Do I really have to type out all the base crud again just to derail this... Alright, I'll just go find an old one and copy+paste it here. Tired of long types.
From my post on B and C
Alright here comes Mutt-Man!'s thread derailing post. (hopefully)
First off, WHAT DID YOU LOSE! Ok, the caps may be out of line but once you read this, you may be thankful of this post. Just a reminder of how you can get around what you may think you've lost. (please read further)
Before I get started however, I will say that fluff is what the game is based on and alot is possible depending on the player's chosen 'fluff'. So when you see an emperor's children army with berzerkers, its the players fault for not following fluff, for example this means YOU are responsible for following your own choices. If you have a nurgle army with some tzeentch stuff or whatever that goes against their fluff, it was your choice to deviate from your line. The whole reasons of me typing below this is based on you following your fluff in compared to what you lost.
Legion: The lost parts
The solution. (plus notes)
Alpha Legion: Infiltration and Cultists.
Use 30 chosen infiltrators, that sums up to 540 points in base troops + 15 weapon options in total. In order to GET 15 weapon options, you needed (min maxxing) 7.5 5-man squads with infiltration. If I add that up right, you needed 1.5 in classic chosen, with spendier models. Really? Thats mad. Then as for troops, you miss your cultists right? Try some kroot to replace those rules. Superior-same point models (without infiltrate, but with boltguns*, str4 and forest-walk ability AND melee) seems pretty much cult-like to me enough. (The most infiltrating powerfist/power weapons in the game in one list)
Rules are here: http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/tau...ist/default.htm
Black Legion: Lost nothing really.
Stick with it lads.
Night Lords: 4 Fast attack, Night Vision
Night vision I really feel your loss, no really I do....not... Who used it anyways? Even then who in their right mind would not pick fast melee as a night lords just to shoot at night? (the only scenarios in the dozen we get including night fighting/dawn/dusk rarity) Next is the 4 fast attack. Really was there a loss, was there anyone who fielded 40 total bikes? 40 bikes in the old = 1360 points total. Meaning a slim 1500 or a build for 2k force was there. Primarily melee based, and raptors were a prime at 40 raptors. You guys miss hit and run much? I would pay 9 points less a raptor to not have hit and run myself. Krak/Frag/CCW/BP all there guys, but the raptors are dirt cheap compared to the last. Not only that, you can pack 60 in 3 fast attack choices. Alot more then before right? 'Nuff said here.
Word Bearers: 9 Troop choices, demomague, cursed crozius.
Alright we can pack 5-20 in most of our options, raptors marines (marked and unmarked, havoc and otherwise) bikes, chosen and termies being the only acceptions max at 10 per. Plus daemons dont take up space, so no complaints there. Demomague, ok our lords are fearless, and our overall fearlessness has been dubbed a little. On all sides, no fearless sorcerers for example, but our daemons no longer unstable but just fearless instead. Lots of loss and counterbalance benefits here and there. Now for cursed Crozius, alright you want your 4+ inv save? Give him MoTzeentch, sure its not fluffy really but who cares, when you fling around his daemon weapon and have 4+ inv you should be happy.
Iron Warriors: Basilisk, Siege Specialists, 4th heavy slot
Alright you guys can throw together the rules for the bassi, and require consent to use it as VDR (Vehicle Design Rules) its 125 pts from the rules, or just 105 without heavy bolter, same stats but no indirect fire possible. If your a fluffy IW player, not using much in the way of marks, and daemons then your opponent should allow the basilisk. Siege specialists, well now here is a big loss, how many games you play with bunkers or fortifications? Honestly ask yourself, how much... (Plus its fluffy for Iron Warriors to have berzerkers) So you've gained a little on the offhand fluffwise, right? 4th heavy slot, well. Try packing 30 chosen with 15 special weapons, and see what you get in the old versus the new. Sure you may say oblits took that part up, but since you got 4 heavy/3 elite, each elite with just 3 special weapons you can see the difference. (Elites+Havocs) New15+12=27 versus 9+16=25. Or, 3 Vindicators for you ordinance types.
Ok undivided I covered. Now its for the cult models.
Tzeentch units, well now why wouldnt you want 5+ inv save havocs? Cool right? Alright lets say your a TSons player and want a bunch of them. How many can you fit in 2k, all 120? I doubt that, so you can still pack a pure TSons army as before. What, dont like the psychic powers? You would have to be mad to dislike the powers avalible to you now, like warptime, doombolt, wind of chaos and the improved gift of chaos. Missing auto-passing tests? How about having a force weapon on every psyker you own? That a good counterbalance to you? Plus twin-powers to pick from in case you want to multi-task your spendy units that have 4+ inv saves rather then 2 wounds. Sure flak fire beats them up, but that same flak shooter types like basic troopers have AP3 bolters to worry about. So what mostly beats your army up, your army beats them back just as good. Rhinos cost less so that counterbalances the spendy sorcerers a little. Not to mention they come with smoke... Every TSons player I know offline and online say their armies are improved and wont collect dust again. Nuff said here I believe. (Plus fluffy warped sorcerers being heavy support I.E. Obliterators and the like)
Khorne Units, ok you got quad attack raptors cheap as hell, and your basic zerks can still pack a whallop at WS, STR and I 5's on the charge! Losing chainaxes have nothing on this benefit, sure they cost a bit more but with frag+krak+furious charge under the old codex they would cost 4 points more then these guys. Think of it, krak on the zerks you own for free! As well as the loss of that zerk rage bull****. Really have you had 4 consecutive games where half your zerks chased skimmers, and your opponent held back his firepower to see if he can beat you without killing them at their weakest? I have, and it put an inch of dust collecting on my zerks for several years now. Since cheaper rhinos came around with super zerks that can harm wraithlords on the charge now hitting most things on 3+.. I come to think of it this way. Here is the average rolls last codex: 4+hit, 4+wound, 4+ save or worse. Now its 3+ hit, 3+ wound, 3+ save or otherwise, then they get to attack after their casualties, further its 4+ wound/same attack rate for MEQ. 2+ saves the difference in kill ratio only dropped 25% or so while other armor saves kill rate raised 30% or more. Great trade considering my champ kicks more butt now with those stats! (My champs one charge kill other MEQ HQ's, thats power my friend)
Nurgle Units, lost nothing, gained feel no pain, all those grenades, CCW/BP/Bolter combo, lost a single initiative but thats to be expected due to needing 72 lasgun shots to kill a single plague marine. Thats more then a terminator, buddy... 18 heavy bolter shots to kill 1 marine as well, whitch translates to 6 heavy bolters. Great for coupling plagues with tanks, dont you think? Make him wonder where to shoot his instant death high ap rounds at. The extra toughness for the mark/icon is great for havocs and the like, wonders do not cease with this plague monster landslide.
Finally slaanesh. Ok so they did away with that crazy rapturous standard and its fuggered up rules. Made the mark simpler by giving you a straight bonus rather then a crazy base-contact only thing. Made your sonic marines a point heavier but no real drawback. They gave you a krak-blast-pinning weapon, and a ap3 flamer for the champion. Still have those sonic blasters, and CCW/BP to add to anything you do giving your extra initiative some real merit. Give I5 to raptors and terminators and they still love it. Lost sonic weps on your termies and such, so what? They belong in melee anyways. They can have plasma combi's on them too now so you can still pack a punch with them, unlike before its high AP punching.
Ok unit changes and the like.
Chosen are infiltrating 5 special weapon using punks that need no griping about. Champ status to get a special weapon? Already included or done away with depending what you get.
Terminators, miss the 3 per gun ratio? Take 3 termie units. Or take 30 (at their 6 points cheaper cost) with new combi-plasma option. Give them 5 attacks each Icon of Khorne+Champ+claws and 6 on the charge, or make them tough with 4+ inv saves or T5. Alot can be done with this unit, and may I mention you can deep strike them always and potentially daemonbomb them teleport via an icon.
Possessed, who used these guys in 3rd edition rules set anyways? I like how they been changed now, with the icons giving them variable options along with potential rending/power weapons and the like. Still spendy, but considering what they can have with one good roll, its more effective in the long run if you run a few of these guys.
Dreadnoughts, sure ok they got that crazy shoot me rule back. They're elites now though, and if you make them melee oriented, and face them towards the left or right side border with nothing in their 180 degree fire arc, you will most likely be able to keep advancing them towards the enemy. You can also pack 3 defilers along with them for a stomper style army as well.
Our basic marines, even though min/max is gone, we've got the icons, bp/ccw/bolter + grenades all in our package now, cheaper rhinos and a reason to pack them with 10 marines.
Cult units already been posted above - skipping to the rest.
Alrighty pretty much halfway, 10 minute break.
Back... I hate long posts.. I do it to shut people's negativity down though, third time posting what I think of the whole codex.. Damn it to hell.
Bikes, same as before but wait, here is why they arent really cheap. Khorne Icon, 3 bikes can attack like 4 bikes on the charge. If it were 10 bikes(40 attacks), that means you had to get an extra 3 bikes (99 points) to get that sort of attack volume. Oh hey, why not give them a 2+ turbo boosting save, really! The daemonbomb was worsened. More on that later in tactics. The higher initiative for melee, and the toughness 6 bikes, it goes on and on. Sickening, really...
Raptors, want cheap bikes, give them toughness 5! How about inv saves for these cheap fellas? I mentioned before, no hit and run and benefit for nearly 30% less in cost. Icons for the various benefits, can fit 20 per fast attack choice. Insane change for these guys, really it is. Why hit and run when you get 30% more in numbers.
Predator changes, well all marine armies are getting this points change shafting. Dont worry, few will gripe once all are sporting spendy lascannon boats. Except we get the cool havoc launcher for our dakka predator, whitch is on par with the leman russ exterminator the puppies get. We rock here still even if the points standard has changed.
Havocs, ok who thought of putting 20 havocs all with inv saves together? What a firebase unit! Not only that, they can fight like our raptors in melee. What in hell gave GW the idea to make our shooty element, able to fight off a bunch of assault marines? We lost tank hunters, but with these numbers and icons, with short/long ranged weapons we've got nothing but smiles here.
Land Raider, its 30 points cheaper, nuff said.
Vindicator, same as loyalists, but as a prime melee army, we can benefit from short range punches and a vehicle to draw fire like a vindi can. A very nice selection for us. A while new option as well as putting a smile on some Iron Warrior faces losing their 0-1 limit. (Dont complain everyone can get one now IW players)
Obliterators, the most dubious trade around. No more 0-1, less toughness, and costs more, lost and gained weapon options. Fluffwise, they cant make any ammo but energy so thats understandable. Losing that toughness, well previously they get instant killed by str8 so that's not changed. Their 2 wounds can still take a decent number of non-ap2/1 shots in the long run. They still slow and purposeful/deep strike as before. They are certainly a heavy support style option fluffwise as well. But now, we get plasma cannons on them. 6 noise marine style plasma cannons (blastmaster), 3 in elites on dreads and 9 in heavy support, we got the plasma army like loyalists now! As a side note, multimeltas are a great option, seeing as our deep strike can sometimes put us out of range of the humble T-Lmeltagun's 6" melta rule. TL flamers for rerolling wounds, as effective as a heavy flamer now roughly. Move and shoot potential, plus the terminator/obliterator army of doom is possible. Teleport homing to marks and what not, making use of singles if you wish. Heavy support has a new option, the loss of the elites 0-1 for them. I say its a sound move made, but most hated by the iron warrior crowd who are now getting rid of them. I think its ok, I can see why others wouldnt see it as ok.
I miss something? Oh yeah the defiler. Here is my take on the indirect fire/fleet trade.
Why would a daemonicly fused war engine want to hang back when it has claws and is bloodthirsty? Those long legs certainly out-stride a dreadnoughts stride. Then there is the thing about indirect fire on a battle cannon in the first place, special rounds and whatnot. How could a defiler shoot at targets anyways behind stuff, special targetting system? Its beyond me fluffwise how they justified it. Great move by GW. Not like you cant put a rhino in front of it and obscure fire to the defiler for the hull down possibility. The extra melee trades is a great option as well. The BS/WS to 3's is also a great move. Its still the mutt of the army, a jack of all trades weapon. I will keep using it while others gripe about the mutated hull loss. (If GW wanted walking battlecannon melee predators with 13 side armors for 180 points, they woulda put one in there as its own entry) Nuff said here.
Characters, great great and more great, all I need to say.
Rhino Transport, cheaper, and can be as effective as a heavy bolter razorback. But still carry 10 marines, sounds weird doesnt it? Everyone getting the points shaft here and there so dont worry about the spendy extra armor ect. We're all getting that.
Daemons, ok here is the thing about these guys. Everyone hates them, because power weapons and rending and the other stuff is gone. Powergamers perspective, if they want shooty troops, they go with noise marines instead of Flamers of Tzeentch. If there was a need for power weapons, go with the cheap always deep striking terminators now, 2+ save ect icons and so on. If the powergamer wanted alot of plaguebearers, the points changes means you can take more daemons, thus balancing the loss of the toughness 5, and the extra attacks with those extra bodies balancing out the loss of nurgles rot. Then there are those griping about the guardsmen toughness costing more then a marine rending baywatch daemons. Daemonettes, specificly, the send in and hope they kill their cost gamblers. I never liked using them. So without further adeu, here is my praise of the daemons.
Cheaper, dont take up space in the slots, can pack many, many 5 size units to bog down the enemy, fearlessness ensures their devotion to stay in combat compared to instability rules, may have lost move+assault but since they dont scatter these days that is their own benefit, plus the godlike bikes you can send to daemonbomb them in the first place. The no moving is set there, so the enemy can move away after we turbo boost to them, allowing them a little relief from the daemon bomb massacre that wilol eventually come adding more strategy to win rather then just turbo boost and call it the game. 50 daemons is a mere 650 points anyways at MEQ stats with 5+ inv save rather then a 3+ armor save and ranged weapons, cheaper then a marine by 2 points, a very fair if unfair for the enemy IMO. We gained and lost some here, but overall terminators deep striking with them in elites, and the other daemons below and super daemonbombing many number raptors or tougher bikes is the prime for them. They also count as scoring units, I hate to see such an escillation game.
Cheaper, and generic. They lost psy powers and wings, but thats no major loss with super-bikes getting them there now. Can come in from any champion/character, whitch is great. Instability is gone for good and they are there to munch troops and vehicles. Take no slots with a 0-1, great, now we get 2 daemon princes AND a greater daemon all in one force. Thanks GW, 3 monsters, 3 dreads, 3 defiler stomper armies may be the norm now. Oh, need I mention they cost just 5 pts more then 7 marines? For 4 toughness 6 wounds. Mad I tell ya.
They can still pack a whallop, eternal warrior allows no instant death so we dont have to worry about str 10 now, as they get that Daemonic Rune rule as standard. Wings, marks, psy powers that are godly with wings, what ever your taste may be. He can still do it and do it while remaining cheap.
Dubious but still great in their own way. I wouldnt field them as their own choice but rather gift of chaos a bunch of them in. Random beasts are fun sometimes so I may field a few, but otherwise, perhaps one of the lesser choices if not a spendy "please shoot me" unit that can soak firepower for a turn for you. Unit takes no slots, can be fast and can be great depending on your rolls, just like dreads and possessed.
The loss of mutated hull, not a loss at all. We were not supposed to get leman russes to begin with, or walking predators. This was taken advanatge of, and abused royally. I am sorry to say this but as a high end chaos player I like to see this go.
Losing the other variable things, and legion specific rules was no real loss at all since we can play with generally the same sort of armies as indicated by fluff. Just depends on the player if they want to continue this. Just goes to show that players pick armies by what rules they have compared to what fluff they're allowed. This lets those players play with what they want, with what army they like fluffwise. Sure they may bark and whine about it, but really its a much needed relief from the confines of such rule sets. Play with what you want, and play with what look you want, with all those extra options to make the force you want to play with. Thats what this game is about, and so for people who want to stick with fluff still can. Just those shackles are gone now to let the more deviating players their freedom of choice.
Summary of this:
You got more stuff, and the stuff that wrecked imbalance has been stabilised. We still got overpowering armies in both melee and shooting still, just figure it out. You can still be fluffy if you stick with it. (Read the legion section above if you start complaining about that you lost something)
Tank hunting havocs, spitting cheap lascannon fire or double the krak missiles at a tank is absurd anyways, even if I took advantage of it, I am happy its gone. *sniff*
Also, an undivided build based around icon of glory, or no icon at all can still lead to a decent army. Our marines are superior to theirs as we get melee benefits WITH boltguns, You can pack some chosen, some tanks and still have your 3 ordinance with AV13 on their front. (Think Defiler/Basilisk with mutated hull but cheaper and stronger blasts) Having 3 of them if you prefer.
Either way, you can still field an Iron Warrior army. Just because it doesnt have servo arms and daemonic tank upgrades you agree with, shouldnt be the core of why you play Iron Warriors. You can still pack 9 oblits if you really wanted to. The previous rules they were nerfed to be instant killed by str8 anyways. If your oblits arent supported when they're being shot at by a ton of small arms fire then they should die! Nothing is stopping you from putting the look you want on your models and make due with the rules to play with them. Put 10 servo arms on your daemon prince or something! I'm tired of people griping at an upgrade. Complaining "Everyone can field an army like I want now, poo" Just because a alpha legion army can have the same army composition an iron warrior can field does not mean anything. Alpha legion would come prepared to face the iron warriors if they wanted to fight IW.. Basilisks can be VDR fielded, and thunderhawks need very, very, VERY special harnesses to carry the basilisks around, while those harnesses wont allow the thunderhawk to carry any other CSM vehicle under it, meaning the deddicated transport of a super heavy flier is at one basilisks command. Sounds very stupid to me. If you have a better mention how IW fast-drop basilisks to planetside, please let me know.
I couldnt imaging a Thunderhawk, where a chimera chassis (what basilisks are based from) would suffer the heat being open topped under the thunderhawk, or being broken into pieces to fit inside a thunderhawk. Impractical, only vehicles based off rhino are viable and the land raider under the thunderhawk being carried can withstand the heat on atmosphere entry, not to mention the indentations in the design where thunderhawks CLAMP onto the tanks.
Dont you IW players get it? IW made things more streamlined while not particularly shafting anyone. All of this are just complaints riled up by someone with a decent IQ and 6 hours to type out a review with an arrogant attitude. This codex is powerful with or without icons/marks. Get it guys? Your basic army without icons/marks can field things more powerful then loyalists still. STILL!... Ive faught 8 battles against the old codex with similar builds as close as possible, old codex lost... Not only lost, but lost bad. Even exchanging armies, with me at the helm of old codex, still lost badly. Mostly due to bolters ccw frag krak and pistols being on THE BASIC MARINES. That alone won most of it.
I hope my point has reached across. The old codex is gone, and for good reason. You can still field the army style you prefer, and just because other people can play with the same kind of army does not give anyone permission to blame the codex.
You guys try rolling 20 dice, then have to write them down and do the math... Every roll.. Every turn... For 2 games... A day... For 3 years... I would get sick of warhammer if I had to do that. Think before you speak when blaming the ruleboys. At least consider what they go through when blaming something on them. Ok?
Somehow I think everyone might complain to get me kicked off here after this. If I am, it would be a story the BnC might appreciate. (copy+paste and saved)