One of the hardest things in life we are asked to accept is change. When things don't work you must change your course of action. But sometimes things are fine the way they are. In other words one should not fix what is not broken; which brings me to DC Comics and their "repairing" of Nightwing.

For those of you who are unaware, Nightwing and Robin are one and the same.
Very recently Writers Chuck Dixon and Scott Beatty have returned to the Nightwing comics to do a 6 part "Nightwing Year One" storyline to stall for time in the Nightwing comics so Batman can be alone during the early aftermath of War Games. How does this butcher us R/S fans? Well to answer that question we must look at Nightwing's history before Dixon and Beatty "fixed" him.

Before Dixon and Beatty's Year One crap was published, Robin had one of the best origin stories in all the DC Universe.

Somewhere between the age of 8-10 years old, Dick Grayson's (Robin) parents were murdered by crime boss Tony Zucco. Bruce Wayne was in the audience at Halley's Circus during the tragedy and took pity on Grayson. After saving Grayson from Zucco's men as Batman, Bruce took him to the Batcave and revealed himself as Bruce Wayne and offered to train the boy to find Zucco. After finding Zucco, Grayson got to beat him up a little before Zucco had a heart attack. This is perhaps the only area wher Grayson's life is less tragic than Batman's; unlike Batman, Grayson found and partially killed his parents' killer. Soon afterwards, Grayson took the name Robin, a nickname he earned from his mother. On his first year as Robin, Grayson almost died at the hands of Twoface who savagely beat him with a crowbar before Batman arrive and took him out. Batman decided that it was too dangerous to have a partner and fired Grayson. Eventually, Grayson manged to change Batman's mind and once again resuemed his role as Robin.

At the Age of 18, The Joker shot Robin in the arm. It was not even fatal but Batman still fired him and told him there would no longer be a robin. So here we have a kid who watches his parents die, get adopted by perhaps the meanest hero in the DC Universe, and have the closest thing he had to a father kick him out of the house for no good reason. Grayson was headed straight for the dephts of Hell in the self-esteem department. But forturnalty, it was at that time that Raven summoned a group of heros together that we know as the Teen Titans. Here Grayson felt right at home. But Batman, ever the nagger, said that if you want to be a vigilante, thats fine, but you can't be Robin. So grayson went to someone who could help;Superman. Superman told Robin about a Kryptonian who was tossed out of his family and fought for justice named...Nightwing. Grayson took the name and fell deeply in love with the beautiful Tameranian Starfire. Unfortunately, Starfire was called back to her planet for a political marrage. That ruined their relationship but they made up and if it weren't for Mirage and the Titan's Hunt incident, They would have gotten married, but again, fate was out to stab Grayson in the heart.

And to add salt to the wound, Batman, even though he told Grayson there would be no more robins, finds a kid named Jason Todd stealing tires off the Batmobeal, and makes him Robin. This shreds what was left of their father son relationship. It didn't help either that Jason was killed by the Joker. Grayson did not have too big of a problem with Tim Drake becomeing the 3rd Robin. But Bruce Wayne totally destroyed his relationship with Grayson when Bane broke his back. Instead of choosing Nightwing to replace him, he chooses a newbie named Jean Paul Valley AKA Azrael. After Azrael was taken down by a healed Bruce, he passed the mantle to Nightwing and thought things over. It was here that Father and the Prodigal Son made ammends.

So How does any of this have anything to do with DC's Nightwing Year One and how its killing us R/S fans? Well co-writer Scot Beatty said something along these lines on the DC Message Board

"We acknoledge Kory (Starfire) in our story and Dick(Nightwing) loves her or at least he thinks he does but Babs (Oracle) is his true soulmate."

That is utter CRAP!!!!!
Our only hope rested within Chuck Dixon the other writer of the story but unfortuanately, he agrees with Beatty. In fact in Nightwing 25 (Written by Chuck Dixon), Robin (Tim Drake) asked Nightwing about his relationship with Starfire Here is what he said

"Kory...answered a need I had at that time for affection."

Very well written Dixon!! With eleven words you chopped, torched and urinated on the ashes of Marv Wolfman's ten years of literary work for the good of all DC!!

If we accept what Dixon insists is true than there was never really a love affair between Robin and Starfire. It was nothin more than "I was lonely and I needed some one." Out goes the half of the tragedy in Nightwing's life because after all, I just lost an affectionate friend to political marrage not a real love of mine!!

Maybe I'm over reacting, maby Nightwing just said that to have the last word with Drake but that does not account for Beatty's answer.

But perhaps an even bigger crime that theses two idiots are commiting is the way they changed the reason Nightwing was fired. "You are not devoting 100% of yourself to the War on Crime." That is the Year one reason! That is mildly understandable. Batman requires 100% and nothing less. So not giving your best is a good reason to be fired. But in this better reason to be fired, Dixon and Beatty have destroyed another reason for Grayson to be angry with Bruce. Grayson could be angry at Bruce for fireing him for getting shot in the arm when he receieved worse beatings at the hands of two face. But he can't be justifyibly mad at Bats for firing him for not devoting 100% of himself to the War on Crime.

So thankyou Chuck Dixon, thankyou Scott Beatty you two have destroyed the greatest pairing in the DC universe as well as the Backstory of a character that did not need to be fixed. I hate you and you lost all previeous repsect I had for you guys!

ARE YOU F'ING SERIOUS? Bab's and dick soulamates, WTF?!?! I can't belive they're gonna chop star and rob's whole relationship to CRAP!!!! They certaintly lost my respect... Why the hell would robin stay mad at batman for so long because he didn't give 100%... that is utter bull! These guys suck and whats worse is that DC gave these a**wads permission to do this crap... for shame.. :angry:

:eek: I am MAD. THOSE DC GUYS ARE...UGH!!!!!!!! :mad:

:DW:

ugh... Nice going people.

And Even bab's herself said what she and dick had was puppy love, star and rob was the real thing... These guys are such dicks!

:rolleyes: when will they learn? they are lucky that i am not sugar high...or they'd have issues(have an issue? here's a tissue)

I wouldn't worry about it. The DC comics have little or no effect on the show itself. Comics tend to not follow a direct storyline and seem to go into ulternate universes and such, so basically anything can happen. Just be thankful that they're not doing anything like this to the show.

:) Yes let us all be thankful for that

I still don't like that idea though. Those guys are complete a**clowns. If anyone is right out of who should be with who, it's the fans. They know what everyone in the whole world wants to see; Robin & Starfire kissing, getting married, and having kids. Who cares if it isn't part of the whole comic storylines. I mean look at the people they bought into the shows. I mean Mumbo Jumbo, Control Freak, Johnny Rancid, Larry the Titan, Red X, Kitten, Killer Moth; now someone tell me that they can't put in those little things that the fans want to see and have the power to put in their own creations into the show?

Eh, not particularly bothered. JJJ's right on the money. Comics tend to make alternative storylines and whatnot. At any rate, Babs ends up marrying Batman somewhere along the DC-verse and then of course, there's Dick and Kori's kid. Lol.

Anyway, if we were really going to follow the comics, you have to remember that Dick and Kori didn't exactly end up together, kid or no kid. So yeah, we're all kinda winging it. :p

Agreed. Besides, the cartoon show is not showing us the same blunt stuff as the graphic novels. Notice that I said graphic novels and not "comic books" because many of those things are not for the kiddies. The D.C world has included drug abuse, brutal violence, rape, gory deaths, and all of those wild things.

Regardless of who Robin truly loves, I've read the original TT comics and he almost married Kory, had Raven not been possessed by evil forces and crashed the party. . . but that's another story.

Remember that Barbara/Babs/Batgirl was there from the start. True, I believe she was Robin's first crush since they met back in Gotham when he started crime fighting. True, he said that she was the first person "to make my heart sing".

However. . . that was the "first" person and Kory may still have a chance of being his everlasting love. In a recent issue of the "Teen Titans" graphic novel (which has a storyline diff than the cartoon show: they have Kid Flash, Rose, etc) the Titans travel to the future and Starfire is told that she has a wonderful life somewhere safe with Richard from the troubled times ahead. So there's still hope.

This belongs in the "Robin and Starfire Discussion" forum.


mod, may you move this?

Excuse me, but WTF?

In what alternate future have Batman and Batgirl gotten married?

For the record, in the pre-crisis world of Earth 2, Batman married Catwoman and had a daughter, who became the original Huntress.

There's also repeated leanings of Batman and Catwoman throughout DC history (including a possible hint in the Titans Tomorrow arc with references to what were Catwoman's and Batman's tombstones)... and before Starfire was even created, Dick had a history with BOTH Batgirls (the first one, Bette Kane, was later retconned into being Flamebird from the start).

Technically Dick and Barbara go way back.

For the record though, going back to the Titans Tomorrow arc, apparently something may start up between Tim and Bette XD

Oh, and as to Nightstar, technically her future ceased to exist when Donna Troy's ex-husband and son died (he was a major part of the future "team" - along with Nightstar, Flash 3's daughter, and Arsenal's daughter). If she comes to exist, she won't exactly be the same character as created originally.

Frankly, a lot of what's going on currently is a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing... Nightwing's origin has already been re-written once before (after the crisis). Originally he didn't get fired - he quit. Odds are it'll all get retconned again after things don't work for the next major crisis.

Oh, and I did mention before, the current trend is to keep all "Bat Family characters" together. Starfire isn't part of the Bat Family, but Oracle is. I think they haven't quite figured out whether or not Flamebird is "Bat Family" or "Titans Family" (which is why she hasn't appeared in Toon Titans yet - she's originally a Batman character, with a name derived from Superman, but has primarily appeared in relation to Titans.

We've had a huge problem since the 80's and the "Crisis on Infinite Earths." Previously, when the main characters were "getting too old," they restarted the entire universe and relegated those versions to an alternate earth. For example, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc were mainstays of comic books in the 1940's. They fought villains of World War 2. However, time was passing. Eventually they "restarted" the world - this world became "Earth 2". In the new world, the heroes started over. Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman began anew. A new Flash came onto the scene (a totally different character from the first), as did Green Lantern. This world became "Earth 1." While all the heroes on Earth 1 were young and with the times, on Earth 2, Superman married Lois and they grew old together. Batman married Catwoman, had a daughter, and both died (Dick Grayson remained Robin). Wonder Woman married Steve Trevor and had a daughter. Etcetera. Other heroes could exist on other worlds, without the worlds overlapping. One world's heroes were Captain Marvel and the rest of the Marvel family. On another world, Lex Luthor was the hero, the Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman equivalents were the evil villains.

Sometime in the 80's, DC decided to merge and eliminate the multiverses. Duplicate heroes were killed off, rebooted, or revised. Earth 2's Huntress and Robin died, Wonder Woman went to live on Mount Olympus, and Superman and Lois went to a paradise-like dimension. Earth 1's Supergirl was killed off (leaving Power Girl, Earth 2 Superman's cousin, who was later rebooted, revised, rewritten, etc). Wonder Woman was rebooted, and her mother, Queen Hippolyta, was "retconned" into being Wonder Woman during World War 2 (this led to the intial screwing up of Wonder Girl/Donna Troy).

Now, where does this fit in with the latest Dick Grayson "updating"? Well, the idea is that the "major heroes" should not be past a certain age. Wonder Woman, Batman and Superman should always be no older than late 30's. On the other hand, you have characters like Dick Grayson and Gar Logan, who have been around for over 40 years. They started out as teens. Slowly the characters have been aging. Where does that leave the older heroes? In 65 years, Dick Grayson has aged only 10-12 years. Gar has aged about 8 years over 40 years. The last 25 years of comic history have really only encompassed 4 or 5 years of "time."

What does the comic company do when they can't just "start over a new universe" like they used to? There used to be a 20 year or so age difference between Batman and Robin, but now it's probably about 10. The only thing they can do is keep re-writing character origins to make everything fit together nicely. In the re-writes, things are going to get hacked and slashed, and that all depends on the mentality driving the company.

If anyone's ambitious enough, go to http://dcu.smartmemes.com/ to get a taste of how convoluted comic history is. Dick Grayson and Gar Logan are considered 2 "benchmark" characters on the aging, based on how long they've been around and how little their primary origins have changed since the first.

They don't care "what everyone in the whole world wants to see" (and obviously, I and a few million other people don't exist, because either we couldn't care less about what happens between Dick and Kory, or else they have no interest in or knowledge of anything Titans related - never make broad statements like that which can easily be shot down).

If DC really cared what fans thought, they wouldn't have let John Byrne reboot the Doom Patrol and throw out an integral part of Beast Boy's history... or at least they would have cancelled and retconned that atrocity by now, instead of making us endure Byrned Patrol until Byrne's contract ends at issue 18....

Hooray, more useless arguing! The comic universe really has no bearing on the cartoon universe so please don't take it seriously. We're not going to see Batgirl on the show any time soon so don't feel threatened by this.

Sorry Sir, but This was boiling into a rage and I had to let it out lest I disassemble a near by object with my bear hands before leading a vengence campaign to DC's HQ

Just for the record, emailing, writing, and threatening comic companies does NOT work when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Besides, Barbara's far down on the list of characters to appear in Titans - technically she never WAS a Titan. Batgirl 1, now Flamebird, has a better chance of showing anyways (once they figure out whether she's officially "Bat Family," "Titans Family," or, due to her name, "Superman Family" ). I would just hope they don't turn her into the good girl equivalent of Kitten....

Eh, frankly, it surprised me, when I heard about it. I'll go look for the source but two people I know have already confirmed this. Let me just find the references.

It's not the Titans Cartoon or the Titans comics that I'm worried about, I'm angry that they have destroyed Nightwing as a character!

Some of the powers that be have ceased to care... otherwise they wouldn't have let the Doom Patrol be rebooted and 4 classic characters be totally ****ed up.

One of the things about Nightwing is that there's too many "concerned parties" involved in production. Not only are there the Nightwing writers and editors, but there are also the overall "Bat Family" writers and editors... and any special series that Nightwing's going to appear in... not to mention the Outsiders crew as well.

I don't see this affecting the cartoon in any way. Since this was a recent decision at DC, it's probably going to be awhile until this is even featured in a comic, so if the writers of TT even wanted to put this in the show, it won't be happening anytime soon. And I doubt they would anyway.

What is happening to all the Writers??? These killers used to be good people!!

Frank Miller 1986- The Dark Knight Returns
Frank Miller 2001- DKSA (CRAP)

John Byrne 1986- Man of Steel
John Byrne 2004- Doom Patrol (Destroying BBs continuity)

Chuck Dixon 1996- Good Batman Writer
Chuck Dixon 2004-Nightwing Killer

Scott Beatty 2001-Wrote the ultimate guide to the Dark Knight
Scott Beatty 2004- Adviser in killing Nightwing

Mark Waid 2000-JLA Tower of Babel
Mark Waid 2004- Superman Birthright (Total Crap)

DC is going down hill!!

Well, that's just the thing isn't it.

Mark Waid also wrote Kingdom Come, which was pretty crap anyway. Despite everyone going all orgasmic over Dick and Kori having a kid. But, that's just the thing.

Everyone has their own vision of their characters. And while we've had to deal with Devin Grayson's perverse Dick lust (that sounds so wrong out of context... but, hey, SA's forums did that or something already), I think Chuck Dixon's a step in the better direction.

My main problem?

Identity Crisis.

My solution:

Keith Giffen/J.M. DeMatteis/Kevin Maguire

The best solution.

**Shudders , gets Robin and Starrfire vodoo dolls and squishes them together , throws batgirl one in the river***

We are safe now :hahano:

Excuse me, Kakyoin, but I read the summary of Kingdom Come on Titans Tower and I thought it was pretty fascinating. Of course, I thought that long before I knew Robin/Nightwing and Starfire had a daughter. As for Devin Grayson f***ing up Nightwing because of her perverse desire to be f***ed by Nightwing, which might explain the presence of the new Tarantula, I read an issue of Nightwing last summer and I wasn't sure if it was nearly as apocalyptically horrible as everyone was making it out to be. Then again, I didn't browse the DC Comics Message Board back then.

Finally, there's the s***ting on Nightwing/Starfire that DC has been doing as of late. However, there is hope. If you've read the recent Outsiders comics and the Titans Tomorrow storyline in Teen Titans volume 3, issues 17 through 19, then you know that DC is setting us up for the renewal of Nightwing and Starfire's relationship. Will it last longer than it did before? Will they actually get married this time and bring Nightstar into mainstream DC continuity? Or will the same issues that ultimately wrecked their relationship the first time around pop up again? We don't know the answers to those questions, but we'll just have to keep reading to find out and not burn our comics in disgust just because we don't like the direction DC is headed in? Simple formula, people: like = read, don't like = don't read.

It's not that easy for me, venerable sir. THe very fact that they have tainted Nightwing haunts me every moment of my life because wheter I ignore Year One or not, that is the lame excuse for a storyline they are going to base their work off of. Even Devin Grayson said that she is going to spend the rest of her run trying to reunite Nightwing and Oracle. We're doomed!

*cough* Well you guys shouldent always agree with everything one person tells you. I am not calling this person a liar or anything like that but, I dont believe in this at this point. I wouldnt worry about it. Obviously they have been stating a point since season 1 that robin and starfire had mixed feelings for each other. So like I said dont believe everything you hear.

It's too much story for the material given. It's quite pathetic really. And Captain Marvel using Shazam to injure Superman was about the best the thing got. Otherwise, it read as overblown, overdone, and overly preachy against anti-heroes.

When we all know the Main Man could take Supes in a fight.

Also, and, I dunno if you've considered this, but... Comic Starfire is... really generic alien babe type and nowhere near as fun as the cartoon's. And how is this insulting Nightwing? Is there some Platonic Nightwing that you are assuming we all share and that these authors are merely imagining Nightwing without believing or even knowing what he is?

(And some of us, y'know, LIKE Babs more than Star)

Ugh... the female Tarantula, from everything I've read, is almost as much a Mary Sue as my character Tarot - in fact, from what I've heard, female Tarantula is proof that even professional comic writers can cross the Mary Sue foundations. Of course, I'm a fan of the WW2 Tarantula (he was pretty hot ^^; - and for the record, he appeared in the 1980's comic book "All Star Squadron," set in WW2).

As to Kingdom Come... in summary format, it does sound interesting. However, when you actually get the graphic novel in front of you, it's incredibly confusing and not the best of the AU stories out there (I vastly prefer JLA: the Nail, but Robin fans won't like it). I hate the way it favors the Fab Five Titans, while the other 4 get the short end of the stick (Cyborg becomes Robotman 3, losing all his humanity; Beast Boy becomes the gargoyle-like Menagerie, again losing all his humanity; Starfire is dead; Raven is nowhere to be seen). Most bookstores with graphic novel sections have a copy - read through it before you decide to invest.

As to the "setup" of the potential of a Nightwing/Starfire reconciliation, well, again it sounds as if the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. On one hand, you have the Nightwing staff pushing Dick/Babs, but on the other hand, you have Outsiders and Titans staffers hinting towards Dick/Kory.

You know, I honestly miss the days when I worried more about the heroes beating the bad guys than worrying about the heroes love lives >_<

In fact, that was one of the reasons I stopped reading comics (the other being the infamous move to Baxter Paper and comic store only sales)

I don't think the TT writers are going to put any of the bad stuff that happened to Robin/Starfire in the tv show. Cause if they do, it would ruin the whole show, people would stop watching it, and the show would be canceled.

Besides, the tv show's barely following most of the stuff from the DC comics.

Well, don't worry about it - I think the higher the Titans connection, the higher the probability of appearing. Female Tarantula and Batgirl 2/Oracle's only connections with the Titans have really been Nightwing/Robin 1. They have as much a chance of showing up as Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew (Beast Boy appeared in the final issue of their comic book). Batgirl 2/Flamebird's probability of appearing in Toon Titans is far higher.

Still, the show's following enough from the Titans comic book. Terra and Slade, Cyborg and Brother Blood (it was minor, but he did have a problem with Blood, because his ex-girlfriend had been a member of the cult and was killed when she tried to leave). However, everything that's appeared has been "sanitized for your protection" :p

I respect your opinion, Kakyoin, but I believe that the reason for Kingdom Come's over-preaching against antiheroes was a backlash against the popularity of "heroes" with malfunctioning moral compasses. Y'know, the ones who think it's ok to kill people because they're criminals and cause craploads of property damage in the process. However, you might be right about Kingdom Come containing too much story to fit in four or so issues. As for some people liking Barbara better than Starfire, count me as someone who likes them both equally and thinks they both have their merits. However, I do believe that the people at DC should decide for good which redhead they want Nightwing to be with. If it's Barbara, rock on. If it's Starfire, I won't complain. However, I do believe that Nightwing and Starfire had their time and as much as I'd like seeing them back together, I acknowledge that it's time to move on.

:D for all the fighting everyone is doing about who should be with who...

in all reality (or atleast comic reality) i love starfire. in the show more so then the comics. but sadly time moves faster then emotion, and we have to learn and deal with that the DC people have to switch it up every some odd years to keep things fresh and new. Who knows, in another 30 or 20 years we could see another crisis and Dick could have ended up marryen Star and then it could go from there...

Or star may get killed off like super girl did and other people did in the crisis and end up never graceing the pages of DC again.

All in all, we shouldn't complain about who poor Dick os going to end up with. we should really just be happy hes not getting his heart ripped up, spit on, and chewed up again.

Theres alot of fanfiction out there for people who want certin things to happen, and certin things not to happen. I really want star and Dick to end up in love (i alredy think they are in love), but if hes moved on enough to love Bab's then i'm redy to accept that to.

cuzz i have a folder full of bookmarked Star/Robin fanfics to comfort me :D

^kelz^