Title: 40k: Breaking with the traditional
Commissar Molotov - June 16, 2006 08:24 PM (GMT)
I thought this might be an interesting topic - consider it the 'realism vs charicature' topic I discussed with Aerion and DOGGED's recent comments.
A lot of us are used to a very gritty, gothic, westernised style of 40k. When artists such as Aerion or Seato fiddle with that style, the response isn't always positive. Aerion's drawings have a very cartoon-esque style
, whilst Seato is clearly influenced by Japanese manga
Do such images have a place in 40k? Do they undermine the setting?
What's your opinion on the issue?
Drakkar Windrider - June 16, 2006 09:40 PM (GMT)
I will say this:
One can only look at so many battlefield scenes with the same old tired style GW uses before one starts to ignore the purty pictures and go straight for the fluff.
+P.S: Aerion, I see you've drawn Sanguinius, Lion'El and Ferrus Manus. When will we see His Beardiness Lord Leman Russ? :P
Dark Chaplain - June 16, 2006 11:24 PM (GMT)
screw russ!! wheres kurze???
anyway, i agree with Drakkar on the other thing, that whilst the GW pictures are nice and dark/gothic and so fitting with the idea of the 40k universe, i think that the work of Seato and Aerion is a refreshing brake from the norm.
Keep it up guys!!
MIGHTYPanhead - June 16, 2006 11:35 PM (GMT)
It has a definite place, but it's not entirely to my taste...
Personally, I prefer realistic pictures, but that's just opinion. To exclude one style because it doesn't "fit" with your views is narrow-minded, and kind of disputes a purpose of art; as a means of expression.
my reflective opinon? Bring on the variety! Clearly people like it, so it can't be a bad thing! :)
Cpt_Tiberius - June 17, 2006 01:53 AM (GMT)
|One can only look at so many battlefield scenes with the same old tired style GW uses before one starts to ignore the purty pictures and go straight for the fluff.|
See, I have the complete opposite reaction. I'm fed up with Manga for the most part. Not because Anime/manga is inherently bad, it's just that I sick of being inundated by it.
Commissar Molotov - June 17, 2006 02:04 AM (GMT)
I'd agree - manga's the in thing at the moment. We have an endless stream of Dragonball Z/Pokémon-esque programmes here in Britain. I just recently watched Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children and I didn't really engage with it.
I think that manga and the like tends to detract from the realism of the picture, and often the gritty realism is what attracts
you me to the picture.
Captain Seato - June 17, 2006 03:38 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Commissar Molotov @ Jun 17 2006, 02:04 AM)|
| We have an endless stream of Dragonball Z |
That is because Dragonball Z 1) appeals to kids (when edited for content) and 2) has several hundred episodes. Much like Inu Yasha has several hundred episodes. Both also have several movies tied to those stories.
The distinction must be made though, that there are Japanese artists who do use a realistic style, for example, the creators of "Crying Freeman" and "Crusher Joe".
Commissar Molotov - June 17, 2006 03:40 AM (GMT)
I'd be interested to see examples of their work, Seato. :)
nitpicker - June 17, 2006 05:16 AM (GMT)
|Do such images have a place in 40k? Do they undermine the setting?|
Do they have a place? Yes art has been and is different all over the world today and well be 38'000 years from now. Take the U.M company banner for the third company i think. It is in my opinion an awful piece since the fluff Say's space marine banner's are not only holy relic's but things of great beauty that banner looks like something i drew and i can barely draw stick person's straight.
I like aerion's pics i find them a lot less garish and busy then G.W art which overdoses on detail in a lot of there art.
Captain Seato - June 17, 2006 06:06 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Commissar Molotov @ Jun 17 2006, 03:40 AM)|
| I'd be interested to see examples of their work, Seato. :) | Some examples from "Crying Freeman"
* * *One example of Yoshikazu Yasuhiko's "Crusher Joe"
(it must be noted that in my cursory search of this one, mostly images from the anime showed up).An example of the artist's work on "MS Gundam"
* * *
Many of the better anime titles tend to have more 'normal' bodies and little to none of the "chibi
" factor. Also, there is a growing trend among newer anime to stick closer to realistic bodies and facial structure. "Vision of Escaflowne", "Macross Plus", "Macross Zero", "Sentou Yousei Yukikaze", "Trinity Blood", Blood+", "Mezzo" and "Karas" to name a few.
=][=Nine Breaker=][= - June 17, 2006 07:21 AM (GMT)
The manga style artwork...I like it, and it certainly has it's place. However, I'm not a fan of it being used for 40k or GW in general. The GW stuff is known for its "realistic grimness". the manga style drawing just doesn't pull it off that well in my opinion. However, I don't like a lot of this new 40k art popping up either, with all the trillions of tiny details and such all over the place. Personally, I prefer the art from 3rd Ed. by a large margin.
Flame of Udun - June 17, 2006 09:40 AM (GMT)
Personally I think it all has a place. I love Aerion's work and I think Seato's work is really good, but I do agree that there is quite an abundance of manga/anime art out there and that it can often feel repetetive and over done. However, like all things, if done well it looks great. Personally my favourite manga artists are Kenichi Sonoda (famous for Gunsmith cats and Cannon God Exaxxion), Kazuo Koike (Lone Wolf and Cub, Craying Freeman and Samurai Executioner) and Masamune Shirow (Appleseed, Ghost in the Shell). I'd love to see a shirow take on an Space marine dreadnought!
Commissar Molotov - June 17, 2006 03:49 PM (GMT)
(Aerion, I don't mean to personalise this - I'm not saying this is your work vs the GW orthodoxy, but yours is a good example.)This
are extracts from Aerion's comic, 'Farewell Sister'. This
is a drawing from Codex: Witch-hunters
Is one truly 'better' than the other? They both deal with the same content in different ways, and appeal to those of different tastes.
Cpt_Tiberius - June 17, 2006 03:56 PM (GMT)
|Personally my favourite manga artists are Kenichi Sonoda (famous for Gunsmith cats and Cannon God Exaxxion), Kazuo Koike (Lone Wolf and Cub, Craying Freeman and Samurai Executioner) and Masamune Shirow (Appleseed, Ghost in the Shell). I'd love to see a shirow take on an Space marine dreadnought!|
All of these guys are excellent. :) I've been a huge Shirow fan since they first published Appleseed over here back in the late 80's. I too would love to see him do a dread, though I think a defiler would be more up his alley since it looks like a spider. :P
Here is a guy who is a perfect example of good manga art that is more realistic.Hiroaki Samura
His series "Blade of the Immortal" is one of the best written and most beautiful comics to look at I've ever ran across. I highly reccomend checking out the series. If your interested they sell the collected editions at most Barnes & Nobles stores.
p.s. For you Masamune Shirow fans I ran across this news story you might find interesting...news story
=][=Nine Breaker=][= - June 17, 2006 04:54 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Commissar Molotov @ Jun 17 2006, 03:49 PM)|
| (Aerion, I don't mean to personalise this - I'm not saying this is your work vs the GW orthodoxy, but yours is a good example.)|
This and this are extracts from Aerion's comic, 'Farewell Sister'.
This is a drawing from Codex: Witch-hunters.
Is one truly 'better' than the other? They both deal with the same content in different ways, and appeal to those of different tastes.
I'd say, no, one isn't better than the other. I just think that the way GW does their art suits the game better. That's just an opinion however, and I could certainly see somebody who enjoys the manga style drawings as much as or more than the western style GW has going.
Aerion the Faithful - June 17, 2006 06:45 PM (GMT)
Well, since i've been named several times on this thread (and it being my idea partially), i thought i might as well say something about it :P ...
First off, i would like to clear up something that i believe is important: it's not a matter of 'realism VS caricature', because i think the two styles are valid in every artistic manifestation, and as such shouldn't be opposed as if one was better than the other. They are different, and that's what makes this discussion all the more interesting. I've had it, as you can imagine, a zillion times over and not only because i've touched the universe of Warhammer 40,000 and so, i've come to read a lot of opinions on the subject, and many points of view.
My position on this matter, of course, is a bit biased. However, i hope you will pardon me...
One very important thing to have in mind when analizing art, is that it's just that: art. Art is not photography, and therefore, as realistic as a painting can be, it will always be a representation of what the artist sees and feels. If we want to be completely honest, there is no such thing as 'realistic' art, because by drawing a simple line (wich is a human invention) we are already straying from the reality of this world in wich the line doesn't exist at all. As a representation, it can resemble more or less the reality from wich it draws its inspiration, but that does not make it any more or less valid. In his book Understanding Comics, Scott McLoud states that while it is 'vox populi' that a cartoony style is 'easier' to draw than a realistic one, that's not actually the case. When you work with clean lines and closer to a geometrical structure, you get across to the eye and the mind of the viewer much more faster (being the circle, square and triangle, the three most important shapes the human eye recognizes). Therefore, it is almost impossible to miss a line in a 'cartoony style', because it shows instantly. With a more rendered style (such as the one that GW offers us in their Codex and publications) the chances of realizing instantly a mistake by the artist are less, because the rendition darws the eye at several points at the same time, thus making it difficult for the viewer to spot any mistakes or stylistic 'liberties'. But, who's to say that the famous Inquisitor Hand illustration by Adrian Smith is realistic? Are the proportions realistically portrayed? Take a closer look and you'll se what i mean.
Some people like Da Vinci, others love Picasso, and they're worlds apart, but none can say that one is better than the other, as has been stated in this very thread.
Regarding specifically my art and the universe of Warhammer 40,000, all i can say in my favour is that i always try to bring originality to the projects i work in. And that is sometimes frowned upon by people who don't like to be shown new things or different views of the same old they're used too. It is very difficult for us little imperfect beings to get accustomed to a change, but that doesn't mean the change is bad. I feel i've brought a very particular vision to the universe of 40K, and many have enjoyed it and want to see more, and that is more than i could ever ask. Others have not liked it, but have seen that my work is professional, and for that i thank them.
The bottom line, i believe, is that there is no such thing as a style fitting for this or that; but rather, different visions of the same world and realities. As as different and unique are the visions, the more space we have to interpret our very own reality.
I would like to take this opportunity to let you know that i will not be participating in the forums as much as i'd like, because i've received a confirmation that a graphic novel entirely written and illustrated by me will be published next year in the US. Therefore i have a lot of work to do and will not have much free tie to spend amongst you as i'd like. I will, nonetheless, bring you images of the 41st Millenium whenever i get the chance, and i will also try to bring my input into this (already great) forum for artists.
Aerion the Faithful
Commissar Molotov - June 17, 2006 06:50 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Aerion the Faithful @ Jun 17 2006, 06:45 PM)|
| I would like to take this opportunity to let you know that i will not be participating in the forums as much as i'd like, because i've received a confirmation that a graphic novel entirely written and illustrated by me will be published next year in the US. Therefore i have a lot of work to do and will not have much free tie to spend amongst you as i'd like. I will, nonetheless, bring you images of the 41st Millenium whenever i get the chance, and i will also try to bring my input into this (already great) forum for artists.|
Aerion the Faithful
That's a terrible shame, but congratulations! Keep us informed about your project. I'm sure that when it's published, you'll get several sales just from us. :)
Flame of Udun - June 17, 2006 06:53 PM (GMT)
Hehe, Aerion the faithful, laying the smack down for diversity! :D
Very well said mate, couldn't have put it better myself, and very well done with the graphic novel!!! B)
Just out of curiosity who is the prospective publisher? or does that still have to be kept under wraps?
Drakkar Windrider - June 17, 2006 07:38 PM (GMT)
Of course, there is also the "it's my art and I'll do whatever I want with it", or the even better "I am not going to conform with other people's style or give up on drawing because someone thinks my style doesn't fit the theme".
Also, congratulations. But I still want that Leman Russ!
Cpt_Tiberius - June 17, 2006 07:55 PM (GMT)
First off let me say congratulations to you, Aerion, on getting the confirmation on your graphic novel. I am thrilled for you and pleased that more people will get a chance to see how truly talented you are. Let us know when it will be out as I will definitely be first in line to pick it up. :)
|The bottom line, i beieve, is that hre eis no such thing as a style fitting for this or that; but rather, different visions of the same world and realities. As as different and unique are the visions, the more space we have to interpret our very own reality.|
While I agree with most of your post, I have to disagree with this first statement. There are styles that are more fitting for certain subject matter, and it depends on the artist's intent as to whether the style he uses is appropriate to convey his meaning.
Art itself is a form of visual communication that attempts to impress upon the viewer a feeling or emotional response. The style is the dialect of the language of art and so changes the meaning of the images in the piece. A "messy/realistic" style is more useful to GW as it subconciously gives the viewer key visual indicators that create the desired paradigm in the viewer's mind.
For example a monster that is done in a painterly "realistic" manner will cause a more frightful response in the viewer than one that is more "cartoony". Style is a useful medium as much as paints, inks or computers are. It just depends what kind of reaction you want to create.
Does this mean that one is "better" than the other? Hardly, but it does not mean that one is not more suitable than the other. I like Aerion's work because it IS different. It's not as grim or messy as the normal GW work, but it does convey the passion of the setting.
Aerion the Faithful - June 17, 2006 09:39 PM (GMT)
Thanks, brothers, for wishing me luck. I have to be honest with you: it has been a great drive for me to get such great feedback from people like you, and i could never ask for a better public.
I still can't reveal much of the project, since it is going to be kept quiet until it's done, but if i can leak some information, i'll sure keep you updated! :)
Tiberius: I understand your point. But who's to say that, for example, Mignola's style doesn't fit horror?. And perhaps many would've turn their backs on him for doing something bordering on 'cartoon' (if not entirely). But, he did something that has a lot of effect on the reader: he used almost the opposite of what the viewer was expecting, thus giving the experience of reading a lot more depth. If we use a cartoon style to make a war comic, most people are going to pick it up thinking it's a children's story, and be surprised when it's not, and even more to see such a style fitting that tale. I believe that it's not a question of styles, as it more a question of rendition, when it comes to suit a story. My style, if heavily darkened with lots of spotted blacks (like in Frank Miller's Sin City) would suit a noir comic, but if renedered more shiny, could suit a children's book.
The best example of this was my big discovery of working with B&W and a shade of colour for my 40K stuff. Back when i began illustrating Warhammer, i did so in full colour, but realized through the use of a limited palette, that i was getting a better atmosphere and mood.
Anyway, this is getting more interesting every minute, so, let's keep it up!
Aerion the Faithful
Captain Seato - June 18, 2006 01:07 AM (GMT)
Congratulations Aerion! I'll be sure to check up your album for newpieces as you upload them as well as keeping an eye out for the publication of your work!
I know someone famous now! :lol:
Ixajin - June 18, 2006 02:32 AM (GMT)
Sweet! Way to go Aerion with the graphic novel confirmation! I too will be keeping my eyes open for this, as I really enjoy your work. B) :D
Cpt_Tiberius - June 18, 2006 02:37 AM (GMT)
Why oh Why did you have to go and play the Mignola card :o Brought low by my own idol (actually two of them ;) )
However you will have to admit that Mignola's work is meant to be more pulp action than truly terrifying. And as the old adage goes "There's an exception to every rule..."
Touché my freind, touché...
feuer_faust - June 20, 2006 02:59 AM (GMT)
My views are thusly: if it looks good, then it must be fitting.
Aerion's stuff is a unique view (since he's getting such a healthy dose of spotlight) on 40k, and perosnally seeing simple faces in otherwise detailed scenes is frefreshing, and the simplified emmotion shown in those faces work for me.
Seato's work is very neatly done, and the marines honestly look a lot like the direction the current GW art is heading. The humans and such clearly show the anime influence, but still have a 40kish look.
I've seen soem realistic work that doens't really look good at all (the cover to the RT supplement with the marine with no glove), and lots that does. Same with eastern-style. It's all really on a case-by-case for me.
Alaric the Mad - July 11, 2006 06:51 PM (GMT)
I dont mind anime (especially the work of Shirow) but I dont feel it has any place in the 40k universe. The 40k world is about eternal war and baroque sensibilities-just as I feel a manga graphic novel of Dune wouldnt feel right. To me this cannot be seen as the validity of style but instead the validity of style as it applies to a dark universe.
That being said, GW changes the feel of their games whilly nilly so... my opinions may be biased by what I looked for in the 40k universe.
And one more thing. I have NO ABILITY to draw cartoony characters...so my hats off to Aerion for such awesome work.
Ophidicus - July 12, 2006 03:03 PM (GMT)
Hmmm... this is tricky.
As a matter of taste, I'm pretty indifferent to 'unrealistic' art, cartoons, anime, that sort of thing, which, not being horrible or owt, includes Aerion's work, it just doesn't click with me. It's a matter of taste, in the same way I like gritty raw Metal music, I like gritty raw art.
As to fitting 40k I love the current GW style typified by, for example, the Inquisition armies' art, it's very dark (both in literal & figurative terms) and nasty, it's not a happy place, you don't want to live there. Cleaner artistic styles detract from this, and as that's what I like, I have no reason to pay them any attention. I am very glad they've broken from the more hard-edged style of 10 years ago (Wayne England & Mark Gibbons being the artists I'm particularly referring to).
Captain Seato - July 15, 2006 01:08 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Ophidicus @ Jul 12 2006, 03:03 PM)|
| It's a matter of taste, in the same way I like gritty raw Metal music, I like gritty raw art. |
Then I guess you wouldn't like Black Heaven
(anime based around "raw metal music"). :P
Ixajin - July 15, 2006 02:00 PM (GMT)
That looks simply wicked!
Cpt_Tiberius - July 15, 2006 02:42 PM (GMT)
Okay, after thinking about this more, I'm going to have to change my mind. I personally would love to see a 40k anime. But it would have to be done with good production quality. I think the closest anime I can think of would be Jin-Roh. If you don't think anime can be gritty check this one out. And pick up Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence as well. The later has scenes that are every bit as baroque as 40k art (when Batou is at that castle).
The problem with anime is that most of the cr@p we see is junk that is cranked out for tv. I think the biggest detriment to the US accepting anime as quality work is the show Dragonball Z (and pokemon as well). At least dragonball has the excuse of being like 20 years old, but still irritating as heck. I have this discussion with a friend of mine all the time. He won't give anime a chance because of shows like those, and he likes cartoons so that's not the problem.
Flame of Udun - July 15, 2006 05:54 PM (GMT)
I have to agree with you Tiberius, I think a large part of the problem with the perception of manga and anime as valid art forms is a direct result of the pap that gets churned out on kids tv and the general rep that manga has acquired about it all being tentacle porn and ecchi crap is generally unfair. I also think that alot of artists get sick of seeing poorly done manga/anime styled pics online again due to the sheer abundance of rubbish out there. Personally I'd like tosee somebody interpret the 40k universe in a cubist style painting but I think thats just me being evil :)
Captain Seato - July 15, 2006 07:21 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Cpt_Tiberius @ Jul 15 2006, 02:42 PM)|
| And pick up Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence as well. |
Do not, I repeat, DO NOT pick this movie up. Additionally, do not pick up the first movie.
The first GitS movie was an excuse for Mamoru Oshii to give his dog, Gabriel, 1.5 hours screen time in a 2 hour movie full of nothing but random, disjointed, philosophical meanderings. Another 20 minutes was devoted to action and the remaining time was taken up by the end credits.
The second movie tried to give the first some meaning while adding a whole lot of CGI eye-candy to distract viewers from the fact they wasted their time and money.
However, yes, Jin-Roh: the Wolf Brigade is a fine, sterling example of what anime can be.
Also, you Blood Ravens and Raven Guard fans might enjoy the raven imagery in the anime Karas
Ophidicus - July 17, 2006 02:16 PM (GMT)
If I may, I do not wish to be converted, I'm perfectly happy with my misery :P heheh. I prefer gritty realism, grit alone is not enough. By 'gritty' I mean seeing every detail of dirt and grease, every imperfection and flaw. I suppose it says a lot about me, judging all things by their flaws, and disdaining the flawed representation of flaws... Anime/cartoons are just too clean for my "warts and all" tastes.
Take the movie Jacob's Ladder and call Vietnam Catachan (as GW did) and you have my image of what 40k looks like.
Black Heaven: Ick, sparkles, no ta. Why the quote marks by the way? I can't quite tell if you're being ironic.
Stugmeister - July 17, 2006 02:58 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Ophidicus @ Jul 17 2006, 02:16 PM)|
| Why the quote marks by the way? I can't quite tell if you're being ironic. |
Capt. Seato's just quoting you so that he can reply without making the thread turn into a mess of disjointed posts - I don't think he's been intentionally ironic.
Ophidicus - July 17, 2006 03:06 PM (GMT)
Not the box, I meant around "raw metal music"... it confused me (As I did you, my apologies). I have high standards of Metal y'see. It isn't "raw" unless it sounds like it was recorded in a sewer.
Captain Seato - July 18, 2006 02:07 AM (GMT)
I grew up with Metalica and Guns ' Roses. My opinion, the opening to the anime Black Heaven, "Cautionary Warning", was pretty decent rock.
Ophidicus - July 18, 2006 02:26 AM (GMT)
By 'high standards' I mean I'm a total elitist Metal nazi. 'gritty' means Darkthrone, Mayhem, Axis of Perdition, that sort of thing. I make exceptions for sparkliness only when there's elves involved cos elves are speshul, but apart from that I like my dirt filthier than Rupert Murdoch's pockets. No anime for me.
Revliss - July 18, 2006 02:46 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Flame of Udun @ Jul 15 2006, 05:54 PM)|
| (I also think that alot of artists get sick of seeing poorly done manga/anime styled pics online again due to the sheer abundance of rubbish out there.)|
( Personally I'd like to see somebody interpret the 40k universe in a cubist style painting but I think thats just me being evil :)
for a dude that have read Manga for 20 years ( yes i read Manga form age 4) i do feel your pain seeing poorly done manga/anime styled pics online, as for i think i most are just new to drawing manga and the books out there how to draw Manga books well they suck they just go in to drawing Manga befor knowing the Basic of drawing to propotion and anatome and think drawing Manga it easy well it not more easyer then drawing any that is realism.
end of the serios stuff
oh you want to see somebody interpret the 40k universe in a cubist style painting hmm have you seen my cubist Eldar Avata of Doom :P
P.s : my english spelling suck so hope i did not confuse any one
Flame of Udun - July 18, 2006 09:00 AM (GMT)
I think I'd like to see that cubist Avatar, revliss ;)
When it comes down to it, this debate is kind of like marmite (veggiemite for those abroad) some people like it, some people don't, thats just the way it is, some people only like the GW/realist style of 40k and some people embrace broader interpretations of the 40k universe.
Captain Seato - July 20, 2006 08:21 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Ophidicus @ Jul 18 2006, 02:26 AM)|
| I like my dirt filthier than Rupert Murdoch's pockets. No anime for me. |
Okay, music aside, there are plenty of dark anime for a man of your tastes. Wicked City springs to mind, right off the bat. Angel Cop, Akira, Silent Mobius, Berserk, Vampire Hunter D, Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, Blood: the last Vampire, the latter half of Full Metal Alchemist, Battle Royale.
I'll think of more later.