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 Turbo 3sge Faq, Information guide for turbo altezza
Leiden
Posted: Jul 26 2008, 09:16 PM


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Just thought I'd post a little information I've gathered. Hopefully it will help those who are planning on Turbo'ing their 3SGE Altezza's. If anyone has some information they want to contribute be my guest tongue.gif

Gaskets and Compression:

0.8mm Thick -- 11.5:1 compression -- P/N# 11115-88570 Metal Head Gasket

0.5mm Thick -- 11.9:1 compression
1.1mm Thick -- 11.1:1 compression
1.5mm Thick -- 10.6:1 compression
1.6mm Thick -- 10.5:1 compression
1.8mm Thick -- 10.3:1 compression

You CAN stack metal head gaskets no worries. xnick confirmed that theres a GTR running stacked gaskets at 1.7bar without any problems. The stock metal gasket part number is: 11115-88570 which can be bought for $125. Two of these would give you 10.5:1 compression (0.8mm x 2). Alot cheaper than aftermarket HKS,TRD etc

Fuel:

Standard - 340CC High Impedence, Top Fed, 14.0 ohms

Caldina GTT - 540CC Injectors, they are top fed and same impedence. Direct bolt in, no mods needed. Factory ecu adjusts duty cycle automagically!

You can upgrade the fuel pump using a Supra TT item, possibly the JZA70 chassis?

A Walbro GSS342 pump is an excellent cost effective upgrade. They are cheap too tongue.gif

Handy Tools/Calculators:

Toyota Tech Articles

Turbo Calculator
Injector Calculator
Technical Articles

Electrical Grounding
You CAN Be Running Too Rich
Spark Timing Myths

Tuner Resources

Other:

Retard Timing about 1 degree per PSI of boost.

2JZGTE Pistons will fit with slight machining to the piston skirt for oil squirters, factory 3SGE rings will fit the 2JZ Pistons. 3SGTE rods fit the 2JZ pistons with machining work.

3SGTE rods will not bolt up to 3SGE pistons as they are 2mm wider.
3SGTE rods will however bolt up to the 3SGE crank.

Compression with 2JZGTE pistons and stock headgasket is 9.6:1 which is perfect for good response SAAB boost.

Compression with 3SGTE 3rd Gen pistons is 11.2:1. Not the ideal setup.

The Altezza 3SGE block has oil squirters fitted from factory on the exhaust side.

Turbo Feeds:

Turbo oil feed can be tapped from one of the 3 bungs near the oil filter. This is direct oil pressure so use a 1mm restrictor if using a ball bearing based turbo. With journal bearing turbo's this is less of a problem.

Turbo oil return should be pressure free and as vertical as possible, the return from the turbo can be tapped into the rubber pipe running from the rear of the head on the passanger side down to the block. It will be hidden by a metal plate which can be removed.

Water feeds can be tapped from almost anywhere, a good choice would be the oil cooler on the side of the block under the manifold. Simply tap the outlet to the turbo and then back into the block.

Basic Turbo Tuning with Piggyback:

I've been over at the AEM website hassling the guys with the F/IC and found out a little interesting information, so basically here's what the AEM guys say about getting your very basic turbo basemap sorted.

Note: This is for people with MAP sensors, I'm not sure how you would do it on a solely MAF based engine. I have an H22A map sensor wired into my analog input so that solved it for me.

You need to find the max AFM voltage output at N/A. On my engine it was 3.85V. You then set this value as the clamp voltage in the emanage. Reason is, the stock ecu will now see all the way up to 0 psi relative and your emanage will take over tuning from 0psi relative up to full boost as the ecu will keep fuel relatively the same as the emanage is giving it a fake maf output.

You basically want 125% more fuel at 15psi relative than you do at 0psi relative. Since the ecu is clamped to seeing N/A airflow, the emanage now has to take over from the stock ecu and control boost fueling.

Its pretty easy to setup in the emanage, you scale your load based on MAP output from 0 psi to 15 psi relative. Enter 125% in the 15 psi colums for all RPM conditions then interpolate between 0 and 125% to automatically get the required values.

The emanage maps only go up to 100% more so you will need to enable the second injector correction map and add the extra 25% fuel in there and do the same interpolation to get your values.

Retard ignition about 1 degree per PSI of boost pressure in the Ignition adjustment map and you set to go.

Just note that this is obviously not the ideal way to tune an engine. This basemap is solely for the purpose of getting you to a tuner, its going to run rich and like a pig but the main thing is that your engine wont be damaged.

Alternatively you could just force your wastegate open, drive it to the tuner then close it. Open wastegate = No Boost = Stock Setup.

- - - - - - - - - -

I'll post up some more info when I get the time,

This post has been edited by xnickx on Aug 4 2013, 07:11 PM


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cookie
Posted: Jul 26 2008, 11:25 PM


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So does anyone know or can anyone advise what is an acceptable boost level for a stock 3sge. I am thinking 5-6psi should be safe. I'm not after a huge increase in power, just something to make it even more fun to drive and also it might make the exhaust quieter.
nosrab
Posted: Jul 27 2008, 12:31 AM


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I run 9psi and have had no problems what so ever
xnickx
Posted: Jul 27 2008, 06:47 AM


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You can run up to around 10/11psi on stock internals, but you just need to retard the timing right.

Oh and the injectors from a 3SGTE from Gen 3 3SGE are straight plug and play. They are also 440cc but are high impendance so no mods needed to plug them in!

Also fuel pumps are easy to change around, I went for a Supra TT pump, cost me like $40 from the wreckers!


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Gareth
Posted: Jul 27 2008, 11:56 AM


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Awesome info mate smile.gif
Leiden
Posted: Jul 27 2008, 03:26 PM


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Some more info:

2JZ Pistons fit according to xnick, 3SGE rings fit them too which is a bonus, not sure what compression He'll be getting with these?

Also 3SGTE Rods from the 3SGTE Celica (Assume ST205 GT-Four?) will fit the 2JZ Pistons and 3SGE crank.

Generation 3 3SGTE ST205/ST185 Rod Specs:

Journal: 51mm
Pin: 22mm
Length: 138mm

Anyone know anything about fitting oil squirters?

@xnick: Could you confirm?


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Distrb
Posted: Jul 27 2008, 06:11 PM


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QUOTE (Leiden @ Jul 27 2008, 03:26 PM)
Some more info:

2JZ Pistons fit according to xnick, 3SGE rings fit them too which is a bonus, not sure what compression He'll be getting with these?

Also 3SGTE Rods from the 3SGTE Celica (Assume ST205 GT-Four?) will fit the 2JZ Pistons and 3SGE crank.

Generation 3 3SGTE ST205/ST185 Rod Specs:

Journal: 51mm
Pin: 22mm
Length: 138mm

Anyone know anything about fitting oil squirters?

@xnick: Could you confirm?

Have not long finished putting together a motor with the aforementioned parts

2jzgte pistons wont fit without machining work to the skirt and rebalancing

the 3sgte rods from the ST205 wont fit the 2jzgte piston without machining work to the rod.

compression with 2jzgte pistons and stock head gasket is 9.6:1

Under piston oil squirters are factory fitted and are located to the rear of the exhaust side of the bore
Leiden
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 01:21 PM


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QUOTE (Distrb @ Jul 27 2008, 06:11 PM)
Have not long finished putting together a motor with the aforementioned parts

2jzgte pistons wont fit without machining work to the skirt and rebalancing

the 3sgte rods from the ST205 wont fit the 2jzgte piston without machining work to the rod.

compression with 2jzgte pistons and stock head gasket is 9.6:1

Under piston oil squirters are factory fitted and are located to the rear of the exhaust side of the bore

Ok so 2JZ pistons will need machining work to the skirt, what sort of work was needed and how much was the quote for the work?

Did the 3SGTE rods just need the Pin upsized or was it more than that,

Sounds like a good compression ratio for some high response boost smile.gif

Does the 3SGE DVVTi have oil squirters? I thought these were only fitted to 3SGTE engines?


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xnickx
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 01:27 PM


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Yes some machining would need to be done, not 100% exactly sure what needs to be done.

And again unsure about the rods.

But yes out 3SGE deff has squirters and yes the it on the exhaust side, they changed designs in 2001 or 2002, dont know if they are any better or not though


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Leiden
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 02:28 PM


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QUOTE (xnickx @ Jul 28 2008, 01:27 PM)
Yes some machining would need to be done, not 100% exactly sure what needs to be done.

And again unsure about the rods.

But yes out 3SGE deff has squirters and yes the it on the exhaust side, they changed designs in 2001 or 2002, dont know if they are any better or not though

Do you know if the 3SGTE Gen3 rods would bolt up to the 3SGE?

What about Gen3 3SGTE Pistons?


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xnickx
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 02:50 PM


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I believe (from Corey) that the 3SGTE rods fit the 3SGE without any mods. Corey has 3SGTE rods in his 3SGE



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Barryogen
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 02:50 PM


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The pistons are considerably different shape.

Not to mention, the head... also, adding multiple head gaskets screws with the squish area, and is generally not a good idea for "longevity"
Leiden
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 02:56 PM


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QUOTE (xnickx @ Jul 28 2008, 02:50 PM)
I believe (from Corey) that the 3SGTE rods fit the 3SGE without any mods. Corey has 3SGTE rods in his 3SGE

Are these ST185/ST205 3rd Gen 3SGTE Rods or the narrower 4th Gen?

I saw an auction on trademe with a guy running 3SGTE CP Pistons in his 3SGE Altezza. He complained that when adding boost it would pink badly because the C/R was too high,

As for squish are this is basically just a flat spot on the head so when the piston reaches TDC the air/fuel is forced to the center of the combustion chamber to negotiate a more complete burn, this would only be useful for improving B.S.F.C and since we are turbo'ing the engine a loss in efficiency to achieve better power isn't much of a problem at all.


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roman
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 03:22 PM


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QUOTE (Leiden @ Jul 28 2008, 02:56 PM)
I saw an auction on trademe with a guy running 3SGTE CP Pistons in his 3SGE Altezza. He complained that when adding boost it would pink badly because the C/R was too high,

I wonder if he ditched VVTI, I bet he did.

And NA 3S's had oil squirters from gen 3+, 1994ish
turbo tezza
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 03:27 PM


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QUOTE (xnickx @ Jul 28 2008, 02:50 PM)
I believe (from Corey) that the 3SGTE rods fit the 3SGE without any mods. Corey has 3SGTE rods in his 3SGE

Yea i have 3s-gte rods in my engine.

The thing i had to do was shave some off the width of the rod, where it sits inside the piston because the toda pistons were narrower than the rod.

The guys at caraid said the rods were bloody hard when they machined them.

I didn't know this until they went to put them together.

So Toda low compression pistons and eagle 3s-gte rods won't go together without some minor modification smile.gif

Corey

This post has been edited by turbo tezza on Jul 28 2008, 03:30 PM


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Location: Alexandra at the moment

My Car build-up
Leiden
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 04:06 PM


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QUOTE (turbo tezza @ Jul 28 2008, 03:27 PM)
Yea i have 3s-gte rods in my engine.

The thing i had to do was shave some off the width of the rod, where it sits inside the piston because the toda pistons were narrower than the rod.

The guys at caraid said the rods were bloody hard when they machined them.

I didn't know this until they went to put them together.

So Toda low compression pistons and eagle 3s-gte rods won't go together without some minor modification  smile.gif

Corey

Just wondering what you had to machine to get them to fit the toda pistons, here's a little reference pic:

user posted image

So you had to machine 'D' in the picture to fit into the toda piston?

How much did you have to shave to get it to fit? Do you know if the toda pistons will fit the stock 3SGE rods or will these need to be machined also?

As a side note, how is the stock J160 gearbox managing to handle to increased power output? Any problems to be reported guys?

QUOTE (xnick)
You can run up to around 10/11psi on stock internals, but you just need to retard the timing right.


Is this with stock compression?


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Distrb
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 04:25 PM


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QUOTE (Leiden @ Jul 28 2008, 01:21 PM)
Ok so 2JZ pistons will need machining work to the skirt, what sort of work was needed and how much was the quote for the work?

Did the 3SGTE rods just need the Pin upsized or was it more than that,

Sounds like a good compression ratio for some high response boost smile.gif

Does the 3SGE DVVTi have oil squirters? I thought these were only fitted to 3SGTE engines?

The 2JZGTE piston skirt needs to be machined to clear the under piston oil squirter on the 3SGE block, as the 2JZGTE underpiston oil squirter is located on the inlet side of the bore at the rear, as opposed to the exhaust side at the rear on the 3SGE. Also you have to rebalance the piston as you've unbalanced it by taking weight off one side. Cost a couple of boxes of beer to have done. Most of the time was taken up by dummying it all up in the block to make sure no more than enough was taken off.

The rods were the same story as what happened to corey. Had to machine the small end of the rod down so it will fit in the piston, ended up taking approx 1mm off either side.

Should be a good compromise between response and power. Just hope the turbo can flow enough to make use of that compression.
Barryogen
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 04:36 PM


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seems like a lot of time/effort spent doing stuff when off the shelf items aren't that dear anyway.
Leiden
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 04:39 PM


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QUOTE (Distrb @ Jul 28 2008, 04:25 PM)
QUOTE (Leiden @ Jul 28 2008, 01:21 PM)
Ok so 2JZ pistons will need machining work to the skirt, what sort of work was needed and how much was the quote for the work?

Did the 3SGTE rods just need the Pin upsized or was it more than that,

Sounds like a good compression ratio for some high response boost smile.gif

Does the 3SGE DVVTi have oil squirters? I thought these were only fitted to 3SGTE engines?

The 2JZGTE piston skirt needs to be machined to clear the under piston oil squirter on the 3SGE block, as the 2JZGTE underpiston oil squirter is located on the inlet side of the bore at the rear, as opposed to the exhaust side at the rear on the 3SGE. Also you have to rebalance the piston as you've unbalanced it by taking weight off one side. Cost a couple of boxes of beer to have done. Most of the time was taken up by dummying it all up in the block to make sure no more than enough was taken off.

The rods were the same story as what happened to corey. Had to machine the small end of the rod down so it will fit in the piston, ended up taking approx 1mm off either side.

Should be a good compromise between response and power. Just hope the turbo can flow enough to make use of that compression.

Ok to confirm, the skirt just needs to be machined so the oil squirter can do its job properly, rebalancing due to the uneven weight distribution. Do you know how much needed to be taken off?

Do you know if these were VVTI 2JZ pistons? They have smaller rods compared to the non VVTI 2JZ's

Which turbo are you using? I'm going with the TD04L-13T which is used on the Subaru Forester. It flows 390CFM @ 14.7 PSI which should be good for low/midrange torque which is what I'm really after. Rated to 300HP. Street not Drag smile.gif

Aparently hits full boost about 2700RPM which would be great!

QUOTE (barryogen)
seems like a lot of time/effort spent doing stuff when off the shelf items aren't that dear anyway.


Its not so much that its more a good reference for those that are willing to get into the nuts and bolts side of things, the back yard mechanics inside everyone tongue.gif


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xnickx
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 04:53 PM


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I'm just using the run off the mill Greddy specced TD04H-16T, not 100% sure on the specs and A:R on that turbo though (yet)


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Leiden
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 05:27 PM


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QUOTE (xnickx @ Jul 28 2008, 04:53 PM)
I'm just using the run off the mill Greddy specced TD04H-16T, not 100% sure on the specs and A:R on that turbo though (yet)

Here's the specs on your turbo xnick:

MHI TD04H-16T Flow Map

Its rated at 435CFM. Made by MHI/IHI (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries). Slightly larger than my 13T. Specs are:

TD04H 1.735 inducer, 2.042 exducer (in inches), 0.81 A/R
TD04L 1.62 inducer, 1.86 exducer (in inches), Not sure about my A/R

We have the 'T' compressor wheels which are similar to the 'G' series but are more aggressive in trim. TD04 wheels (inducer/exducer) are all interchangable. So a rebuild kit for a TD04 will also work for a TD04H/TD04L


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turbo tezza
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 06:27 PM


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QUOTE (xnickx @ Jul 28 2008, 04:53 PM)
I'm just using the run off the mill Greddy specced TD04H-16T, not 100% sure on the specs and A:R on that turbo though (yet)


Yea it was 'D' measurement. Don't know how much they took off.

Gearbox is fine, seems to be handling the power. Might have to look at things when I up the boost to around 15 psi or so. I'll tell you when it happens. wink.gif

I have one of these turbos sitting around - just needs a wastegate actuator as the one off the turbo is on my car.

I also think Greddy tweek them a bit so they go pretty well on the 3s-ge engine in the altezza.

Are the mhi/ihi turbo 3 bolt or 4 bolt exhaust manifold flanges?

As Greddy Td-04H have the T25/28 nissan manifold flange pattern.

http://www.trust-power.com/overseas/products.html Look under turbo charger data.

Thats why i'm running a garrett 2571R plain bearing turbo on my car now. Good for 440 hp and still has good response.

Corey.

This post has been edited by turbo tezza on Jul 28 2008, 06:34 PM


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Location: Alexandra at the moment

My Car build-up
Leiden
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 07:03 PM


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QUOTE (turbo tezza @ Jul 28 2008, 06:27 PM)

Yea it was 'D' measurement. Don't know how much they took off.

Gearbox is fine, seems to be handling the power. Might have to look at things when I up the boost to around 15 psi or so. I'll tell you when it happens. wink.gif

I have one of these turbos sitting around - just needs a wastegate actuator as the one off the turbo is on my car.

I also think Greddy tweek them a bit so they go pretty well on the 3s-ge engine in the altezza.

Are the mhi/ihi turbo 3 bolt or 4 bolt exhaust manifold flanges?

As Greddy Td-04H have the T25/28 nissan manifold flange pattern.

http://www.trust-power.com/overseas/products.html Look under turbo charger data.

Thats why i'm running a garrett 2571R plain bearing turbo on my car now. Good for 440 hp and still has good response.

Corey.

Ah so xnicks rated at 320HP, 20 more than mine, I'd love to dyno him some time haha.

15psi sounds wicked, what other work have you done to the motor to support this sort of power?

Are you talking about the turbine inlet or outlet flange? The inlet flange on the Subaru IHI turbo I have is the 3 bolt triangular flange, I'd assume xnicks TD04H would use the T25 exhaust housing or quite possibly the T3 flange being resold by Greddy.

MHI factory turbo's use the 4 bolt square flange, not sure if its T2 or T3?

Have a look at this, its got most of the flanges available with specs etc: Turbo Flanges


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Distrb
Posted: Jul 29 2008, 09:15 AM


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QUOTE (Leiden @ Jul 28 2008, 04:39 PM)
Ok to confirm, the skirt just needs to be machined so the oil squirter can do its job properly, rebalancing due to the uneven weight distribution. Do you know how much needed to be taken off?

Do you know if these were VVTI 2JZ pistons? They have smaller rods compared to the non VVTI 2JZ's

Which turbo are you using? I'm going with the TD04L-13T which is used on the Subaru Forester. It flows 390CFM @ 14.7 PSI which should be good for low/midrange torque which is what I'm really after. Rated to 300HP. Street not Drag smile.gif

Aparently hits full boost about 2700RPM which would be great!

QUOTE (barryogen)
seems like a lot of time/effort spent doing stuff when off the shelf items aren't that dear anyway.


Its not so much that its more a good reference for those that are willing to get into the nuts and bolts side of things, the back yard mechanics inside everyone tongue.gif

Have you seen the cutout on a piston skirt for underpiston squirters? Have a look at a factory piston out of a 3sge/gte and it will give you a good idea of what is required. Not much over a standard cutout needs to be removed.

These are pistons from a Non VVT-I 2JZGTE. Please specify whether you mean 2JZGTE or 2JZGE, as there is a slight difference between the two and you might mislead those you are trying to inform wink.gif

Am using the HKS version of the Garrett GT2871R with a 52 Trim and a .64A/R. Should spool pretty quick, and not choke up high in the revs.


QUOTE (barryogen)
seems like a lot of time/effort spent doing stuff when off the shelf items aren't that dear anyway.


It is alot of time and effort. However I dont NEED forged internals. Nor do i want the compression level they give, or to pay the price they cost when there are cheaper alternatives to deliver what i want.
Leiden
Posted: Jul 29 2008, 01:45 PM


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QUOTE
These are pistons from a Non VVT-I 2JZGTE. Please specify whether you mean 2JZGTE or 2JZGE, as there is a slight difference between the two and you might mislead those you are trying to inform wink.gif


For arguments sake we'll keep it to the GTE versions of the motors (2JZGTE, 3SGTE) stronger parts, lower compression etc. Authough wikipedia states:

CODE
The block, crank, and connecting rods of the 2JZ-GE and 2JZ-GTE are the same with the exception that the 2JZ-GTE has oil squirters installed in the block to aid in cooling the pistons.


Which is strange? But we'll keep it all to the factory turbo versions.

Ok so you were using the non vvt-i 2JZGTE pistons which have slightly larger rods than the vvt-i version and the 3SGTE rods still needed machining to fit the 2JZ piston.

Thats great, so 2JZGTE pistons will fit with machining to the skirt for the oil squirters and rebalancing, and the 3SGTE rods will fit with machining to the 'D' part of the rod (width accross pin end).

Sounds like a good choice of turbo, let us know how it all goes.

What are you doing for a manifold? Custom made or are you using a cast iron manifold?


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