Legion Brothers, I need a hand.

40K has started back up in the gaming group and having sold a majority of my stuff I picked up some second-hand Grey Knights. They're ok and if I used them better they'd probably be deadly. However, I just do not like using them.

After talking to my friend, I wanted to rebuild my astral claws but that will be a slow build up. I'd be starting from scratch without a whole lot of financing for them. So, I've decided to go back to my roots instead of waiting for the new Chaos release. I still had plenty of PA and TDA troops left over...and now I need to organize them into a fighting force. This, my brothers and friends, is where help is needed.

This isn't meant to be super competitive...but enough to cut down infantry and be able to take down monoliths, land raiders, razorwings, and other big nasties out there.

so the list:

HQ:
Kharn 165pts

Elites:
Terminators 120pts
(3 terminators, 3 Combi-meltas, 1 chainfist.)
Terminators 120pts
(3 terminators, 3 Combi-meltas, 1 chainfist.)

Troops:
Berzerkers 250pts
(1 Skull Champ with PF. 9 Berzerkers.)
Berzerkers 250pts
(1 Skull Champ with PF. 9 Berzerkers.)

This brings me to about 905 pts. Enough room for two rhino at 70pts together (I just don't own any anymore) and possibly some upgrade? *We are only playing at 1000pts in our group for now.

What I am thinking is, should I drop 1 berzerker in a squad to make room for Kharn in a Rhino? That way my whole army can hustle to the front with the betrayer in tow.

The terminators are going to be used, as its implied by their build, as a termicide squad that I will try to deploy in my enemy's line and hopefully F some stuff up.

With these guys...victory is going to be tough compared to what my opponents have. However, this will be for fun and I'm just going to keep a score card of how many souls have perished from their handiwork, how many skulls they have collected, and how many wrecks they leave upon the battlefield.

So...any pointers? :yes:

it sounds tasty. id try it out see how it works. reading new codexs out there, grey knights what not, your gonna be cut to shreds regardless. we need a new codex asap just to be affective.

your thread hits me hard, my nephew has decided he wants to play but he wants an all worldeater force. im right where you are trying to figure out how to build it effectively. i have a large force of around 150 worldeater berzerker troops, have no idea of the point value, built for the old lady as support for apok games for my iron warriors. but building a 2000 point berzerker army i myself am trying to figure out the best way to do it.

ill defiantly keep watch on your thread to see what people suggest.

love the idea of your kill count, i think im gonna try that. are you gonna keep it an overall score or as a squad or model basis. ive thought about keeping track on squad level and resetting it if the squad is wiped out. sounds fun

I'd say drop one Bezerker, just to fit Kharn in a Rhino. But as Jesseye said, against Grey Knights, you'll struggle no matter what. The only saving grace is Kharn is immune to Psychic Powers.

Also, moving this to the Valleys of Chaos section, for Chaos in general, Legio IV is for Iron Warriors only :thumb:

Yeah, the kill count is a stolen idea :D One guy, whose painting log I was following, was making a Khorne Gore-Wing and instead of counting victories he said he'd count kills.

I'll be doing the same. Each squad and Kharn will get a separate card noting what is killed and how many. *I REALLY want to have an opponent with a guardsmen filled IG army...so...much...meat to cleave through...

As stated a bit earlier, the Termies will be anti-armor and assassins. *Bear with me as I do not really know the rules of 40k at all* They will deepstrike in enemy turf and light up big tanks or if there aren't enemy, take out enemy HQ.

The Berzerker-filled Rhinos will move up. then when the enemy gets close the Berzerkers disembark, move up and get ready for an assault. Making sure to keep over an inch away from Kharn.

Does this sound like a reasonable?

So far, I am the only "shooty" Grey Knights. The other player...she may have an assassin based army. I don't really know as she doesn't get to play much.

and thanks for the move. My mistake blackcell

i like how you said the other player is "she". be careful women can fool you into not knowing the game. their ruthless.

it sounds like a good plan, but with kharne its all about kill kill kill lol. you know above the kill count it would be fun and fluffy to add trophies of defeated foes to. add necron heads or what not to your rhino after the game. after awhile itll be covered. that would be awesome.

I've read some nasty thing about Kharn...so I look forward to using him.

With the current dex and some of the background I have made for these guys (check i tout if you can :)), Berzerkers are a good fit. They are unleashed upon a ship to wreak havoc.

I just wonder what will be in the new Legions Dex that will give me a fluffy choice.

As for the trophies, I am going to buy bits of heads/helmets and fishing line. Each time the squad makes a kill, I will drill a hole through the head and add it to the fishing line, like those bead necklaces and such. A very nice visual to show off to everyone haha.

Rhinos are a good idea. Smart IG players will have Chimeras loaded to the brim with guns, and can unleash a lot of anti-infantry fire in a hard to crack bunker.

Don't fall for baiting. Target units with something nearby that you can charge into quickly after, be it an enemy unit or cover. Keep moving your Rhinos up to screen fire and block falling back if your berzerkers defeat their target. The LAST thing you want is to be stranded out in the open.

Be wary of Necrons, that have plenty of ways to escape your units and/or tarpit them.
Dark Eldar can outrun you and pick their battles, and have lots of ways to wither smaller units.
Blood Angels do what you do better, for cheaper, and with a bunch of virtually free abilities.
Grey Knights focus on deathstar units that will chew through your 'zerkers, and even Kharn. Physical assault is perfectly justified if they bring Draigo to a 1000pt game.

Vanilla Marines can be handled depending on their list, stuff like Ironclads will cause you headaches.
You will have a ball against Orks, if they go bike-heavy it will be a bloodbath for both sides.
Tau lack power in smaller lists, ambush any Crisis Suits with your Terminators, and chase the rest of his force around the table to prevent him getting dug in. If he has suits and a Hammerhead with railgun, hug cover like you're glued to it, and still focus on blasting those suits. The hammerhead will gut your Rhinos easily which is bad, but after that he'll rely on fire teams and the suits to wither away your squads with shooting.
Tyranids will just be a war of attrition.

With the rhinos, would it be best to move them up their max distance and disembark the Berzkerers? They will use the rhino as cover (maybe?) from long ranged attacks.

The next turn my boys should be able to move up and then later assault/charge right? Is this the best way to do this, since you cannot assault out of Rhinos?

So far, I have only played 3 40k game with my group.

and thanks for the tips Khargoth, I will be facing a quite a bit of what you have listed. I've already had the fun of trying my Grey Knights against the Necrons and Dark Eldar. One had a bit of a gunline with a tough lychguard unit & monolith while the other army had a razorwing try to blow chunks out of my force then getting their elites to my guy with transports to hack stuff up.

khargoth your always informative. i myself havent played much against the new armies, just generic marines, older necron, orks and imperial gaurd. no one round here even touches dark eldar. we forbid grey knights. however im gonna be joining a club soon, have no idea what to expect. im rhino heavy so i guess im dead in the water unless i change that. so is hush right to drive max distance and disembark or use as moving cover? i always stay onboard till i get to my objective but with new codexs sounds suicide

Rhino's are god-sendt. They're average fast, pack a deadly cargo, and can act as a mobile bunker with an Iron Warrior sporting a heavy weapon popping up from the fire point and act as a temporarly "turret".

If THAT'S not enough, the Rhino also has the life-saving "Repair" rule, meaning that if it's immobilised, the Rhino Crew may attempt a repair in their shooting phase (which off course stops the Rhino from shooting) and on a D6 roll of 6, the immobilised Rhino is repaired and can roam free again.

I'm definitely going to invest in a Rhino or two (I'm hoping to sell off my GK stuff...so i'll have some cash to offer up as sacrifice to Chaos)! I got in two games today and I think they would have been nice to have, even as mobile cover.

I played the list above, but instead of Rhinos I brought a Dread (My friend let me use his). So a short review:

My first game was against Necrons. Their monolith wiped out 8 Berzerkers in a single go. My other squad of Berzerkers, honored to have Kharn leading them, wounded the hell out of a lychguard unit with lord over two or three turns, but only two were ever felled while the rest kept getting back up. The dread was innefective as was the deepstriking Termicide squads. I conceded after Kharn was killed fighting the lychguard and lord.

My second game was against Space Marines. I lost the dread really quick to drop-pod sternguard. This unit, the drop pod, and later 3 marines were killed by one berzerker squad. My other squad, again honored with going into battle with Kharn led to the eventually slaughter of an assault terminator squad led by a TDA chaplain (whom Kharn personally killed). This game ended in a draw with 4-4 kill points.

Having played this, I think I want to try this as a revised list:
HQ
-Kharn 165

Elite
-Termicide 120
1 chainfist, 3 combi-meltas

Troops
-Berzerkers 229
1 champ, power fist,
8 regulars
-Rhino 35

-Marines 185
1 champ
1 melta
1 missile launcher
7 regulars
-Rhino 35

Heavy
Obliteraors 225
x3

Total 994

Any ideas or criticisms?

Seems solid, my only suggestion is maybe split the Obliterators into three squads of one, or one of two and one alone? Just opens things up tactically, letting you tackle multiple vehicles at once?

Alright, that would be a good idea just in case I have to deal with several pieces of armor. Yesterday my buddy with the space marines had two predators (autocannon and bolter sponsons) holding down his half of the board among some other transports. The only real problem I have was that my guys sucked at deepstriking near him but having Obliterators, using a lascannon, would probably have been more effective.

And having mentioned Predators, do many use the Chaos version? From what I can see, ours is just more expensive. Is there any other downside to it? The current list I have does not have room for one but with some rework I could probably bring one in.

theres no real downsize to predators. their great tanks, very underused. weve had discussions on them before pretty recently. of course grey knights will kill them easy but hey what wont they tear apart leaving you screaming am i gonna get a turn

I do like the look of them and had thought of using one (when I still had my tanks). All I noticed was that an autocannon with bolter sponson version costs 15pts more for chaos (if I remember correctly). I just wasn't sure I was missing something that made them so underused. I do remember reading about the downside of CSM Land Raiders compared to their Loyalist counterparts but couldn't really recall.

The idea I am having is if I have some I could swap out the 3 Obliterators for a predator and vindicator.

As for their durability...every other army seems to have something to crack open armor or wipe our the masses of bodies. So...I just have to seize the initiative and get in the first punches :yes:

Kobra Kai Style: Strike First, Strike Hard, Show No Mercy!

i'd probably keep one of the obliterators and trade the other 2 for a vindicator w/ possession which saves you 5pts for a personal icon/meltabombs??
the vindi WILL be target priority number 1 but its fairly durable especially w/ possession ignoring shaken & stunned!
plus its large blast for anti horde and st 10 ordanance for anti tank!!

at 1k points level if your opponent is shooting your vindi he isnt shooting your rhinos!

the chaos versions of everything is more expensive or not as good or both due to matt ward overpowering everything he writes as well as changing fluff to suit him. if gw would fire him i feel they would regain some of their loyalty from older players, he disgusts me

i'm not convinced on the whole loyalist stuff is cheaper thing - i must point out at this stage tho that i dont have a space marine codex - that being said -

a predator comes with an autocannon turret for **pts (check codex for actual points values)
if you add heavy bolter sponsons and a havoc launcher thats still under 130pts! i dont think the loyalists are that much cheaper!!

i do have a gripe about their vindis getting a seige shield which when modelled looks exactly the same as our dozer blade and costs the same!!

but we're better so i dont care if theirs is cheaper - makes me feel better when we win!!

iron within brothers

I haven't used a Predator for Chaos. A big problem is that Heavy Support has so many other juicy options they get overlooked. Obliterators, Vindicators, Defilers, Land Raiders and Havocs all want those slots just as much as Preds.

@Thanatos Ares: A predator with its base autcannons and bolter sponsons cost 100pts for Chaos and 85pts for Loyalists.

Every other stat looks the same between the two just one, when both are kitted out the same, is cheaper.

I'm bummed out this current dex having to pay more for something that's exactly the same but that wasn't my big issue. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some rules, errata, or FAQ that gimped ours compared to the loyalist.

I really want a Predator now...I'm starting to favor the idea of an Iron Warrior Tank Commander. I also want to get a trio of Vindicators too. I like the ida of a line breaker. However, either one presents itself as a big target to combi-melta suicide sternguard squads, a nasty dark eldar flier, and a monolith. Like I said though...I'll always try to get in the first punch!

An as you brought upblackcell, there actually are some other options that seem very tantillizing. I have been wondering about how to arm a Havoc squad recently for some all-round effectiveness (anti-armor and anti-infantry).

Siege shields are only any good when playing against crons and they pull that 'THE WHOLE TABLE IS LAVA' stunt.

Predators are still awesome bang for buck, spitting out six HB and two AC shots can blow huge holes in infantry squads. Even tougher stuff falls to the weight of fire.

Unfortunately your World Eaters list is less, well World Eaters if you go with Vindicators, Obliterators and even normal CSM squads. Your one advantage is that Berzerkers are fairly cheap. I'd go with your original list, with the two Rhinos; drop one Berzerker to make room for Kharn, and maybe give the other a Havoc Launcher for some extra dakka.

I never had to mess with the "THE WHOLE TABLE IS LAVA" fortunately. In fact, I do not even know what that is. I do deal with a monolith that wipes out units in a single go. I also need a better way to cut down Lychguards, those things keep getting back up (thanks to a Lord I think).

Khargoth: My list is an Iron Warriors list, using Berzerkers as a storm trooper count-as. With my fluff, the Berzerker count-as are trench warfare specialists who raid and clear out enemy held positions. I like it because reading IW background it did state that the Iron Warriors were very fierce close-quarter combatants, rivaling World Eaters and Blood Angels. So this list isn't meant to really represent World Eaters. So I do not mind long range ordanace from armor, as that puts this army more in line with Iron Warriors ranged capabilities, I think. Plus, it adds a nice punch!

Kharn is just being used because I like his stats (and the fact that he is a wildcard). Maybe later I will try to come up with a decent lord to take into combat so I am not using a World Eater character.

The 'whole table is lava' thingy is an annoying trick the necrons can do (hey i play necrons and even i find it kinda lame :P )
its just a combo with a special character and a C'tan
character makes the whole table dificult terrein and the c'tan makes difficult terrein dangerous (or dangerous more deadly)
lets see a horde army move turn 1 <_< 1/6 of your army can die just by moving on the first turn

Lychguard are actually pretty arse. The wording of the Saves rules specifically mentions that you have to take your best save, even if you'd prefer to use another. That means you can only use that shield reflect power against AP3 and better weapons. Just hose 'em with bolters. The Void blade is only any good against mutli-wound models, and you don't get any bonus to your Attacks from the shield, which makes them a very mediocre assault unit. They're rock hard if you're dumb enough to charge them with power-weapon wielding Assault units, but why bother when you can paste them with missile launchers?

Warscythes are ok, but you should really treat them as a squad of Chainfists rather than a bodyguard unit. Keep an eye out for canny players who do this.

Triarch Praetorians with particle casters and void blades are the ones to watch out for. Jump Infantry with 3A on the charge and one hell of a pistol salvo, that can also scrap tanks if they lay into them. Their only real weakness is they'll have a 5+ reanimation save since it's impractical to put a Necron Lord with them.

I might be going against this unit (the Lychguard) again tonight. Most of my games against my Necron opponent boils down into "how many lychguard can I kill" games (and there are only 5 of them). I really just wish there was a way to put them down in one go. It sucks to see 3 of them from a 5 man squad go down...only to get back up again. :(

Also, I have been thinking about throwing a count-as Lucius the Eternal into the ring. Anybody mind sharing some personal opinions on this fella? I like how lash of torment decreases enemy attacks but I am not sure how his shrieking armor comes into play. From his stats, I think I will miss the number of attacks and slightly lowered strength that Kharn has.

The problem with Lucius is that his armour depends on a successful save. Not something to count on if you're in combat with anyone with a Power Weapon. For maximum damage, throw him into combat against the standard Warriors, his 3+ save then will get more kills than against Lychguard. Otherwise he isn't a bad choice, he's quick, has the whip, and the Doom Siren's a bonus.

What are they armed with? Sounds like he's going with the Warscythe version. If so throw your Termicide squads at them. They don't have an invul save so the combi-meltas will wreck their day, and they don't ignore your Invul saves anymore either.

I honestly can't fathom 5 warscythe-armed Lychguard making that big an impact... a Berzerker squad should absolutely bury them in attacks and wipe the unit before they even get to strike!

I got in another game yesterday against my friends Minotaurs (using standard SM dex). It was like 300 with my Berzerker force charging forth from a narrow gorge into a lot of guns...and ended when my last berzerker fell in combat. I only killed a tactical squad (Kharn's doing against a a 10 man unit split into combat squads), 2 predators (termicide) and nearly finished a stubborn sternguard (1 was left). He survived with 1 sternguard, a razorback (or a rhino, I forgot), termie assault squad with terminator chaplain, and a squad of scout snipers. It was a darn good game.

Is this comment about Lucius v. Necrons solely? I'm just asking because it mentions warriors and lychguards specifically. If I get a chance to use him he'll be going against all sorts of scum.

Just like I mentioned before...Kharn's stats & abilities makes more of a direct wrecking machine so I wondered how Lucius was in comparison on the table.

They have the hyperphase swords and a lord who hangs out with them (with a resurrection orb I think). Wounding them isn't my problem...just them coming back/resurrecting is.


I also have a question. There was faq/errata sometime ago changing a lot of stuff for chaos. One was about Plague Marines going up high in point cost. Is that still the case or was this reversed? My friend was looking on GW's site and couldn't find anything about it.

I want to run 7man squads, two meltas, and with a rhino running up to 216 total with whats in the codex. However, if the PM's do cost more point wise...that is going to be a very expensive force.

Yes and no. The comment is about Necrons specifically, but there is a underlying thing. Lucius doesn't fare much better than a regular Lord in combat against Power Weapons. Sure he's faster, higher WS and the Lash, but when compared to a Lord with Mark of Slannesh and Power Weapon, he only does marginally better. He's a Special Character, you're paying the points, he should be better than that! That's where his armour does shine, throw him against the standard Troops. If they don't have a Power Weapon, charge Lucius in! For maximum damage, you want that armour to get a few kills as well, and you want those successful saves to be against your 3+ armour save, not your less reliable 5+ Invulnerable save.

Kharn you can stick him in a squad, and hunt anything, he's got the attacks, the weapon and the rules to happily wade into combat with most things, and fare much better than a Lord. But Lucius, fittingly, requires more finesse. You can't charge him into anything. Pick the weaker squads, those without Power Weapons, to really get good work out of him.

You should be able to bury them with Berzerkers. The trick is to kill the entire unit, once that's done they can't Reanimate. The Lord does NOT count as a surviving member of the unit for the others to Reanimate. High AP/power weapons are okay if you can bring enough of them to bear, as the 4+ invul save is worse, but keep units more than 6" away if you're doing it with shooting.

The mathhammer says that a unit of 10 Berzerkers getting the charge should inflict 7.2 unsaved wounds on a unit of Lychguard.

I definitely see what you are saying. Lucius may get in a game or two but I do see how Kharn is a more versatile choice. I'm also thinking about a Daemon Prince too ^_^

Well, I may get in a game against Necrons this week, so hopefully I can wipe them out with one go. I mean, Kharn and 8 berzkers (maybe 9 if I drop the Power Fist for a good ole chain axe on the skull champ) will get first hits in on the charge should be distributing a lot of hurt.

If I'm doing my math right, Kharn with 9 berzerkers (1 skull champ but no PF) on a charge with the pistol + ccw bonus will have...44 attacks?

Anyways, I should have a new list or two soon. I am wondering how to bring Plague Marines, Berzerkers, and Obliterators together in one army for 1000pts.

kharn + 9 berzerkers in rino
10 plague marines in rhino
2x 2 obliteratos is just under 1k if my math is right
u might need 2 be careful w/ upgrades on the squads tho mate!!

-Kharn

-Olbiterators (2)

-Berzerkers (9)
Champ
Personal Icon
Rhino

-Plague Marines (10)
Melta 10
Melta 10
Personal Icon
Rhino

Total 849

I could easily bring some kind of mix of:
-A 3rd Obliterator
-upgrades to the Rhinos perhaps? Havoc Launchers, Bolters, or Daemonic possession?
-Termicide

Alright, hate to double post but I think this will be the list I will run while waiting for new Chaos releases (We better get something...we better!).


HQ
Daemon Prince 155
-Wings
-Mark of Slaanesh
-Lash of Submission

Elites
Chaos Chosen 130
-melta (x4)

Chaos Chosen 130
-melta (x4)

Troops
Chaos Marines 205
-melta
-melta
-Rhino

Chaos Marines 205
-melta
-melta
-Rhino

Heavy Support
Predator 100
-Heavy Bolter Sponsons

-Obliterator 75

Total 1000

I can also swap out Kharn for the DP and Remove one Chosen squad for my Termicide and still be at 1000pts. However, I'd have to remove a marine so I could give Kharn a ride. I'll have a few points left where I could upgrade something but not a lot.

The idea with this army is to set the Predator and Obliterator up to where they can attack across the board. Their main targets will be enemy armor.

With the Chosen, I will try to use them on the flanks for board control. Run something at them and hopefully they will hold their ground.

CSM with DP or Kharn will push for objectives or go for the kill. The DP will jedi push things away while giving my guys some breathing room for getting out of their rides and setting up. *The Berzkers were awesome but they needed a LR to make good use of them, since they cannot get out of the rhino and assault. The Plague Marines were alright too but pricey in points. With this army I just hope to gun down enemies from a distance before moving in for the kill.

That's it for now. There may be some more tweaking in the future but nothing big. I have everything on this list (plus my termies) except for a predator and the DP. That's probably all I will get for CSM while I sit and pray for new goodies to come with a new release.

I rarely take a DP without a Land Raider to screen it. That said it might work out depending on terrain and such.

Feels the need for more troops and less Chosen. Maybe a 3 man terminator unit for suicide meltas? Honestly I would drop the single Obliterator for another Predator. In smaller games flood AV13 to dilute enemy fire.

I might just rock Kharn for a little while longer and drop a marine to make room for points to add him and for an open seat in a rhino. As I started to write fluff for this army I couldn't find a place for a DP. I might pick up the mini later because it is nice and I want to try and convert it...but that is cash I can put toward a tank (hopefully before the prices hike up).

Do you think I should drop a Chosen squad or both? I would like to keep one for anti tank/flanking duty. Also, my Termicide squad are Darwin Award winners. They do have some impressive kills on their banners BUT that is out-shined by how many times they have deep striked right into a rock formation, manufactorum wall, and even the intended enemy armor target and were cast into oblivion.

I also think two tanks would be nice. I personally want a Vindicator but cannot find the point room to fit one in 1000pts. Plus, a Predator would be a better grab because I quite like the autocannon. In the meantime I am going to keep the Obliterator for fluff reasons and because I had started a conversion for one (I do see how, if I could squeeze 25pts, a predator would be more worthwhile). I really hope they get some new sculpts that look like the Obliterators on the cover of the new IW novel.

Well actually, if you are going the Obliterator route you will need more than one. Having only one is very difficult from my experience, even with smaller games.

In terms of Chosen, it again depends on how you use them. If you are having more luck, then by all means go for it. They will die to enemy fire quite easily as well.

Have you tried DP, CSM w/ Rhino x3, Obliterator x3? Should be around 1000 points, but a tad boring...

Yeah, I used two and have yet to try a game with just one. When I used two I viewed them like artillery pieces but I played them totally wrong. I would deep strike them onto squads with personal icons...when I could have just deployed them at the start and having them open fire from the get go.

I'll see how they are in the future and keep my fingers crossed for new sculpts (or new plastics to convert with).

I think I will like them. My initial idea was for three to four meltas and either one or two flamers respectively. I really want to use them just like a termicide squad, get in and kill armor. I plan on placing them where I expect enemy armor and light it up. A little less risky than deep striking.

I thought about this and my buddy, who just got into CSM with Fallen Angels, runs something similar to this, except no obliterators and with chosen and predators instead. It seemed alright.