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 My Chaos Problem, Why I Won't Be Active
blackcell8
Posted: Feb 13 2011, 11:25 AM


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Not that I've been on much in the past year...

At the moment, with the way 40K is, this forum is dead untill Chaos get a new Codex. Even then, the damage may have been done, I fear. Yes, I am living in the glory days, but then why not? We had a good Codex with a good army. Now our Codex is a broken husk of its former self.

I hate to admit it, but Games Workshop has killed Chaos. This forum died because the current Chaos Codex provides no reason to pick Iron Warriors. Most of the people who were on this forum chose Iron Warriors because of the previous Codex, we had fluff and awesome rules (forgetting the extra Heavy Support and Obliterators).

This Codex feels so underpowered compared to the newer Codexes. But worse then that, it feels shallower then the newer ones. I'm not asking for hideous toys that make you gods on the battlefield, or some ludicrous unit that makes you wonder what the writers were smoking (Marines riding giant wolves, anyone? Deep Striking Land Raiders? The Stormraven!?). I'm just asking for GW to make me want to play Chaos again.

Yes, currently, our Chaos Marines are better then standard Marines. Yes we have cheaper Terminators. Yes we have the Defiler. We have Summoned Daemons and Possessed. But Summoned Daemons are useless, same with Chaos Spawn. Possessed can be good, but its pot luck whether they will be any use to you or not, besides, the Elite slots are hard fought, and Terminators will win I think.

But also our Chaos Lords are underpowered compared to Marine Chapter Masters. Last I checked, Chaos Lords have lived far longer then any mere Chapter Master. Chaos Marines are supposed to be the equals of Marines, but further enhanced with the dark powers. So our units *should* be better then their loyalist equivalents, if more expensive.

Nothing shows this more then our Special Characters. They are a mid-way between 3rd Edition's "Alternate, Fluffy HQ Choice" and 5th Edition's "Army-Changing, Name-Him-Yourself, Extra-Powerful HQ Choice". It's odd to have Special Characters that don't change the way your army is made up. Chances are, if the Codex was redone now, Abaddon would make Chosen, or Terminators, as Troops.

But with the current Marine Codex, you can tell that your playing a Salamanders army, you can tell its a Raven Guard army. The rules reflect that. But at the moment, the only way you can tell an Iron Warriors army from a Word Bearers army is paint scheme. That's it.

I've tried Chaos numerous times since I stopped being active on here. Word Bearers, Death Guard, even Emperor's Children. But the Codex just doesn't make it fun any more.

So, untill the release of a new Chaos Codex, I'm working on my other projects. Tyranids, Hammers of Dorn (1 Company down, 9 to go!), and Orks.


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Loki
Posted: Feb 13 2011, 01:05 PM


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Well.. I hate to admit it, but you're right, Blackcell.. Our codex is a mere mockery of it's former self, our once dreaded legions have been downgraded to mere rogue marines, and the daemons.. well.. I remember the time were a grey knight terminator squad had a point cost equal to a 1.500 pts army.. but then again, they were rock hard.

Seeing that the Imperial lapdog legions got their "own" codexii, I think we might see our own codexii.. well.. at least we could wish..

But I'm not leaving my beloved Iron Warriors.. currently I'm building a truescale Malach Dhar Cerberus Mk.II and his Daemon-Prince form (Basically, a bad-arsed terminator/obliterator..thing..) As well as I've got plans on building som artillery tanks, just in case the Bassie makes a "Iron Warriors only" return in our next Codex.


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jasonxfri13th
Posted: Feb 13 2011, 11:49 PM


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I have a feeling that the next Chaos Codex will contain special rules for separate legions like the last one.
I wish they would simply make a Chaos Codex specifically for special rules for the different Chaos Legions.
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KingOfFools
Posted: Feb 15 2011, 06:28 PM


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I don't even feel that our codex is too weak, it just isn't fun.

on Bell of lost souls there was an article about how to make the CSM codex fun again. there were some ideas, but most of them were restrictions.
IW can't take this, can't take that blah blah.

From that I learned that I don't think that restrictions are the way to make things fun again, at least not in that amount (IW could only take chaos glory).
It needs to be done with all the love , that SW and BA received with new units, new models (new bigger Abbadon would be nice, dread, unique tank variants...) and well thought out rules.


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Kyron
Posted: Feb 16 2011, 07:52 AM


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My friends and I just use the old Siege Specialst rule for all of my IW and I still have the option of a Basilisk and a 4th HS as in the last codex. No restrictions on units however. For example I use the Plague Marines rules for IW with bionics. smile.gif


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The music of death
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Our violins are guns
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Loki
Posted: Feb 16 2011, 09:29 AM


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I would gladly welcome a plastic Chaos Dread with all the options it has in our current 'dex.. or new tanks.. heck, the imperial lapdogs have a bucketload of land raider variants, why shouldn't the legions of chaos have dreaded variants of the predator and land raider? I mean.. 10.000 years in the warp is bound to do SOMETHING to a tank..


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Dreachon
Posted: Feb 16 2011, 10:50 AM


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I have to admitt that I haven't really done much to chaos the last year, even construction of my titans has ground to a halt.
I can only pray that perhaps in 2012 the fires of chaos will once again burn bright.


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blackcell8
Posted: Feb 16 2011, 02:57 PM


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I get the feeling our Codex was a response to the people who complained it was too powerful. So they felt the need to tone down a lot of what made the previous Codex fun.

Chaos Lords: They were awesome, totally customizable, also putting forward that being a Daemon Prince doesn't mean you have to be a monstrous creature.

Chosen: I liked the way they worked before, being able to mix Power Armour and Terminator Armour, and the maximum amount of Chosen dependent on the points limit.

Possessed: Again, customizable. You could turn them into what you wanted them to be.

Marks of Chaos: they allowed you to have a pure Word Eater, Emperor's Children, Death Guard or Thousand Sons army.

Also each Legion had variant rules, all had restrictions, but all had additional rules to compensate. For example, World Eaters could ONLY take the Mark of Khorne, but the upgrade for Aspiring Champions was free if the squad was 8 or 16 men strong.

But now?

Chaos Lord: Generic, a lot more like a Space Marine Captain, basic Wargear, only the (again, generic) Deamon Weapon to make them stand out.

Chosen: Just Infiltrating Chaos Marines. A few extra Special Weapons, but nothing special, hardly worth taking. Terminators in a separate unit choice.

Possessed: Random ability means they become a suicide unit, you only plan to use them to charge at the opponent and do as much damage as you can. Your ability may, or may not actually be any good.

Marks of Chaos: Generic. If you want a pure World Eaters army, you fill your Troops with Khorne Bezerkers, and stick the generic +1 Attack Mark of Khorne on everything else.

And no Legion has any real mention. Nothing to differentiate between them.

Below are what I would change.

Chaos Lord: Same stat-line, but allow Daemonic Gifts back. Not a lot, and nothing game-breaking. Perhaps +1 Strength, +1 Wound, +1 Attack, +1 Toughness and +1 Initiative as separate Daemonic Gifts. But, choosing Gifts means you cannot have a Daemon Weapon.

Chosen: Chaos Marine veterans, with real veteran abilities, so Infiltrate, Furious Charge, Counter Attack, Move Through Cover, and so on. Either let the squad choose one, or make them pay points. Also more freedom with Wargear choices, like letting every member of the squad be equipped differently.

Possessed: Much the same as the previous Codex, let you purchase Daemonic Gifts for the squad, rather than a random choice. Lets the squad become more useful, and people can model specific mutations.

Marks of Chaos: A half-way between this Codex and the last one. In the last Codex, taking a Mark essentially made you part of that Legion, whereas now its a lot more Khorne worship, rather than Word Eater.

Mark of Khorne: +1 Attack, Rage.
Mark of Nurgle: +1 Toughness, Feel No Pain.
Mark of Slaanesh: +1 Initiative, Hit and Run.
Mark of Tzeentch: +1 Invunerable Save (6+ Invunerable if none).

This way, taking a Mark (not an Icon, they suck) becomes much more fluffy, a Khorne worshiper will attack with more ferocity when in combat. But with this, he will also charge head-long into battle, trying to slate his blood thirst.

But also include separate Legion Squads.

Khorne Bezerkers: WS5, Mark of Khorne as above, but also Furious Charge.
Plauge Marines: Mark of Nurgle as above, but also with Relentless, and Blight Grenades (Defensive Grenades).
Noise Marines: Mark of Slaanesh as above, but also Sonic Weapons.
Rubric Marines: 4+Invunerable Save, +1 Wound, Slow and Purposeful, Sorceror as Champion.

This also means you can use a Legion themed list. But not at the expense of all else.

Other changes would be allowing Obliterators to take Marks of Chaos, and revamping the Special Characters to bring them inline with the newer Codex's way of thinking.

In fact, I might start a new thread, rewriting the Chaos Codex to be a lot more fun and balanced...


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Khargoth
Posted: Feb 16 2011, 10:30 PM


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Yeah, nothing new has been said, Chaos players were beating up on their precious 12 year old Loyalist demographic, so we got a nerfing and the Marines got a massive buff.

I've been rolling with my Necrons with some moderate success, Veil lord, Monolith and lots of Destroyers and enjoying the options that level of maneuverability affords. Went against a highly mechanized Emperor's Children force with two Lashes; instead of crashing through my lines like a cannonball, my entire army basically parted like the Red Sea around him and kept hammering his troops with gunfire whenever they disembarked.


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KingOfFools
Posted: Mar 1 2011, 11:40 AM


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blackcell8

I woudn't give Rage to a unit just like that, I would make them roll for it in the beginning of the game or every game turn, because they can get pretty useless if they have to run to the closest enemy every turn. Another possibility would be to give them rage, but to allow them free action if they pass a LD test with a -2 modifier.

I hate my blood slaughterer running around never achieving anything.


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Khargoth
Posted: Mar 3 2011, 02:27 PM


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Honestly I think the old Chaos Lords were fine, it's just the 100pt Wargear limit was poorly worded (for some reason Daemonic Gifts didn't count?) and nobody ever stuck to it. I sorely miss my Chaos Lieutenants, they were fantastic for 1000pt games. Lightning Claws, Daemonic Fire, Daemonic Strength, Furious Charge and Spiky Bits gave you a real budget badass.

I've gone into detail in the past how the new Codex utterly gutted all my favourite units (I still pain at the loss of my 7 man squad with Infiltrate and two Plasma Guns), and all the interesting flavor units I cooked up, like my Lieutenants having personalized gear and my Mecha-Defilers having Mutated Hull to represent their posture and give them a bit of beef.

Anyway, I'm curious to know when Chaos will be next up for updating. There's been a big demand for an updated Codex, and I'm rather irritated to see more Loyalist codicies. But then by the same token the Dark Eldar finally got a revamp, and there's strong rumours that Necrons are being updated in the near future too...


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HATRED IS WHAT DRIVES ME
VENGEANCE IS WHAT CONSUMES ME


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blackcell8
Posted: Mar 3 2011, 06:59 PM


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I think out of all the Codexes, Chaos is one of the most disliked, if not the most.

I think it's little to do with what's in the book (although I've said my piece on that), it's what was in the book before. So much was taken away.

I understand the extra Heavy Support slot being removed, it made sense. I understand removing Basilisks. I can see why they streamlined the way it all worked. But did they have to remove the fun too?

The only way I can look at this Codex is as Codex: Chaos Renegades, not Codex: Chaos Space Marines. The rules focus on newly turned traitors, but the fluff focuses on the Legions?

Look at it like an Astral Claws Codex, and it makes sense. Now if only I liked Astral Claws...


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KingOfFools
Posted: Mar 3 2011, 07:25 PM


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somehow I never heard/read anything about those Astral Claws before this codex.

Anyway it still doesn't quite fit to be a renegades codex. why should fresh renegades use equipment from before the heresy? is there a stash somewhere?


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Khargoth
Posted: Mar 4 2011, 03:06 AM


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It works best as a Black Legion or god-specific Codex.


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BETRAYAL IS WHAT FORGED ME
HATRED IS WHAT DRIVES ME
VENGEANCE IS WHAT CONSUMES ME


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Loki
Posted: Mar 4 2011, 10:27 AM


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The new possessed rules are rubbish.. they are to much of a "wild card" unit that I would actually field them, and our chosen.. well.. I've had minor victories with them flanking the enemy line and bring to bear their 4 plasma/melta guns.

And the Generic Daemon Prince 1.0 that can be slightly modified to become DP 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and so forth? I want modifiable DP's, the same goes for the Lords.. And I hate the fact we are not able to have second in command's.. I mean, Marines have their Captains, Chapter Masters and what not, we.. one friggin' Lord.

I have to agree, our current codex makes a mockery out of our proud legions, heck, in the old one, there were special rules by using one of our infamous legions! Now, our legions are broken down into mere warbands led by generic captain/champion Bob or Suzy. To me, that's like being kicked in the groin without GW having the courtesy of calling it fluff-nerfing. But I have to admit, we currently best those imperial lapdogs considering our chaos marines versus their marines, and our termies are cheaper then theirs, but in the end, how can we cope with a squad of imperial termies that have a 2+ INVULNERABLE save?

Before, Iron Warriors were the only ones able to field Vindicators, Bassies and weren't limited to the 0-1 Obliterators rule, Night Lords could amass numerous squads of Raptors and Bikers, but now? every darned legion can field as many Vindies or Obliterator Cults as there are heavy support slots, our beloved Bassie has dissapeared, and we haven't got any chaos-specific guns, only a bucketload of heresy-era weapons and the odd daemonic weapon that turns on you if you look at it the wrong way.

Also, why the hell are there pictures of hand-held Plasma Cannons and Multi-Meltas on page 82 in our codex when they can't be used by our Havocs? Fluff only weaponry? bah, bollocks. I say since those bastard Imperial dog-chapters get their own codex, it would be approperiate to give our legions their own codexii, or at least a couple of pages in the new codex (whenever THAT may be)..

Edit: by Slaanesh' dirty trousers of lustful doom, I've ascended to Obliterator-hood.. groovy! borgsmile.gif

This post has been edited by Loki on Mar 4 2011, 10:29 AM


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