I thought I'd put this up here, it's a sort-of character study I did on Snape that I'd posted on TP. Like everything I do, it's way too long (sorry!!!), but I love Snape's character, he's such an enigma! Anyway, hope we can start this discussion back up again!

Severus Snape: As Evil as he Seems? Or Good Guy, Excellent Spy?

Speculation abounds over the true nature of Severus Snape. Many people see him as an evil, dark arts-loving, two-faced Death Eater spy for Voldemort. There is certainly abundant evidence to support this stance: he was in Slytherin as a student, was friends with a group of people at Hogwarts who almost all became Death Eaters, is Head of Slytherin House, and treats Slyhterins (especially Draco) favorably while treating others (especially Harry and friends) with cruelty and contempt; he used to be a Death Eater himself and has an apparent hatred for mudbloods as strong as any Death Eater; he appears to be obsessed with the dark arts and knows far too much about occlumency and legilimency to be considered trustworthy. This is not to mention more subtle hints, small slips in his emotionally-controlled faceade such as suspicious looks or a mysterious glittering in his eyes. Severus Snape is certainly portrayed as a very convincing villain trying to keep his duplicitous nature from being known to those around him.

Yet there are a few nagging inconsistencies, brief insights into a deeper identity, which could blow gaping holes in his villainous image. Just for example, half of the things that made Harry (and us) hate him in PS/SS turned out to be his attempts to protect Harry's or Dumbledore's interests. We're given the excuse that Snape feels he owes a life-debt to James for rescuing him from Lupin in werewolf form as a student, a debt he feels he can cancel if he saves Harry, yet the contempt he shows for Harry's father when confronted on the issue casts doubt over this explanation.

'I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter,' he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. 'Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you - your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't gotten cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts.' (PoA, Ch. 14)

So why did Snape really want to protect Harry? Since he does seem to want to keep Harry safe, why does he treat him so cruelly? Is it really due to a childhood grudge for his father, or is there something else there? Could he possibly be good when everything about him seems so shady and evil? And why on Earth does Dumbledore trust a character so . . . Slytherin-ish?

One possible answer to these questions is fairly complicated to explain. To start out, lets consider Snape's childhood, a time when many think he might have shown his first signs of malevolence. One of the biggest insights we're given into Snape's childhood occurs when Harry breaks into his mind during one of his Occlumency lessons in OotP and we see "a hook-nosed man. . .shouting at a cowering woman, while a small, dark-haired boy cried in a corner," (OotP, Ch. 26). Just as most of us did, Harry found it "unnerving to think that the crying little boy who had watched his parents shouting was actually standing in front of him with such loathing in his eyes," (OotP, CH. 26). Young Severus, black eyes leaking tears of helplessness, powerless to either help or to escape the situation he was in. The same young Severus who went to Hogwarts with a chance to learn magic, to maybe even become powerful in something as opposed to his powerlessness in his home situation. For a boy fresh out of such an abusive environment, the desire to acheive even a chance at some type of defense or power would have been very great, probably heavy on his mind as he sat down to place the Sorting Hat on his head to be placed into Slytherin. His desire to have a functional family, somewhere he could feel like he belonged, would have been equally important to him, but unfortunately, he is not very popular and his only sense of belonging is with hateful 'friends' who place too much stock on background and status.

Snape would have been painfully jealous of James: smart, funny, talented, popular James from a decent, loving family. James's antics, seen in Snape's pensieve memory, would have been extremely humiliating in themselves, yet became devastatingly so in front of a smart, pretty, popular, muggle-born girl who felt sorry enough for him to defend him even though they weren't friends. Rather than accepting Lily's help and admitting to his arch-enemies that he needed a muggle-born girl to fight his battles, Snape resorted to the only defense mechanism he had. He insulted her, calling her a "'filthy little Mudblood'" (OotP, Ch. 28), using language and beliefs probably encountered from his 'freinds,' and in doing so not only disdaining Lily's offer of help but also pushing away a chance at having a real friend. The only friends left to him at that point were the Slytherins, and when all of them became Death Eaters he did as well, perhaps for reasons of power, perhaps for the feeling of belonging, however feeble, yet certainly not for the same reasons as the others: a feeling of superiority over others based on what families they came from.

Regardless of his motives, we know for a fact from a combination of Avery's testimony, Dumbledore's acknowledgement, and proof voluntarily given from Snape's own arm, that Snape was a Death Eater. "'I have given evidence already on this matter,' [Dumbledore] said calmly. 'Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is no more a Death Eater than I am,'" (GoF, Ch. 30). This brings up a possibility for Snape's treatment of Slytherins vs. others (or more specifically, Draco vs. Harry). Dumbledore stated that Snape turned spy before Voldemort's downfall, and it was probably from him that Dumbledore first learned of plots against the Potters and the existence of a spy leaking information to Voldemort's side. As such, it would most likely have been Snape's assignment to discover the identity of this spy, a task at which he failed dismally, to the Potter's downfall. This would seem to be a more likely reason for Snape's desire to protect Harry in PS/SS: he felt responsible for the death of Harry's parents, and made it a personal quest to protect Harry where his parents could not. This may help to explain Snape's frequent anger at Harry for breaking the rules, an anger similar in nature to that expressed by Lupin upon finding out Harry had snuck into Hogsmeade: both want Harry to be protected. The difference between the two is that whereas Lupin made Harry feel guilty for his irresponsibility, Snape, as usual, attempted to use fear (a lost cause on Harry). This theory of Snape's guilty conscience would also explain his blindness and emotional outbursts at the end of PoA: he would have taken his failure very personally and would have made it his goal to recapture Sirius, the man everyone (including Snape, who had never found out the spy's true identity) thought had betrayed the Potters, upon hearing of his escape. This was fueled, of course, by his hatred of the man to begin with, a hatred that would only have increased over the years, unlike most grudges, by the haunting memory of the way he had been outsmarted.

Assuming everything thus far to be true, how does a man presumably good in nature act so horrible to everyone (especially Harry) except for the Slytherins (particularly Malfoy)? The answer to this question lies in the nature of Snape's duties for the order - he is a spy. Every good spy needs a disguise, one good enough to fool friends and foes alike, preferably, in order to be effective. Now recall what Sirius said to Snape in Grimmauld Place: "'Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days? I expect he's delighted his lapdog's working at Hogwarts, isn't he?'" (OotP, Ch. 24). We can assume from Snape's next comments about Sirius being recognized as 'Snuffles' on platform 9 3/4 that he is indeed working closely with Lucius at this point, and most likely was in the past as well. In order for Snape to keep his true nature from those he spies on, Snape must act as if he had never really given up the traits he had as Death Eater (the assumption on the Death Eaters' parts being that he is lying to Dumbledore and really spying for them), including calling Voldemort 'the Dark Lord.' Not only would he have to treat Slytherins (from whence all(?) of the Death Eaters came), especially Draco and friends (Death Eaters' sons), with favoritism, but he would also have to show the loathing any Death Eater would feel towards Harry Potter, the vanquisher of the 'Dark Lord.' Granted, Snape had already had that reputation for some time before any of them began to attend Hogwarts, but remember that up until the end of CoS Lucius was a governor of considerable influence on the school's board, and he would have kept a close eye on the school, probably in the hopes of gaining the Headmaster's position. On a side note, this could also explain Dumbledore's refusal to let Snape teach Defense Against the Dark Arts - as a former/current Death Eater, he would be expected to teach all of the students dark arts, as Karkaroff does at Durmstrang, something the Death Eater Snape would do but that the real Snape wouldn't want to. Even when it might be safe, Snape can't afford to let his disguise of loathing for Harry slip - even if no one heard, someone like Draco would notice it if Harry had any other expression but hatred on his face when looking at Snape. Snape's seemingly evil character thus becomes a disguise, another design to protect Harry or Dumbledore's interests.

On the surface, Snape's behavior, past and present, as well as his friendship with Lucius, his interest in the dark arts, and his skills at occlumency and legilimency, make him appear to be an untrustworthy, evil wizard seeking to forward his own well-being like any Slytherin, with strong implications for his involvement with dark wizards and Death Eaters. Despite this, something makes him feel a need to protect Harry when any Death Eater would have let Harry die many times over. And Dumbledore clearly has a strong reason to trust Snape, strong enough to reveal vital secrets to him (such as the location of Grimmauld Place); in fact, Dumbledore trusts Snape's loyalty so far that he virtually places his life in his hands. If we are to trust Dumbledore (as most of us feel we must, at this point), how else can we explain Snape's duplicitous nature than to see it as a rather deceptive spygame for Dumbledore's side? Like JKR said, Snape is definitely a character we need to keep an eye on, but do we assume he is as evil as he first appears, or is there more depth to his background and his character?

I think he may well be the most psychologically complicated character in the series, and you've captured that so wonderfully, while leaving miles to go to unfold it further! The author clearly dwells on him, if she is not exactly "fond" of him. I wonder sometimes if he is not a little out of proportion for his complexity, next to most of the other characters, especially the adults. It would certainly seem that his role is going to be one of great importance ultimately, or it would be a waste of all that development. At first I used to think he was a rotter stereotype, but then she shows you he himself is cultivating that for the students' consumption, and there is something in him that is a distorted map of his whole generation (the generation that was frosted by Voldemort, like the generation of a war). Which is a source of information and reference to Harry, no matter how weirdly or unpleasantly, and I think that is why they don't and seemingly can't just mutually avoid.

I'll come back to this later. I want to read it more closely first. I think it's fabulous!

I hate Snape.
The part where Neville grips the desk when Barty-Moody does the Cruciatus curse,
and the saving of his Mum's DBB Gum wrappers. And he's brave-stood up to friends/DE's in the Ministry.

And Snape is evil to him.

Harry aside. Hermione aside.

Snape picks on the weakest. He's evil. And he has a lot to answer for.
I'm not sold on what he was talking with Quirrel about in the forest.
And, Regulus can't back out, but Snape can? Double agent, tripple agent.
Fidelius charm.
I don't buy it. He's not on our side. Unless you're a Death Eater.

Regulus didn't have Dumbledore's protection. :unsure:

I don't think the argument is so much that Snape has a heart of gold that is unfortunately buried down 600 feet in a concrete bunker, or anything. He's twisted. But he's complex in a way that suggests he is either a literary miscalculation or he's important in ways we still haven't begun to see.

Snape is such a complicated character because he has so many completing and contradictory motivations, and we are probably aware of only some of them.

He hates Harry because he hates his father, but at the same time he has to repay the magical obligation of Harry's father saving Snape's life.
He seems a natural Slytherin, and thus sided with Voldermort, but probably something we haven't found out about yet caused him to change sides, and he is obligated to Dumbledore for accepting and trusting him, and giving a job where probably no-one else would employ him, and possibly this is all mixed with guilt for some of the things he did while he was a death eater.
The PS scenes with Quirrell are hard to read, (and they have to be as we are supposed to think Snape is the major bad guy) but Snape could be being loyal to Dumbledore, or he could be motivated by greed for the stone, or a mixture of the two.

Also whatever his true feelings, he has to be apparently loyal to Voldermort in front of Voldermort and his supporters, and loyal to Dumbledore in front of Dumbledores supporters, so that he can function as a spy. I don't think we can be totally sure about which side Snape really is on until the end of the books; personally I believe he is loyal to Dumbledore, but that is mostly because I trust Dumbledore's judgement.

Just another couple of thoughts...

I had an idea about why Snape has to hide some of his memories before every occlumency lesson. Suppose they're not things he wants to hide from Harry (or just from Harry) - perhaps he's really trying to hide them from Voldemort? If Harry saw some of them (perhaps something relating to Snape's true role as Dumbledore's spy), then it might be possible for Voldemort to see them as well, through the mind link they share. It might even be possible (and this is stretching a bit more) that Voldemort knows about the occlumency lessons, and can see Harry's thoughts as we are able to. He knows about the link at this point, so what would stop him from having a peek? It would be very uncharacteristic for him to not use a weapon once he knows about it. We know Harry's scar always hurts afterwards. If not because of this, then why, I wonder?

Anyone have any thoughts?

The one memory we saw wouldn't have mattered to Voldemort, but I guess the other two are ones which he didn't want either Voldemort or Harry to see, though Harry probably wouldn't have reacted as Snape thinks he would had he seen them.
I am guessing one is whatever triggered Snape to change sides, the other might be Snape going to Dumbledore with the information that caused James and Lily to go into hiding.

I originally thought this as well, but I'm thinking that Snape would do anything he could to keep an experience like this away from Voldemort. We know Voldemort delights in torturing people, so it's reasonable for Snape to want to keep a weapon like this out of Voldemort's hands. Also, if Snape had already hidden this from him for this reason then Voldemort finding out about it at this point would probably make him pretty suspicious of Snape. He might realise that Snape is more than he seems, or that he's been deceiving him, but either way it would be bad news for Snape.

Snape may not want Voldemort to know about the memory Harry saw, but as Wormtail saw it live, he can't stop him finding out anyway.

Well Snape is one of my favorite characters because I love to hate him. JKR has made a point of making him one of the most unpredictable and hard to figure characters. I am not sure I am buying the fact that he was removing memories to keep from Voldemort. I feel like we were showed this particular memory for more than just to be shown that James was a bit of a jerk. I think we were shown that memory to show how much of a priority it is for Snape to not let Harry see his weekness against James.

I feel like this priority is a sure sign that Snape will never get past his hatred for James and/or harry. I think the protection he has given Harry was demanded by Dumbledore. I dont think Snape would kill harry but I dont think he would bend over backwards to assist harry.

JKR has said not to trust Snape entirely and this is where I think she is leading with that. I doubt he will betray Dumbledore or the order intentionall, but I think he will struggle with his emotions when it comes to Harry. And in the end it might be a delay in action or a wrong reaction that will make us raise our eyebrows and say, "ah thats why we shouldnt trust him!"

..............
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Then again, I could be wrong!! :P :P

Excellent point, I hadn't even thought of that! :huh:

So, I'm hearing this theory to be that: If Harry Does Occlumency with someone, it runs the risk of VM piggie backing someone's wireless? I always thought that there was a possibility/risk that VM could see into Harry's mind through Snape. But, this thread theory is arguing that VM could see into Snape's mind via Harry.
HHHHHHmmmmmmmmm....... <_<

Absolutely, thats why Dumbledore wouldnt look Harry in the eye or show too much of a closeness to Harry. He knew Voldemort could tap into Harrys emotions and he didnt want Voldemort to know that Harry and himself had anything more than a headmaster/student relationship.

What baffles me is why Dumbledore felt it was ok for Snape to teach Harry Occlumency. Snape can keep Voldemort from seeing his emotions and his memories but what stopped Voldemort from seeing through Harry than Snape was the one doing the teaching?

I think Snape and his relationship with Sirius are very pivotal to the story.

Dumbledore was hoping that, by forcing the two of them to work together for a common goal, they might be able to put aside their mutual animosity and to learn to function more cooperatively. Dumbledore later admitted he was wrong.

Voldemort seeing Snape teaching Harry occlumency may not be a problem but depends on who knows what. I think both Voldemort and Dumbledore think Snape is pretending to support the other side but really spying for them. In this case both of them know Snape is good at Occlumency, as he would need to be for the deception to work, and the lessons wouldn't be suspicious if Voldemort found out about them as Snape (if he hadn't already told Voldemort about them anyway), could say Dumbledore asked him to do it, and as Harry wasn't very good at it he didn't think it worth mentioning.

I don't think anyone ever dreamed; not Dumbledore, not Snape, not Voldemort, nor even Harry; that Harry would prove to be so successful and powerful so quickly at repelling Snape's legilimency and forcing it back onto his instructor. It came as a surprize to Harry and to us the readers and it certainly took Snape by surprize. I'm sure that both Dumbledore and Snape felt it was perfectly safe to store any memories that they didn't want revealed into the pensieve. They were probably confident that it would take quite some time for Harry to build up to a level where he would be capable of such a powerful defensive move. That's what's so great about this story. Nobody knows exactly just what Harry is capable of doing! :D

You know, I always really liked the Occlumency lesson scenes with Harry and Snape. Snape got to see all kinds of horrible memories from Harry, yet he never made fun of him over them. I actually thought they might bond a little over the lessons, until Harry snooped into Snape's private memories and Snape lost it. I don't completely blame Snape for this either; you'll notice this is just after Malfoy walked in and found out Harry's taking 'remedial potions.' I think that part of the reason Harry decided to snoop was Malfoy discovering this (besides the terrible mood he was already in); after all, some of the people in the DA already know about it. There's just something about Malfoy that makes Harry behave more childishly. In fact, this is remarkably similar to how Snape behaves when it comes to James and Sirius, one of the reasons he blows up at Harry like that, I think.

It was so sad, though, that Snape blew up like he did (and a little scary, he completely flipped!). I really thought they were making some progress. They weren't exactly sharing memories over a cup of tea, but they did each get to see some of the other's past, and they were realizing how much they had in common. When Harry saw Snape's memories by reflecting Snape's legilimens it was ok - it was a sign that Snape was succeeding in his job to teach Harry Occlumency. But when Harry snuck into Snape's penseive memory he was betraying a trust they had built up (sort of). Before, Harry was always aware of what was coming when Snape broke into his mind, and he was given the opportunity to repel him. But by snooping into Snape's memories he was not only not giving him a chance to defend himself, in a way he was also reversing their power roles. Harry saw Snape as a defenseless kid his own age, saw him being picked on by other kids, not something a student is supposed to see in his teacher. So when Snape found Harry in there, they no longer had the student:teacher relationship, it was more of a student:student relationship, but with Harry being more powerful (he had just witnessed some of Snape's weakness, he had a 'weapon,' as Snape calls it).

It's a little disturbing, actually; this is not far off from the concept of rape, though a rape of the mind. Harry took something private and personal from Snape without his permission, and in doing so stripped him of some of his power in their relationship. I don't mean to imply that Harry did this intentionally at all; I don't think he meant it that way at all, even though he is a bit guilty for snooping in the first place. In fact, I think Harry learned some very important lessons from it. But imagine how betrayed and, well, raped Snape must feel. In this sense, his retaliation is understandable, even if he is a teacher and Harry a student. And actually, since Harry just saw Snape as a student (a helpless one), Snape behaving as he did was more like the role he had just been forced into, even if he is older. So I guess I can't really blame Snape for flipping out like he did.

Ok, well, just a thought there, felt like sharing it.

Oh yeah, I dont blame Snape at all for the way he reacted. Obviously he really didnt want Harry to see that memory. The thing about memories is that it is how you perceive events that makes it so personal. At least in the real world anyway. This instance seemed more like time travel.

I half expected Sirius and Lupin to deny everything when Harry asked them about the incident he witnessed and to tell Harry that it was how Snape perceived those incidents. But they didnt, Sirius fell a bit for me in the last book. I realize there is so much more we didnt bear witness too but I almost felt like we were being dealt something to ease the pain of the loss of Sirius.

On point I believe important to note that Harry's most guarded topic was the Cho thing. Did he use the shield charm then? Or was that the stinging hex? Or just screaming. Anyway, I believe the theme, here, to be that it doesn't matter how old you are, one's most precious feelings are the ones involving Love/crushes.

As for the Mentor/student relationship: I saw this as a complete dual. Look at how Barty-Moody and Lupin worked with Harry. Err, well, at least Lupin gave some tips on how to work the Patronis charm. Snape is just dualing wands. I don't beleive that there was any respect-AT ALL- being earned there. Harry dreaded the whole ordeal.
It looked to me as if Snape continally attacked Harry with his guard down. And conversly, Harry saw his opponent's weak spot exposed, and dove into the pensieve.
As for the Snape v. DD as the teacher, I would think that whatever channeling of Vm that Harry could do with DD as the teacher would be the same as with Snape. I would suspect that Snape put the evidence of the Fidelius charm and the events which lead up to that[the story behind] in the pensieve, as well.

My first impression of the occlumency lessons was that yes, Snape was trying to attack Harry with his guard down. But I re-read all the Occlumency scenes last night, and in every case but one Snape gave Harry warning of what he was about to do first, whther by counting to 3 or by saying something like "get ready now" (I'll get to the exception in a second). Harry was caught off guard a time or two, especially the first time when he really didn't know what to expect (but this is the time Snape gives the most warning). But it seemed to me like Harry was caught off-guard because mostly because he wasn't prepared, not so much because Snape wasn't giving him warning. I think his lack of preparedness (as well as his dislike of Snape) is what makes him dread the encounters more than Snape's mistreatment of Harry. But at least Harry knows what he is facing each time, even if he chose not to practice as he should have.

Now, the one time that Snape seemed to purposefully try to catch Harry off-guard was right after Harry successfully repelled Snape's attempt with the protego charm and broke into Snape's mind to see his childhood memories instead. The very next attempt has Snape attacking Harry after only reaching 2 instead of 3. It can be argued that Snape was doing this out of vengeance (he was pretty damn angry, that's for sure), but there is also another possibility here. Harry had just progressed to be able to actually control his emotions enough to repel the invasion of his mind, the farthest he had yet gone in the attempts. It could be that Snape felt he had to up the ante a bit more, testing Harry's ability to block the intrusion without being completely forewarned. It would be a good idea, once Harry has mastered the first step in being able to block his mind from Snape. After all, it's highly unlikely that someone intending to break into one's mind that way would give warning. It's like Crouch/Moody said, "constant vigilance!"

Also, Snape's mistreatment of Harry could have been another attempt to challenge Harry into becoming a better occlumens. It would be much harder to clear your mind of emotion if someone is making you as angry as Snape makes Harry. If Snape was just being spiteful, I think he would have made fun of Harry for some of those memories. Instead he simply accuses Harry of being incapable and lazy, something that angers Harry not only because Snape is insulting him but also because some of what Snape asays has some truth. I imagine Harry's more angry that Snape is able to see into his memories than he is about the things Snape says, even if Snape's comments are intended to push his buttons. He might be more angry with himself, but he takes it out on Snape (antoher reason he can't control his emotions enough).

My point in my last post was that I saw a possibility for the growth of respect between Harry and Snape, not that they actually acheived it. Both were able to see a little of what the other had gone through before, and both had hard things to deal with. I thought they might have been capable of reaching a level of understanding higher than what they had before, at least if Harry hadn't snooped on Snape's penseive memories. That didn't happen, of course, but I saw the potential for it; they definitely have a few things in common, at any rate.

One last comment...I realized something while reading through all the occlumency scenes again, and this has to do with Snape possibly trying to protect himself from Voldemort seeing those memories. The first time Harry ever makes it through the door he's been dreaming about isn't in a dream, it's during his last Occlumency session with Snape (the last one before the pensieve incident). How could he see further into it unless Voldemort was showing it to him at the moment? It wasn't a memory, he hadn't seen it before either in real life or in his dreams. And Snape for some reason "seemed even angrier than he had done two minutes befor, when Harry had seen into his own memories." I don't know why I overlooked this before, but it has to mean something.

Sorry this is so long, I was trying to address several points while explaining my reasoning. Any thoughts on any of this?

For the life of me, I can't figure out how to edit a quote, so, :rolleyes:

So bear with me.

Harry's looking into the pensieve has been compared to rape. Isn't that how Harry felt at every lesson? No one asked him if he was willing to have occluemency instruction with Snape. He was forced into it. Not a pretty picture when viewed that way.
As for Snape giving Harry warning, Snape was so inept at actually teaching the method to Harry, that Harry had no clue what to do. And lesson after lesson, Snape made no attempt to instruct Harry. He just kept insulting him and attacking his brain, warning or no warning, I'm not impressed. It was a free walk through Harry's mind for Snape. He sure got lots of ammo.
And lts go back to the lesson where Harry finally succeeds in breaking through the legilimency. He sees Snape through the cloud of memories and consciously raises his wand to defend himself, deflecting the spell and seeing into Snape's mind. Snape is visibly shaken. This is when Snape decides the lessons are over. There's no more for him to gain by continuing them as Harry has learned to repel him effectively.
So with less warning he attacks Harry again, but ....
Does Harry come up with a bunch of memories? No. He has the corridor dream. Why? Because it was Snape who was implanting it before the DL knew about the connection in the scar.
The DL didn't learn about the connection until Arthur Weasley was attacked, but Harry had begun having this dream at Privet Drive. And until this moment with Snape, Harry had always been asleep. It had always been a dream.......
:huh: Now why would Snape implant the dream? Hmmm......

At the very next lesson, Draco suddenly shows up. Snape is called away and Harry is left with the pensieve, a pensieve filled with a scene that deserves a thread of its own. I believe that Snape left the pensieve knowing Harry would look into it, because it he had no intention of taking the chance that Harry would succeed in breaking through his spell again. And he was not going to admit to anyone, especially Harry, that he had figured out how to do it. So rather than work with Harry to perfect his technique or go to the headmaster and say that Harry had the idea, he arranged for the end of lessons to be the fault of evil, arrogant Harry, son of James the Devil.

Very fishy.

Yeah!
This is the way I always saw that event. LV using Snape to get into Harry's head. It surely could go each way. And possibly did. But, it's the way Snape asked the quesiton about the DoM that made me suspicious.

I respect Solattice' point that DADA is about dealing with people whom play dirty. However, I think that the way to teach it successfully is to build confidence in the skill, then hone it with being off guard. But, then again, no better way to get real world practice than working with Snape.

The difference between Harry's experiences and Snape's is that Harry was given the chance to try to defend himself. Sure, you could argue that he might not have wanted to do it, that it was very painful and invasive for him. And it was. It's remarkable how a lot of the things in Harry's life happen that way, and he just has to deal with it. But this time Harry learned about it beforehand, he knew what was coming, and he was taught ways to practice strengthening his mind to prevent the real 'rape' (by Voldemort, not Snape) from happening. Snape isn't just trying to abuse Harry, he's trying to teach him how to prevent the real abuse from happening, but this is something that can't be taught unless Harry can be shown what it is. He has to know what he's trying to defend himself against in order to condition his mind to be able to fight it.

I think the method is not something that can be told to a person, as it's not merely an incantation or a spell. It's strength of mind, but it's more complicated than throwing off the imperius curse because it requires overcoming emotions. Controlling your emotions isn't something you can be told how to do, it's something that requires great discipline and a lot of conditioning. Snape couldn't have just told Harry how to block people out of his mind, Harry had to learn how to do it. And there would be no progress if Harry didn't have to try to fight strong emotions like those aroused by Snape. Especially hatred and anger, the emotions Harry would have to conquer in order to face Voldmeort (which is what he is being trained for).

I thought the purpose of Occlumency was to block the intrusion in the first place, not just to repel it once it has begun. One glimpse would be all it would take for Voldemort to learn whether a person was lying or not, and Harry's ability to repel him after he's already started breaking into his mind would be meaningless if Voldemort's already learned what he wants to know. Snape knows this, of course, or he'd never survive a minute in his company. So I don't think Snape would consider Harry's training complete at this point, even if he has made great progress.

Voldemort didn't know of the connection until after Arthur was attacked, but the connection was still there, which is whay Harry only saw Voldemort's thoughts when he was sleeping. Harry saw the corridor in the DoM prior to the attack because it was something Voldemort was dwelling on, not because Voldemort was trying to show it to Harry at this point. We know, however, that Voldemort was showing Harry the corridor after he found out about the connection:

I think the image Harry sees during the occlumency lesson is the first real attempt on Voldemort's part to tempt Harry into retreiving the prophecy. I see no reason to think it was Snape putting that image there, especially since there is nothing to support a Legilimens being able to put new material into a person's mind. Perhaps they can call forth those images most pertinent to what they're trying to learn, but the only time we see foreign information entering Harry's mind is because of the link (or possession, but we have no way of knowing how much this was facilitated by the link).

Ok, I need to cut this off now. Just wanted to say, you guys bring up some very interesting ideas, I really enjoy pondering and discussing them. Forgive me for arguing against you though, it's all in the interest of a good discussion!

There's no indication that Harry didn't want to stop Snape. Very much the opposite seems to be true. Harry honestly didn't know how to stop him or he would have much sooner. Again, Snape doesn't really want him to know how to stop the attacks.

I couldn't disagree more. If Snape had spent less time insulting Harry and more time explaining and encouraging him to empty his mind, Harry might have managed it much sooner. But this was not Snape's intention. He has to keep Harry riled up and fail miserably as an instructor because he's got a free pass to Harry's memories and he's taking full advantage of it. Actually, legilimency has pervaded the books from the start. There are frequent mentions of Dumbledore's light blue stare and Harry's impression that Snape can read his mind.

Snape was attacking Harry in these lessons to his own advantage.

If it required overcoming emotions, Snape wouldn't be able to do it.<_<
It seems to have more to do with emptying the mind.

This is from PS/SS. pg 183, scholastic, after harry had seen Filch and Snape trying to bandage Snape's Fluffy wounds..

Interesting bit of foreshadowing.

None of those emotions were part of the corridor dream, so if that's what Snape is supposed to be teaching him to block, then again we see a pathetically inept instructor. Nothing Snape taught helped him to repel the desire to hurt Dumbledore whenever the headmaster looked at him, either.

Snape told Harry before the lessons began that the connection in the scar was a different situation than the normal legilimency / occlumency magic. So why was this method used at all? Because Snape thought that Harry knew how to kill Voldemort, and he was looking for that information, assuming that if Harry didn't know consciously, it was stored in his subconscious, perhaps in early childhood memories.

The fact is that Harry can produce both a Ridikkulus and a fully corporeal Patronus, as well as resist the Imperious curse. Harry has tremendous strength and discipline of mind. Snape is deliberately not instructing him.

Good point. So why has Snape ended the lessons?
Snape isn't training Harry to resist Voldemort. Snape is invading Harry's mind for his own purposes.
But now that Harry has succeeded in repelling Snape, there's no reason to take the chance on it happening again. Snape is finished. And he has failed to discover how to kill Voldemort. A bitter disappointment.

Was Voldemort dwelling on it? That's certainly what we are led to believe. Or was it Snape who deliberately planted the dream because he, along with certain other individuals, are just as interested in the last part of the prophesy as Voldemort is. They need to kill Voldemort. To Snape, Harry is just a weapon for his own purposes.

As for the OotP quote, it would only apply to the period that Voldemort was himself intentionally planting the dream, after the attack on Mr Weasley.

I agree it's probably a different type of magic. If you're right, and this is the first time that Voldemort personally attempts to show Harry the corridor, isn't it interesting that Snape scheduled a lesson for the same time frame? Very suspicious.

Exactly! That's my point. Until Voldemort knew about the link, someone else was planting the dream.

Hear! Hear!

I love these discussions. And I'm not sensitive. Puleeze disagree with me, I love a good debate. I will never insult or think less of anyone who doesn't see things my way. It's just the pure joy of looking at events and characters in HP from many angles and through many lenses. :D

Thanks! :)

It's taken me awhile to respond to your last post, timetraveller, because I was trying to think of a really good way to refute it. But unfortunately a lot of what you said boils down to our perceptions of what Snape's motives are, something we really can do little but speculate about before we know more of his secrets. Nearly every response I could think of came down to the same point: I disagree with you, but the evidence is so small/inconsequential that it still boils down to interpretation. This is one of the biggest reasons that I like Snape's character, and discussing it: he's just such a huge mystery. However, for the sake of the discussion, I will throw a couple of them out there.

First off, I still don't see enough evidence to suggest that Snape isn't trying to teach Harry how to do Occlumency. You're right in pointing out that Snape gives little instruction on how to actually repel a person from breaking into his mind, but how do we know this isn't all the advice that he can give? It always seemed to me to be something that has to be learned by trying to do it over and over, until it goes right, with a few pointers along the way. A different concept altogether, but not too different from learning to ride a bicycle - you can't just be told how to balance like that, you have to keep trying until you're able to do it (preferably with someone there to catch you if you fall). Snape doesn't seem to like 'catching' Harry if he fails, though; his methods of teaching are closer to fear and intimidation. The only one that we know of with the propensity to be nice while teaching Harry is Dumbledore, but he's not eligible for obvious reasons. So we're stuck with Snape's harsh but effective (well, still waiting on Harry's potions results to know just how effective, really) teaching style.

Speaking of provocative teaching methods, I think Snape's right, it is vital to be able to overcome emotions in order to prevent such an attack. Yes, Harry's told to empty his mind during his occlumency lessons, but at the same time Snape continually tells him to let go of emotions. Just for one example:

It was my interpretation that emptying yourself of emotions is one of the most important keys to being able to protect your mind. I disagree, too, on why Snape keeps Harry riled up in each Occlumency lesson. I think he is intentionally trying to provoke Harry in order to test his strength of mind in a somewhat extreme situation. It would be more beneficial for Harry to be able to repel someone from his mind if he's taught to do so while incredibly angry, so Snape is trying to give Harry the experience he needs in order to be able to do it while facing Voldemort. So yes, he probably is trying to get Harry good and angry, but it says something that the only way he does so is to tell him his mind's too weak and he's not practicing enough (pointing out his shortcomings, not just making fun of him). I don't think he was doing it just to be mean, or else he would have found all the ammo he needs in Harry's memories (he asks whose dog it was that kept Harry up in that tree, but instead of making fun of him for it he goes on to offer mild praise for Harry's ability after just one try). Besides, don't you think if Snape was just trying to gain access to all that ammo that he would use it once in awhile rather than appearing to ignore it?

Just a few more points on the subject of occlumency in general (maybe we should start a new thread on this topic?), and then I'll get to the vision of the DoM corridor. Firstly, your argument seems to suggest that it was entirely Snape's idea for Harry to learn occlumency, rather than it being Dumbledore's. Regardless of who suggested the idea in the first place, Dumbledore supports it. Dumbledore thinks it might be beneficial for Harry to learn to condition his mind against external attack even though the link between Harry and Voldemort isn't quite the same thing. Also, I thought the reason Snape ended the lessons had more to do with Harry breaking in to see his memory in the pensieve. Snape may be able to control his emotions when around Voldemort, but for some reason he can't do it when around Harry or Sirius (or James, I would guess, if he were still alive). I don't really want to get into his motives here, because this is long enough as it is, but I don't think it was because there wasn't further progress to be made. Even if he wanted to find out how Harry might defeat Voldemort, I think Snape would want to give it a try a few more times before reporting to his Lord that he had failed (Harry can't block the last attack, so he obviously isn't an expert yet; at the very least he can be tricked by being caught unawares).

Ok, now to the vision of the DoM corridor. Sorry to be blunt, but I disagree completely with the idea of someone else implanting the dream of the DoM corridor prior to Voldemort's knowledge of the link. We know Voldemort was dwelling on it - this is the weapon he's after, the one we learn about at the very beginning of the book. This is the reason behind the attack on Bode, and the reason Arthur is guarding the door in the first place on the night he was attacked. Besides, who else is capable of implanting information such as that? It's one thing to be able to bring the information out during an occlumency lesson, but to put it in there in the first place? The only time we ever see anything of this sort is purely between Harry and Voldemort.

It is interesting, though, that Snape's lesson takes place at the same time as Harry seeing the rest of the corridor for the first time. I don't know whether it was done intentionally or not. It is possible, since the lessons always take place at about the same time, that Snape told Voldemort when to do it. I don't like this idea very much, but that's mostly because I don't want it to be true. We do know, though, that Snape seems angrier and more unnerved than ever before when this happened, suggesting to me that he didn't know it was going to happen (unless he's just a really good actor, which is possible as well, though more unlikely, in my mind). I tend to think of it as more of a coincidence: perhaps Voldemort had been trying intermittently to show the corridor to Harry, and this was just the first time he was successful (perhaps because of Harry's tiredness after another occlumency session, he did mention that one lesson was more tiring than 6 Quidditch practices). Or, perhaps this was just the first time he made the attempt. Either way, though, I think it was likely (though not definitely) just a coincidence that the vision occured during an occlumency lesson.

I don't remember when this happened in OOTP, but, according to Dumbledore, Voldemort was aware of the link between himself and Harry when Harry saw through the eyes of the snake that was being possessed by Voldemort; the snake that attacked Mr. Weasley. I believe the occlumency lessons came after that. If that's the case, then Voldemort could have easily implanted the vision of the corridor into Harry's mind.

During an interview, an interviewer mentioned that there seemed to be a redemptive pattern emerging concerning Snape. JKR responded by saying that she was surprised the interviewer would even think such a thing. JKR has also said that Snape is not a nice man. In GoF, when Dumbledore asked Snape to do whatever it was Snape had done for him before Voldemort's fall, it was noted (I think) that Snape's face was somewhat paler than normal. So, to me, it looks like this ...

1) Snape had a horrible childhood.
2) Snape grew to hate James & Co.
3) Snape was kept from death by James
4) Snape fell into league with Voldemort
5) Snape learned something about Voldemort (or just came to his senses) that caused him to believe he needed to do something to defeat Voldemort.
6) Dumbledore believed Snape's reasoning and began using him as a spy.
7) Voldemort fell to Harry.
8) Snape hates Harry because, to him, Harry is James. But now Snape has the upper hand and is enjoying payback of a sort.
9) Snape still feels some obligation to protect Harry because of ...
a) He is a professor and Harry is a student; Snape would protect any student someone was trying to kill,
B) James' protecting Snape, and
c) Dumbledore's wish that he do so as part of the ongoing war against Voldemort.

Regardless of who suggested teaching Harry occlumency, Snape was willing to do it because he is really good at it and because Dumbledore asked that he do so. As Dumbledore said, he was hoping Snape's dislike for Harry wouldn't interfere with the lessons. It didn't make it easy at all for either of them, but they probably would've continued if Harry hadn't taken a dip in Snape's pensieve.

I've been enjoying reading these arguments and I wanted to add a tiny little bit. The quote that Solattice brought up is one (and probably the only) point in the book where I am actually proud of the way Snape is teaching. Snape obviously knows, much more than Harry, the need to learn Occlumency and the danger Harry, and the rest of the wizarding world, could be in if he does not learn. Snape, here, tries to drive this point home, giving Harry the best chance to know just why he must control his emotions and learn Occlumency. Snape is saying "Hey, I don't care if you hate me more than anything on this earth. I don't care if you have more right to be upset and angry than any person in the world. It doesn't matter, because you have to defeat Voldemort, and this must be done." Snape is provoking Harry to control his emotions by calling him "weak," knowing that Harry will take the bait and want to prove him otherwise.

I had a coach once who nearly everyone hated because he was so critical of us and worked us far harder than anyone thought was necessary. But when it came competition time...we always won. In that case, winning wasn't really important. But in Harry's case, it's everything. Snape knows this, and is doing his best here to get it through to Harry.

Harry's corridor dreams start at the start of the book, long before Voldemort knows about the link, which he found out about just before Christmas when the snake attacked Mr. Weasley, so these dreams just show Voldemort's obsession with getting the prophecy. It is only later that Voldemort decides to use the link to lure Harry to the DoM, this could have been planned any time after Voldemort discovered the link and after Krecher disappears (he does so at least twice - once during Chraistmas and the second time when Harry uses the fire to talk to Sirius, after Easter). Snape might have helped Voldemort with information about the dream, but Voldemort could have worked it out from the snake dream he knew Harry had shared.

reminder:
I hope one of the main voices here is backing this up periodically to own hard drive or diskette :o . This is a wonderful, intelligent discussion! :D

Good idea, Mantha, I'll put it with the word document I have saved already. I agree, this is a great discussion, thanks everyone! :D

Very quickly (I'm actually going to be late for a meeting just to get this posted) I'd like to say that this is a great discussion and I am very much in agreement with Solattice's p.o.v. I like what Gallifrey says above also. Occlumency could fall under the category of "Defense against the Dark Arts". So, in some ways, Snape is actually getting an opportunity to teach a subject he has always wanted to teach. Regardless of whether you like his teaching methods or not, he knows he is good at what he does and in his own way, I believe he feels his methods are preparing Harry to face Voldemort.

That's all......gotta RUN!!! :o

Quote, Quote, Quote, Quote, Quote...

Coaching Style #1: You're doing this wrong, that wrong, this wrong, stop, stop, stop. (SNAPE)
Coaching Style #2: [ID my students method flaw, derive an exercise which develops a particular skill] (LUPIN, also HARRY w/DA)

Fighting a dementor is counter to Occlumency. If VM was flanked by Dementors, what would one do?

Perhaps Snape isn't trying to teach Harry any harder than he does during, say, Potions?
It appears that DADA has MAINLY to do with mastering one's emotions. From fighting the Imperius Curse, to Patronis, to Crucio, yes, you have to really hate someone to use it.

Perhaps we should review the quote from Snape about being Ligilimens'd with abserd ease. Perhaps that's what happened to Snape. Of all people who cannot control emotion, Snape has always got ants in his pants.

I'm thinking if we compare this with Barty's "Constant Vigilance" thing, maybe we're seeing Death Eater regrets surfacing in the place where they fell short and succombed to VM?

BTW: GOOD JOB WITH THIS DEBATE EVERYONE!

This truly is a great discussion, I love seeing all the new responses each time I check in on it. :D

Ok, I've been thinking, and one point we don't seem to all agree on (one of the many, to be sure ;)) is whether or not Snape can control his emotions around Voldemort (or Dumbledore). We see him get angry and lose control around Harry on numerous occasions, so what proof is there to indicate he can control his emotions at all? It would be disastrous if he were to lose it around Voldemort, even once (or around Dumbledore, if he's really spying for the DE's). However, we are all almost certain that he must be spying for at least one side, and the highest leaders on each side are both highly skilled Legilimens, right? So shouldn't we assume that Snape is able to empty his mind/control his emotions around at least one of them? Otherwise his disguise would fail and he would condemn himself or whichever side he was spying for. So then why can he control his temper around some people and not others (namely Harry and Sirius)?

On a related note, I wonder who taught Snape Occlumency and Legilimency in the first place? I assume it either has to be Voldemort or Dumbledore (the only two other accomplished Legilimens' we know about). It is virtually certain that both of them know he has the ability, at any rate, as each assumes he is spying for their side. My inclination is that Voldemort taught Snape - the way Snape teaches Occlumency seems more along the lines of how Voldemort would do so, rather than Dumbledore. That is, it's not uncommon to adopt the methods of your own teacher (if they were effective, which we must assume they were in this case, or else Dumbledore wouldn't have picked Snape to be Harry's teacher) when you have to teach the subject yourself, and I can't really see Dumbledore being quite so provocative a teacher.

So assuming Snape was taught by Voldemort, wouldn't he be used to Voldemort's strategies and be able to block them with more ease than he would someone's with which he was less acquainted? This works either way, too, whether he was taught by Voldemort or Dumbledore doesn't matter. My point is, wouldn't he be able to fool his teacher more easily than someone else because he is more accustomed to their method of attack?

Ok, I'm not really getting anywhere on this by myself, so I would love to hear anyone's thoughts or opinions. So...any thoughts or opinions? :D

Snape has problems controlling his emotions in front of SIrius, who he hates, and Harry, who he hates and is obliged to through his father. Maybe he is able to control his emotions in front of Voldemort and/or Dumbledore because he doesn't feel so strongly about them.

I agree. I think that Harry and Sirius are probably the only people that Snape truly has trouble around. They seem to spark a deep, inner rage that goes a long way back and he seems to react with an immature response. Possibly because it dredges up memories from his youth and his gut reaction is to respond as he would have as a youth. Just a theory.

Now, as far as who taught Snape occlumency and legilimency, I have another theory. He could have learned it at home from his father. We already know that Snape knew more dark magic as a first year than most 7th year students. Where would he have learned that from? Most likely from home. We also got a glimpse of his father in the pensieve scene. He strikes me as one who would teach with large doses of ridicule and intimidation. Is it any wonder that Snape's teaching methods are similar? It's just another possibility. Maybe he was introduced to this obscure branch of magic while at home and perfected the skills under either Dumbledore or Voldemort.

That's a good possiblity Bangzoom. Snape had to learn things from someone before he came to Hogwarts. I personnally do not see a first year having taught them selves more curses than what a 7th year would know.

It's strange to see how over powering Snape's own personality is when we see how much his own father's overpowering personality affected himself in the short glimpse of Snape's past. We can probably attribute many of Snape's personalities from his father. At least I fear we will see this in the future. I do wonder about his mother though....she seemed to have a very fearful reaction to Snape's father in the memorry and I wonder why. I hope we see a little more of Snape's childhood in the future to explain somethings. I have a feeling that Snape's mother may not have been around for long or didn't pass many traits on to Snape. I just don't get the impression that she was overbearing where as Snape obviously is.

VM is a user. I don't see him training anyone.
I was thinking that if Snape is a Vampire, then Occlumency goes with the Bella Lugosi thing. However, is Snape in a long line of Vampires? [Can Vampires have families?] But, I agree, Snape probably got this from home.

Not that it is an insite into Snape's skills or powers, but it is a nice use of Irony that Snape new more curses [substitute: Swear Words] than many 7th years. I know I swore like a sailor in my senior year.

As for Snape v. VM: I think that the only people safe around VM are Harry, and DD. Maybe Neville. Surely Snape's anxiety about the DL shows when Harry uses the Name of the DL.

In one of JKR's many interviews, she confirmed that Snape is NOT a vampire. Sorry, can't remember in which one she said it.

This is really interesting, and points to the complexity of this character. The strength of his feelings probably does have to do with it, but it's also the differences in the quality or content of them. For example, we don't know that Voldemort (certainly not Dumbledore) has ever handed him any humiliation, the occurrence or memory of which seems to be what makes him lose it the worst. Also, Snape can afford to lose it with Sirius or Harry (or twit and demean them) because he really has nothing much to fear from doing so. He has a very self-preserving fear of Voldemort and an understanding and respect for his powers that comes from experience most have little of; and he probably has genuine respect (and wariness) for Dumbledore and his powers as well, in addition to indebtedness for protection.
Snape's a Slytherin, and their emotions are predictably tempered by their desire to save their skins.