine anyway.
|I feel these sites hold no respect for the manga they host, much less for the scanlators and even less than that for the actual mangaka. when chapters are uploaded, i see all of the gratitude going towards the uploaders, and only the uploaders. i don't particularly care about receiving thanks for scanlations anymore, but to thank the uploader and not give a thought to the mangaka, rubs me the wrong way - and these sites perpetuate it.|
OneManga itself never did that though. It never stated who uploaded what; it only cited the manga name and the scanlator group. That's why AQS is credited with half of the Negima chapters, and there's no uploader citation field at all. Other sites may have done that, but OM only cited the chapter name/number and scanlating group, although it was the most "bare bones" in terms of interface.
SagittaMagica - July 23, 2010 07:08 AM (GMT)
It's simply Japan's xenophobia acting again really...
With all the C&D on VN translations
(like the Minori V.S. NNL case which is quite funny), Baldr Sky, Kara no Shoujo, Demons Devel Concept, Shugo no Tate,
MajikoiNO WAY! and now, this for the manga side of business
Though, if there was one convenience for me in using these manga browsing sites was, I can check out the art of a particular series and when I find it palatable, off I go to track and hunt in the usual places.
OM was one hell of an AD-revenue generator. @ 56KBps, a page would load at around 2-5 seconds because of the ads. This is one prime reason why publishers are pissed at these sites. Not to mention, they(online manga sites) are receiving income from stuff they didn't make/scanlate. That is just wrong, they get money for hosting crapily-resized scanlations.. so wrong!
the_one092001 - July 23, 2010 07:37 AM (GMT)
|That is just wrong, they get money for hosting crapily-resized scanlations.. so wrong!|
I never quite understood why people always complained about the size of the images. Even on OneManga, which uses a relatively low resolution (others like MangaFox use both original and downscaled resolution), on my 1920x1080 16" screen (which crams things into a tiny space), images are still larger than they would be on the equivalent printed page in a bookstore standard volume.
Yes, they're not quite in the multi-megapixel range, but beyond a certain point the extra resolution is wasted. I'd say it has more to do with the use of screen real estate, such as scanlators that don't bump the text size up to fit the given text bubble and end up with lots of blank space. But that too is a consistency and formatting issue that even high-quality groups fall prey to. Long story short though, text on a page should be readable as if it were sized to a normal manga volume, not shrunk to a size that would only be readable with a magnifying glass/high zoom.
SagittaMagica - July 23, 2010 07:42 AM (GMT)
The size is fine, and I dont mind them re-sizing it...
Its just that, the quality suffered too much due to it, thats why I whined about crappily-resized OM manga pages
kano - July 23, 2010 11:12 AM (GMT)
Actually more on the resizing ...
When we scanlate here the page height is 1200 pixels.
We make sure everything is readable as 1200.
If a font is too small and not readable (during QC) we will do something about it e.g. make it bigger is the usual thing to do (but sometimes re-typesetting it also or other options)
When you then scale the page down below 1200, sometimes you CAN'T read it all.
This was not rare in Negima! - when Yue or other's had their large monologues.
Even worse, some of them also use JPG (when they scale it down) and add artefacts all over the page that were not there on the scanlation.
Yep when they scale them down - they do sometimes suck ... badly.